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 Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:04 am
Not to be rude-- but this isn't Japan. The Lolita trend is gaining some headway in the United States, but this isn't the land where it [as a style, not necessarily its influences] originated from. You can't expect to be able to find Japanese clothing for cheap, or on your doorstep, any more than you should expect to find Italian or French high fashion in Wal-Mart. It's just a fact of life that must be dealt with.
Also, I was trying to open it up with my previous post about skirt length, but I had some issues with phrasing and finding the points I wanted to make. To put it bluntly, I don't have a particular dislike of the Americanisms sometimes seen in Lolita and I've been rather disturbed by the violent dislike of those Americanisms as "Unlolita". Is it because someone found a way to wear the style a differently? Is it purely elitism? Is it because you're afraid that these changes will reflect badly on your own clothing? In what way? Why does that matter?
I do not view the changes that some Americans make to the style as blatently "slutty"; they can be worn that way, yes, but so can any style. Just because you have a skirt to your knees doesn't mean that you're inherently innocent-- a hundred years ago, that would have been seen as absolutely horrendous. By contrast, having a shorter skirt than your knees is not meant to be inherently sexual, either-- at least, not in my opinion. In any case, the Americanization of Lolita styles, as well as the American reception of Japanese style, are of course directly culturally related. You can't reject the responses without rejecting your own culture-- so what do you do?
I believe that a large majority of the reasons that these changes to the style that are often seen in American lolita-inspired, or general lolita clothing are directly related to the very powerful stigma placed on *****. I don't mean that the changes are meant to encourage it, but rather discourage it. I also believe that this accounts for the violent response of Nezumi's security guard. Our social norms dictate that dressing significantly younger or older than your age is not only strange, but inherently perverse. It goes against the ingrained ideals of American society, of gaining your majority and getting to work to support your family and nation.
The age of consent in Japan is sixteen, a good two years younger than in most portions of the United States. Also, their role models and idols [particularly singers, anime characters, and actresses; women who have huge, obsessive followings] often aren't even yet out of middle school, far younger than similar career women in the United States. Granted, there are young singers and actresses in the United States-- obsession over them by adults, however, is seen as distasteful and avoided.
This is not quite true of Japanese society, however. Otakus are frowned on, yes, but there is a huge following of them all the same. A good example of this would be fans of Morning Musume, SweetS or even Berryz Koubou, and the girls themselves. Once they reach a certain age, Morning Musume girls "graduate" and are replaced by girls far younger. Currently, their youngest member is fourteen [or perhaps fifteen, now. I'm not sure when her birthday falls; [edit]: A new member was just added. I think she's 13. o_o]-- she started when she was thirteen and was dressed, made-up, and told to behave, sing and dance as an adult. SweetS debuted as twelve-year-olds [I believe, they may have been a year older or younger, but no more than that] wearing booty shorts, short skirts, and tight shirts-- none of this was seen as "wrong" in Japan. Aa!, who debuted even younger [while one of their vocalists was eight], started off singing love ballads about first kisses, long drives with boyfriends, and so on. Once again, these young girls were praised for their behavior. Berryz Koubou was of a similar age. Japanese society sees very little [if anything at all] wrong with this. Does anyone remember how shocked people were when Briney Spears came out as a singer in naughty school girl attire? Imagine girls almost ten years younger being accepted in those clothes.
Koda Kumi is not a child performer in Japan, and she is best known in the United States at the moment for singing Real Emotion and 1000 Words, among other video game releases. Her songs are often filled with sexual emotion and innuendo, and her dances [both on stage and in her videos] are more than just a little bit provocative. Put bluntly, she makes Britney Spears look like a good schoolgirl, rather than a naughty one. Now that the background is out of the way, I'd like to discuss Chibikko Erokawa. A dance contest was held this summer for young girls called Chibikko Erokawa, and aired publicly all over Japan. Note the title, particularly erokawa-- "cute but sexy". In this contest, girls between the ages of two and twelve were dressed up to look "cute but sexy" with fishnets, booty shorts, cropped tops revealing their chests, and high-healed boots. They then danced routines to Koda Kumi's songs.
