Why are you insulting TKD?

[Keyboard Warrior]

I can name two arts that have much more powerful kicks than TKD.

Kyokushinkai and MUAY THAI.

Speed doesn't mean s**t if you don't have the power to back it up.  

[Shuma-Gorath]

Keyboard Warrior

I can name two arts that have much more powerful kicks than TKD.

Kyokushinkai and MUAY THAI.

Speed doesn't mean s**t if you don't have the power to back it up.

Exactly.  

[Keyboard Warrior]

Just to add on to what I just stated:

Speed and POWER also don't mean s**t if you're not willing to test them out in an alive, resistant manner.

WTF TKD, though they have somewhat full contact sparring, lacks in the fact that they don't allow kicking below the waist, de-emphasizes hand techniques, doesn't allow kneeing(even though KNEES are in at least one poomse...Taegeuk Chil-Jong/6th, to be exact), and encourage very very bad habits(i.e. keeping hands down, kicking high, improper blocking of high kicks, etc.).


ATA is worse, as they endorse the karate point sparring system. ITF....varies, sometimes an ITF school will endorse full contact while others will adopt the point sparring system.

Of course, on occasion, you do run into independent TKD schools that endorse full contact training which resembles kickboxing more than anything. These, however, are far and few between.  

[Shuma-Gorath]

Keyboard Warrior

Just to add on to what I just stated:

Speed and POWER also don't mean s**t if you're not willing to test them out in an alive, resistant manner.

WTF TKD, though they have somewhat full contact sparring, lacks in the fact that they don't allow kicking below the waist, de-emphasizes hand techniques, doesn't allow kneeing(even though KNEES are in at least one poomse...Taegeuk Chil-Jong/6th, to be exact), and encourage very very bad habits(i.e. keeping hands down, kicking high, improper blocking of high kicks, etc.).


ATA is worse, as they endorse the karate point sparring system. ITF....varies, sometimes an ITF school will endorse full contact while others will adopt the point sparring system.

Of course, on occasion, you do run into independent TKD schools that endorse full contact training which resembles kickboxing more than anything. These, however, are far and few between.

In other words, WTF and ITF's ruleset needs to change, other then that, they are alive arts. ATA sucks though.  

[ninja.ace]

It also depends on what type of TKD though. Some types focus more on speed and 'showy' stuff. Some of the more traditional ones focus on the strength and technique.  

[metro_spike]

Keyboard Warrior

I can name two arts that have much more powerful kicks than TKD.

Kyokushinkai and MUAY THAI.

Speed doesn't mean s**t if you don't have the power to back it up.

TaeKwonDo doesn't have THE most powerful kicks, but they are better than most. And even IF Muay Thai and kyokushinkai have more powerful kicks, how many people will you ever meet who are fighters of that system?
Also, from what I have been able to find about kyokushinkai, it's not the style that has strong kicks, it's the emphasis on a strong body and emphasis on both knocking down an opponent and intense sparring regimens. That is not to say it doesn't have strong kicks, only that I could not find a credible source to substantiate a claim like that.

The formula to calculate how much power a strike would have is the formula for kinetic energy, which is (1/2)*m*(v*v), or one half mass velocity squared.
Obviously, velocity plays a larger role than just having more mass. Because if your strike doesn't hit first, and their strike knocks you out, it doesn't really matter how much more mass you have, does it? ^_^
Because a blade of grass have very low mass, but penetrates nearly anything in its path when given velocity by a tornado. =/  

[Keyboard Warrior]

metro_spike

Keyboard Warrior

I can name two arts that have much more powerful kicks than TKD.

Kyokushinkai and MUAY THAI.

Speed doesn't mean s**t if you don't have the power to back it up.

TaeKwonDo doesn't have THE most powerful kicks, but they are better than most. And even IF Muay Thai and kyokushinkai have more powerful kicks, how many people will you ever meet who are fighters of that system?
Also, from what I have been able to find about kyokushinkai, it's not the style that has strong kicks, it's the emphasis on a strong body and emphasis on both knocking down an opponent and intense sparring regimens. That is not to say it doesn't have strong kicks, only that I could not find a credible source to substantiate a claim like that.

