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Knowing you'll die through pregnancy and still becoming pregnant, taking no methods against I might add, is very much like suicide.

Which is why I pointed out that this is barring a miracle, which a woman might think will happen. Of course, medical anomalies happen all the time, but it's still a huge risk. If you don't have faith that some higher power will prevent this certain death, it's suicide.

Whatever you call it, you're letting yourself die. And using contraception and abstaining from vaginal sex ensure that there's no one to give up your life for in the first place. Why create that situation for yourself, especially if you have kids already who need you more than they need another sibling?

I'm afraid I still can't see the similarities between a selfless sacrafice and a scuicide confused One is letting your self die for another, the other is activly tackign your life. One is done for selfish reasons, the other for selfless. Death seems to be the oly similerity. And in that logic you could say letting your self die of old age with out seeking the fountain of youth is similer to scuicide.

And Zin. SOme people don't beleive in the use of contraceptives. Such a thing should not be looked down upon or held against them. Its their personal beleifes and feel very strongly about them. There are people out there who feel very storngly that the only purpose for sex is to concecrate ones love and to create a child. So, in thathe, they don't use condoms or birth controle.

does it matter if she faced similar problems? the child is still a child, wether she's had one, none or six. each are individuals.

although i understand your point- that she should expect complications in later pregnancies if she had them before- it still doesn't change the fact that it's still a child. or perhaps i missed what you were getting at?

What I mean is...

If I had a baby at those odds, and we both survived and I got to see what that baby was growing into, I wouldn't be able to abort another child under the same conditions. Before I might have wavered, but this time? I wouldn't be able to do it because there's a face, a name, a hug and kiss to put onto that situation. It's a lot easier to abort to save your life when you can detach yourself from the child. If I had a child beforehand that was born under the same circumstances...I wouldn't be able to do it.

I mean...I don't look down on women who abort to save their lives, it's self defense. No one should be forced or coerced to die for the sake of another person. I might do it myself, I don't know. It takes a lot of strength to risk your life for someone else's, especially when you know that your death would hurt others.

If it's stupid and selfish to make the ultimate sacrifice for another human being when you'll be leaving behind a family if things go wrong, then every soldier, every police officer, every firefighter, EVERY person who has ever risked his or her life to save someone else is stupid and selfish.

But sometimes women don't even know they're at risk to die from a pregnancy, or it's a dangerous pregnancy that everyone is at risk for.

There's also no mention of whether or not she was using NFP, which isn't contraception. It does work, not as well as contraception because your timing needs to be pretty much perfect, but it IS trying to avoid pregnancy.

To say that a woman in these situations is stupid for not aborting is belittling her sacrifice. Any parent who dies for his or her child would have to be stupid then, any person who dies for ANYONE would have to be stupid. I know my parents aren't stupid and I also know they'd die for me. So would my fiance. His intelligence can be questioned only in regards to him choosing me to be his lifelong partner, but he would do it if there was no other way to keep me alive, because he loves me. It isn't stupid to love someone more than you love your own life. It's...love.

And like I said...this is way off topic. Waters makes that call since this is her thread, but maybe we should make a new thread about this.

Why are we always drawn as Elephants? I don't see the connection.

I still don't get it...