A five-year-old wearing more make-up than I have owned in my life, and dressed as a miniature of Koda Kumi, did a solo routine to "Cutie Honey" complete with leg-spreading and shimmying her rear-end in front of the judges. You can see her costume in this video. She's wearing the black outfit shown on Koda Kumi about two-thirds through, complete with thigh-high boots and hair. Koda Kumi seemed to be the only one shocked by the show, and constantly was trying to cover her responses with awkward laughter and a hand over her mouth. The judges, hosts, predominantly male audience and even the parents of these girls were entirely unfazed. Most were oohing and aahing openly. Obviously, Americans aren't the only parents dressing their six-year-olds up as skanks-- the only phenomenon I have seen that is similar to this show is child pageants, and they are far, far tamer than this contest was. It has since been removed from YouTube for its explicit nature [which is notable in and of itself, as YouTube is run by predominantly Americans], so I don't have examples of it.
Another idea that goes along with this American stigma on ***** is age-concept. Generally, women who try to dress or behave younger than their age are frowned upon as deceitful. The only industries that this is really encouraged in relate to pornography [where all girls are advertised as "barely legal"]. By comparison, much of Japanese women's culture revolves around remaining youthful to the point of ridiculous, along with the development of "kawaii culture" since the end of WWII [kawaii culture, involving things like Sanrio, insane materialism devoted to the "cute"]. There are particular products [clothing in particular, foods and health tonics as well] targetted towards young women to help them keep a childlike figure and face. This, along with the treatment of Japanese idols and entertainers, indicates to me that the "ideal" age is a middle-teen to young adult.
This behavior and this look are not quite the ideals that American women traditionally aspire to. Looking at the women we are "meant" to be like, models, our mothers, aunts, and grandmothers, the ideal is closer to being elegant and grown up. Youthful, but not obsessively so. Often, this goes hand-in-hand with "sexy". It is not wrong, nothing cultural is ever "wrong" except when looked at from another point of view; it just does not suit the strictures of Lolita.
All of these factors, adding to the fact that Americans generally don't have the figures to look youthful and childlike beyond puberty [majority of us have European backgrounds which leads to broad hips, as opposed to the stereotypical, hipless Asian figure], have led to further enhancing the Americanisms already mentioned. Personally, I haven't had a girlish figure since high school, something that is at least encouraged by the styles that Lolita dresses and skirts are cut in. Neither have any of my friends kept their hips narrow or their breasts flattened, short of the exercise-obsessed athletes. Because of this, I tend to wear my skirts a bit shorter and with less of a bell shape, and my tops more form accentuating. I see no point in hiding what is there with ribbons and ruffles, as it would look far more ridiculous than using my own figure to my best advantage.
[Note: I'm simply stating all of this for the sake of discussion. I do not condone the "skanking out" of little girls by anyone, I'm merely citing examples to make my point, and I'm not meaning to start a huge fight-- just trying to show the other side of the discussion.]
[Side note: I'm amused by the comments about Americans being cruel to people who are different when our country is one of the most diverse nations in the world-- especially compared to the Japanese. There's a motto in Japan relating to differences which is very similar to "If the nail sticks out, hammer it in".
Foreigners have more respect there, now, than they used to. It wasn't always that way-- and it's still nearly impossible to live there, nevermind become a citizen, without being Japanese from birth.]
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:00 pm
wow long post. your right. i should stop wh9ining though.......................... crying but i wihs that America was more like Japan. My dream is to go there one day. Im just saying why do people think its bad? WHY? i know that someone in this guild voted that it is bad in the poll... domokun they do use the style in a different wya. but in a bad way. and so many people i guess know that other way the most. but now they also think that the lolita style we all know from Japan is bad.
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:43 pm
No country is what it's cracked up to be. The United States has problems, but we definitely have a lot more social freedom than people in Japan do.
Because of that, I highly doubt that you really wish that the United States was more like Japan. I really do. It's a neat country, sure, but its society is very, very restricting and repressed. A good number of my friends have gone to Japan both for vacations and to study, and the general opinion that all of them have brought back is "great country to visit, s**t to live in". Most of this centers on the fact that Japan is still a very, very close-minded nation in terms of diversity of culture and race.