The formula to calculate how much power a strike would have is the formula for kinetic energy, which is (1/2)*m*(v*v), or one half mass velocity squared.
Obviously, velocity plays a larger role than just having more mass. Because if your strike doesn't hit first, and their strike knocks you out, it doesn't really matter how much more mass you have, does it? ^_^
Because a blade of grass have very low mass, but penetrates nearly anything in its path when given velocity by a tornado. =/

I've met many people who have taken Muay Thai at one point in their lives....of course I live in San Diego County, CA which has quite a few Muay Thai gyms located in the various counties(i.e. Oceanside, CA where I trained). Meh, I guess it depends on where you live. I happen to live in an area where MMA and full contact arts are quite popular(along side the McDojos, McKwoons, and McDojos).

And the thing with Muay Thai inherently having a more powerful round-house is the fact that the style employs full hip movement as opposed to the typical quick snap and back roundhouses used by most Tae Kwon Doka. TKD roundhouses may have the potential to becoming a forceful kick....but are still limited compared to Thai roundhouses. The fact that muay thai uses the shin instead of the instep is another factor in its kicking effectiveness and power.

TKD itself is not a flawed style, its the training regimen which the typical WTF or ITF school endorses that weakens the name of Tae Kwon Do. If they trained like kyokushinkai karateka or thai stylists(i.e. fuller contact and stricter conditioning) I've no doubt that they'd fair well against more hardened styles. Until the WTF wisen up or the ITF standardizes its dojangs to include full contact training, mainstream TKD is gonna continue to crap out.

I've no hope for the ATA, though....they're just looney and cult like.  

[TaeKyon]

*Yawn* Still haven't learned I see...

Wolf3001

I have problems with martial arts being watered down for sport this can go for any style not just TKD

What about martial arts that are watered down for "traditional" purposes aka "ancient martial arts techniques too dangerous to be used in practice" or the cliched traditional MA cough out excuse for why they don't utilize alive training? Honest to god, there are very few if not any martial arts still around being practiced in the same manner that they were originally introduced so claiming martial arts are watered down is a moot point.

Wolf3001

A lot of TKD and Karate schools I have seen do point sparring I do not like this form of sparring because it's too unrealistic you get a point and back off this is how most of the schools are around here in my area.

As I've pointed out before, and as you apparently did not pay any attention to and thus require me to repeat yet again, you're spectrum and understanding of TKD sparring is narrow and skewed. Your generalized description of point sparring where after each point is awarded you "back off" depicts NASKA style tag point sparring, hardly similar to the WTF style of Olympic sparring in TKD which is the most prevalent and widely recognized style of TKD. Nor is it compatable with knockdown karate or full contact Karate. Yes I will agree, and have agreed with you, on the opinion that tag point sparring is a joke, if you're going to disrespect a form of sparring then you're entitled to dislike NASKA style sparring for the reasons you hold, but don't ignorantly believe that that form of sparring is representative of all of TKD especially after I've corrected you before on this s**t.

Wolf3001

I feel a lot of people get hurt training in such schools. I have read stories of martial artist geting kicked around by untrained street punks in most cases these martial artist had never trained in a reality based school.

There is always a danger with full contact sparring but considering that most forms of full contact sparring utilizes at the very least minimal padded protective gear, injuries from training could be a lot worse. As for martial artists who get worked in a street fight, it's not because they don't train in RBSD MAs, it's because they train in MA's that don't stress alive training (RBSD schools ironically being a similar culprit). It's the delivery system of a style which makes a martial art better transitionally to a self defense situation, someone who's more accustomed to using his techniques against a resisting and alive opponent will be more accustomed to being able to deliver his techniques in a real situation, even if it means sparring with a bunch of protective gear in a sporting contest.

nightwing773

martial arts shouldn't be just for sport in my view, it should be at least practical.

What's practical about learning a Traditional Martial Art for street self defense or "combat"? Learning TMA styles such as chinese weapon forms for instance isn't "practical" in the same sense as they originally were when they were legitimately used in warfare. Sports are a form of evolution for martial arts that gives an obsolete form of warfare a legitimate practical outlet in modern society.

metro_spike

It is quite thrilling, but point-sparring is annoying as can be because there is no chance for setting your opponent up, so I don't approve of it at ALL.

Please elucidate on how point sparring has no opportunities for setting your opponent up, as I seriously beg to differ.

Keyboard Warrior

I can name two arts that have much more powerful kicks than TKD.

Kyokushinkai and MUAY THAI.

Speed doesn't mean s**t if you don't have the power to back it up.

Note that Metro Spike didn't say anything about TKD kicks being the most powerful means of kicking

Metro Spike

However, in my experience, Olympic-style TaeKwonDo has much faster kicks than any other art. That is not to say it is BETTER, but the kicks' speed are no joke.