One friend said that he was rarely treated with respect for his first three months there and that, even after that, he was often ignored. Another cited her expenses to me and mentioned that since she didn't have a work visa, she couldn't get a job and had to constantly write and phone home about rent and food expenditures. Rather disgruntled, she admitted that she had heavy doubts that she would have been able to even find work, given the social norms.
Yet another is going to go back and live in Japan, but only because he met a girl there. He said that if he had his choice, he would bring her to the US but that he feels guilty taking her from her family into a country where she doesn't speak the language. He also mentioned to me that the best place for foreigners is Tokyo simply because there are so many of us-- in smaller towns and rural areas, even though he speaks Japanese fluently, he was often unable to ask anyone for directions because they often would simply ignore him. He also mentioned a few cases of open dislike and insults from Japanese people simply because of his race.
The most amusing story he told me was of a WWII memorial he visited. In English and Japanese both, there were signs saying that the United States had taken over Hawaii and dragged Japan into the war, forcing them to reclaim their rightful ownership of the island. Interesting perspective, huh?
Anyhow, going back to the idea of Americans seeing lolita as bad or perverse-- that's just how culture works. I was trying to show that with examples of things that we would normally frown upon as being normal in Japanese society. I suppose it wasn't clear enough, for all its length.
My main point is this: In Japan, a youthful appearance [teenage or so] is considered to be attractive and appealing. Because of this, fashion [including Lolita] caters to the ideal. In the United States, this ideal is considered to be wrong due to cultural standards and norms-- hence why people think that lolita might be "slutty" or "perverted". This isn't just because of naughty maids or schoolgirls, though that influence is there-- it's also because of the fact that fashion is a way of drawing attention to yourself. Fashion which makes you look younger [child-like or doll-like] naturally [in the eyes of American culture] points to a desire to attract ***** or points to a ***** attraction towards younger people in the one wearing the clothing. We ourselves know that this is not true, but at the same time, that's just how cultural influences work. Generalizations take a long time to be changed, especially in regards to fashion.
If that's not clear enough, I'll reverse it a bit-- there was previously talk about "preps" in a negative light in this thread. Generalizations were made that they are all the same, all mindless zombies dressing in Abercrombie or Hollister clothing. Only one person thought to mention a particular girl [granted, I was highly amused to read that her descriptor was that she was Asian], rather than a stereotype, and no one thought to mention just what it is that's wrong about the preppy clothes aside from the fact that they label you as preppy with brand names. Because of how preppy attire is viewed, a stereotype forms. The same is so for Lolita clothing. People see a lolita behave in an unseemly fashion [stomping on toes, I believe is a good example considering that it already appeared in this thread-- or perhaps the mocking of cheerleaders who might potentially harm themselves; neither is in good taste or manners, and I am rather disgusted that anyone would brag of such behavior] and so a negative image is formed in their minds and linked to the style of clothing-- and there you have it.
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:12 pm
boconnotto
If that's not clear enough, I'll reverse it a bit-- there was previously talk about "preps" in a negative light in this thread. Generalizations were made that they are all the same, all mindless zombies dressing in Abercrombie or Hollister clothing. Only one person thought to mention a particular girl [granted, I was highly amused to read that her descriptor was that she was Asian], rather than a stereotype, and no one thought to mention just what it is that's wrong about the preppy clothes aside from the fact that they label you as preppy with brand names. Because of how preppy attire is viewed, a stereotype forms. The same is so for Lolita clothing. People see a lolita behave in an unseemly fashion [stomping on toes, I believe is a good example considering that it already appeared in this thread-- or perhaps the mocking of cheerleaders who might potentially harm themselves; neither is in good taste or manners, and I am rather disgusted that anyone would brag of such behavior] and so a negative image is formed in their minds and linked to the style of clothing-- and there you have it.
What I was trying to say, only worded much better. :3 Despite how others treat you, it's always best to be polite and kind. It really will get you far. Maybe you won't see results as fast as you'd like, but you will see them.
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:30 pm
|x| Smells so good.
I don’t think it’s America’s fault. Yes, most things like geishas and Lolita do have a bad name, but it is mostly because people don’t understand. I’m sure if you asked me what a Lolita was from what I’ve only heard from others, I would say that it’s something provocative and not meant for public eyes, but since I’ve looked into it, I can see that it’s very different than that.