...He was instead discussing speed. I would also like to point out the fact that speed DOES mean s**t, it means quite a bit in fact, and that it's theoretically possible for a TKD fighter to throw a kick with equal and possibly more force than a Muay Thai fighter or Kyokushin fighter, basic understanding of Newton's 2nd law of physics (Force = Mass X Acceleration) proves this.

Keyboard Warrior

WTF TKD, though they have somewhat full contact sparring, lacks in the fact that they don't allow kicking below the waist, de-emphasizes hand techniques, doesn't allow kneeing(even though KNEES are in at least one poomse...Taegeuk Chil-Jong/6th, to be exact), and encourage very very bad habits(i.e. keeping hands down, kicking high, improper blocking of high kicks, etc.).

The fact that WTF TKD has a restricting ruleset that emphasizes fast kicking techniques does not disqualify the fact that WTF TKD is still an alive martial art/sport and trained as one. Consider boxing, which doesn't allow kicks or headbutts or punches or any strikes for that manner below the waist; boxing is still an alive sport and trains in an alive and resistant manner. Consider wrestling, which doesn't allow any sort of punching or kicking or kneeing or striking in general, still an alive sport and trained in an alive manner. Same for BJJ...Same for even MMA which doesn't allow headbutting and "dirty" strikes, still an alive martial art/sport. Just because there are rules that dictate and emphasize certain unique aspects of a martial art or sport (such as TKD emphasizes fighting with the feet, boxing emphasizing fighting w/ the hands, or in terms of sports, soccer/football emphasizing dribbling w/ the feet rather than dribbling with the hands as in basketball) doesn't necessarily lessen a martial art/sport nor does it disqualify it as an alive martial art/sport.

Metro Spike

The formula to calculate how much power a strike would have is the formula for kinetic energy, which is (1/2)*m*(v*v), or one half m*** velocity squared.
Obviously, velocity plays a larger role than just having more m***. Because if your strike doesn't hit first, and their strike knocks you out, it doesn't really matter how much more m*** you have, does it? ^_^
Because a blade of gr*** have very low m***, but penetrates nearly anything in its path when given velocity by a tornado. =/

Close...not quite...Kinetic Energy is just the amount of energy required to do work, work being what happens when a force acts on an object and displacement occurs.

Keyboard Warrior

And the thing with Muay Thai inherently having a more powerful round-house is the fact that the style employs full hip movement as opposed to the typical quick snap and back roundhouses used by most Tae Kwon Doka. TKD roundhouses may have the potential to becoming a forceful kick....but are still limited compared to Thai roundhouses. The fact that muay thai uses the shin instead of the instep is another factor in its kicking effectiveness and power.

My understanding is this: In it's most basic form, F=ma, note that mass and acceleration are inversely proportional. With the MT kick you do apply more mass to the force of your kick by throwing more of your body into the kick in the form of the rotation of your hips as well as the larger mass from the impact area of your shins; however, while MT RHK kicks aren't sluggish or slow by any means, but the kick does have less acceleration because the kick has more mass (M is inverseley proportional to A), and because the kick has a larger distance to travel (Aceleration equals change in velocity over change in time, if the kick starts from rest, change in velocity equals velocity and velocity equals displacement over time). The chambered TKD kick however has smaller mass because there is less mass being thrown into the rotation of the hips and less mass in the instep of the foot (which inversely affects acceleration because it's easier to accelerate a smaller mass than to accelerate a larger mass) but also a faster acceleration due to a smaller distance because the distance is streamlined with the chambering of the kick. It's a lot more complicated than that I'm sure as it's most likely a number of factors that involve rotational components (which are mostly just variations in Newton's 2nd Law) and momentum but in general, the TKD RHK generates a greater magnitude of Force from a greater Acceleration while the MT RHK generates a greater magnitude of Force from a greater mass (note also the F=ma thus mass and aceleration are inversely proportional).

Anyway, this was entertaining enough...I am now off for my morning jog.  

[Keyboard Warrior]

metro_spike

I doubt anyone outside of TKD trains as much with their kicks, so I would say it is a safe assumption to say that a good TKD artist definitely has stronger kicks.

This is what I was commenting on earlier, TaeKyon.