It depends on the person and what information is available to them. Lumping all of America together is almost as bad as when people lump all of Japan together.
It's so delicious. |x|
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Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:09 pm
[.Nai-Kyo.] |x|Smells so good.
I don’t think it’s America’s fault. Yes, most things like geishas and Lolita do have a bad name, but it is mostly because people don’t understand. I’m sure if you asked me what a Lolita was from what I’ve only heard from others, I would say that it’s something provocative and not meant for public eyes, but since I’ve looked into it, I can see that it’s very different than that.
It depends on the person and what information is available to them. Lumping all of America together is almost as bad as when people lump all of Japan together.
It's so delicious. |x| yesh true. America is not the only place. Every other countries have their problems and bad things too. I guess that some humans just are that way.....
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Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:41 pm
i agree with the gwen stephani thing completely, but also in stores *cough*hottopic*cough* has lead people to belive that all lolita dresses are spagetti strap, low cut and have a length of under 12 inches. they slap a lolita label just to sell things and sadly people are dumb enough to belive it...plus people tend to think lolita complex and the dictionary definition of lolita, not the fashion....
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Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:27 pm
The main issue is letting people know that our idea of loli fashion is not the dictionary one. -_-
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:05 am
parfaitsama The main issue is letting people know that our idea of loli fashion is not the dictionary one. -_- that was what i was getting at, i was saying when people hear lolita in the states they think of the dictionary definition---which is only one definition of lolita
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:38 pm
PatchWorkAlice parfaitsama The main issue is letting people know that our idea of loli fashion is not the dictionary one. -_- that was what i was getting at, i was saying when people hear lolita in the states they think of the dictionary definition---which is only one definition of lolita that sucks... stare
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:37 pm
ponytacute79894 PatchWorkAlice parfaitsama The main issue is letting people know that our idea of loli fashion is not the dictionary one. -_- that was what i was getting at, i was saying when people hear lolita in the states they think of the dictionary definition---which is only one definition of lolita that sucks... stare The guild should get together and publish our own Loli dictionary. XD
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:47 am
Nezumi Kakashi ponytacute79894 PatchWorkAlice parfaitsama The main issue is letting people know that our idea of loli fashion is not the dictionary one. -_- that was what i was getting at, i was saying when people hear lolita in the states they think of the dictionary definition---which is only one definition of lolita that sucks... stare The guild should get together and publish our own Loli dictionary. XD yeah that would be nice. but dont you think that it would be pretty small?
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:08 am
Americanized lolita is dirty, slutty, and disgusting.
Real lolita is very beautiful and modest. Not slutty or icky at all.
Silly Americans.
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:37 pm
ponytacute79894 Nezumi Kakashi ponytacute79894 PatchWorkAlice parfaitsama The main issue is letting people know that our idea of loli fashion is not the dictionary one. -_- that was what i was getting at, i was saying when people hear lolita in the states they think of the dictionary definition---which is only one definition of lolita that sucks... stare The guild should get together and publish our own Loli dictionary. XD yeah that would be nice. but dont you think that it would be pretty small? nah, we could include a bunch of old English terms and stuff that are more eloquent than contemporary English. That could fill up quite a bit of space. ^-^ And probably ettiquette terms and stuff. We just need to be creative. wink
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:33 pm
Nezumi Kakashi ponytacute79894 Nezumi Kakashi ponytacute79894 PatchWorkAlice parfaitsama The main issue is letting people know that our idea of loli fashion is not the dictionary one. -_- that was what i was getting at, i was saying when people hear lolita in the states they think of the dictionary definition---which is only one definition of lolita that sucks... stare The guild should get together and publish our own Loli dictionary. XD yeah that would be nice. but dont you think that it would be pretty small? nah, we could include a bunch of old English terms and stuff that are more eloquent than contemporary English. That could fill up quite a bit of space. ^-^ And probably ettiquette terms and stuff. We just need to be creative. wink That would be prettycool if we did make one..... then maybe we can add some other stuff like different kinds of Loli clothes and didfferent brands. 3nodding
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