And touche on your definition of aliveness. Though I did say that WTF is alive, just not to the extent as other arts(though neither is boxing, yet they still manage to kick...er, punch a**). I guess my BIGGEST beef with the WTF isn't the sparring ruleset, but the politics and seemingly false history they spew regarding TKD's origins.

Also, I agree that speed is very important factor...but so is power. What's the point of having speed if you can't back it up with power?


And your description of a Muay Thai roundhouse hurts my brain, so I'll just assume that you're right.  

[metro_spike]

Keyboard Warrior

metro_spike

Keyboard Warrior

I can name two arts that have much more powerful kicks than TKD.

Kyokushinkai and MUAY THAI.

Speed doesn't mean s**t if you don't have the power to back it up.

TaeKwonDo doesn't have THE most powerful kicks, but they are better than most. And even IF Muay Thai and kyokushinkai have more powerful kicks, how many people will you ever meet who are fighters of that system?
Also, from what I have been able to find about kyokushinkai, it's not the style that has strong kicks, it's the emphasis on a strong body and emphasis on both knocking down an opponent and intense sparring regimens. That is not to say it doesn't have strong kicks, only that I could not find a credible source to substantiate a claim like that.

The formula to calculate how much power a strike would have is the formula for kinetic energy, which is (1/2)*m*(v*v), or one half mass velocity squared.
Obviously, velocity plays a larger role than just having more mass. Because if your strike doesn't hit first, and their strike knocks you out, it doesn't really matter how much more mass you have, does it? ^_^
Because a blade of grass have very low mass, but penetrates nearly anything in its path when given velocity by a tornado. =/

I've met many people who have taken Muay Thai at one point in their lives....of course I live in San Diego County, CA which has quite a few Muay Thai gyms located in the various counties(i.e. Oceanside, CA where I trained). Meh, I guess it depends on where you live. I happen to live in an area where MMA and full contact arts are quite popular(along side the McDojos, McKwoons, and McDojos).

And the thing with Muay Thai inherently having a more powerful round-house is the fact that the style employs full hip movement as opposed to the typical quick snap and back roundhouses used by most Tae Kwon Doka. TKD roundhouses may have the potential to becoming a forceful kick....but are still limited compared to Thai roundhouses. The fact that muay thai uses the shin instead of the instep is another factor in its kicking effectiveness and power.

TKD itself is not a flawed style, its the training regimen which the typical WTF or ITF school endorses that weakens the name of Tae Kwon Do. If they trained like kyokushinkai karateka or thai stylists(i.e. fuller contact and stricter conditioning) I've no doubt that they'd fair well against more hardened styles. Until the WTF wisen up or the ITF standardizes its dojangs to include full contact training, mainstream TKD is gonna continue to crap out.

I've no hope for the ATA, though....they're just looney and cult like.

We must just be talking about different ideas entirely, you about weeaboo, blackbelt-wannabe sport TKD, and me about the kind of sparring I am used to at my TaeKwonDo school.
Because TaeKwonDo only has a front-aimed snap kick, there are no round snap kicks. We are taught that power derives from kick just slightly past the intended striking area. Hip and waist rotation is key to be able to kick fast enough, and reaction time is the training we do.
Kyokushinkai is not what I'd call mainstream, at least not in the United States. Muay Thai is more known, but the true practices of it that you seem to be referring to are also not common in the United States, because most people lack the drive and determination to do the things traditional Muay Thai considers standard, i.e. deadening of the nerves of the shins and elbows by kicking things like banana trees. Ironically enough, banana trees are common in Florida, so I kick them when I am looking for something to mix up my training. And in my particular style of TKD, elbows and knees strikes are allowed, but you have to show controlled force with all your blows, such as not punching or elbowing to the face, no hits on the back of the body, and no groin or knee kicks. Kicking to the thighs is fine, but will score you no points, and we are not a point-spar school, so I have good stamina compartively to a school a friend of mine attends, although his kicks are definitely faster. And a round kick with the shin as the striking surface isn't as strong, it just has the ridge of the shin bone as a more damaging factor. The kick is practically the same, it all depends on who is doing the kicking.


I guess the main thing I advocate is intelligence of the martial artist. If the martial artist is willingly sparring under a set of rules, s/he should at least make him/herself aware of those rules and be able to adapt their mindset to that way of sparring. WTF and ITF have sport-sparring rules for tournaments, but our school and possibly the style we practice has it's own in-house sparring rules. We are just taught that things are not always the same everywhere you go, such as Open tournaments that allow hits to the throat and other places we are not allowed to purposely strike, such as some chinese martial styles in my area do.

It just blows me away that people criticize in a narrow-minded fashion like bashing TKD in general, when Karate and Kung Fu are under the same scrutiny about being watered-down in America, yet I do not hear you saying anything about those. Even your Kyokushinkai has several branches and offshoots because they can't agree on "original style" and other things like paid fights and things of that nature. =/  

[metro_spike]

(sorry for double-posting x_x)

TaeKyon

metro_spike

It is quite thrilling, but point-sparring is annoying as can be because there is no chance for setting your opponent up, so I don't approve of it at ALL.

Please elucidate on how point sparring has no opportunities for setting your opponent up, as I seriously beg to differ.

Sorry, I should not have said "no chance" in such restrictive, definite terms. I guess I am saying that there is less emphasis on the fighters mental abilities and knowledge of fighting, because fights are not settled one point at a time. Over the duration of a 3 minute match, the opponent can be set up for a much larger attack then he can if you cannot sacrifice taking a hit to execute it on him...unless it's executed as a counter or a simultaneous exchange, something of that sort. I like the chess type of feel of sparring I get in my own school, whereas I feel restricted in a point-sparring system. Although it's not completely a bad thing, because it can help me to grow by forcing me into a situation I am not used to where I have to think on my feet in circumstances I am not accustomed to being under. ^_^


Keyboard, what's the point in powerful kicks if your opponent hits you first?
I understand you always have that hidden trump of a one-kick comeback, but if the opponent is always faster...it's much more difficult to pull that off.
Again though, I am caught in my own words. I shouldn't have narrowed it no one outside of TaeKwonDo, but that most others styles have stronger emphasis on upper-body weapons first, kicks second. TaeKwonDo aims at stopping your opponent at your maximum effective range, and have your hands waiting for him if he can make it through your kicks. > biggrin  

[Keyboard Warrior]

Oh, don't get me started on mainstream CMA(Chinese Martial Arts aka "kung fu") and the pussified karate styles(aside from Kyokushinkai and its offshoots). That's great that your dojang encourages leg kicks and such. Like I previously said, its the organizations that are giving TKD a bad name. If all dojangs trained in the fashion that you described, I wouldn't criticize it so much.

Also, you don't need to kick banana trees to reap the benefits of muay thai conditioning. People who think the Thais prefer to kick such things over a nice heavy bag have watched "Kickboxer" way too many times. Kicking a heavy bag over and over and over again will produce the same conditioning and nerve deadening as if you were to kick a tree...plus its a lot safer. Of course one must always increase their calcium intake before doing this so you can strengthen your bones(hence why MY kru urged all new students to go and purchase calcium pills).


Ah how I wish kyokushinkai was more mainstream....then maybe I'd be able to find a place that teaches around here. Oh well, I got nothing to complain about seeing as how there is a Brazilian Jujitsu gym less than 10 miles away from me...and they do MMA, too. Can't wait to get into that...but I digress.  

[Keyboard Warrior]

metro_spike

(sorry for double-posting x_x)

TaeKyon

metro_spike

It is quite thrilling, but point-sparring is annoying as can be because there is no chance for setting your opponent up, so I don't approve of it at ALL.

Please elucidate on how point sparring has no opportunities for setting your opponent up, as I seriously beg to differ.

Sorry, I should not have said "no chance" in such restrictive, definite terms. I guess I am saying that there is less emphasis on the fighters mental abilities and knowledge of fighting, because fights are not settled one point at a time. Over the duration of a 3 minute match, the opponent can be set up for a much larger attack then he can if you cannot sacrifice taking a hit to execute it on him...unless it's executed as a counter or a simultaneous exchange, something of that sort. I like the chess type of feel of sparring I get in my own school, whereas I feel restricted in a point-sparring system. Although it's not completely a bad thing, because it can help me to grow by forcing me into a situation I am not used to where I have to think on my feet in circumstances I am not accustomed to being under. ^_^


Keyboard, what's the point in powerful kicks if your opponent hits you first?
I understand you always have that hidden trump of a one-kick comeback, but if the opponent is always faster...it's much more difficult to pull that off.
Again though, I am caught in my own words. I shouldn't have narrowed it no one outside of TaeKwonDo, but that most others styles have stronger emphasis on upper-body weapons first, kicks second. TaeKwonDo aims at stopping your opponent at your maximum effective range, and have your hands waiting for him if he can make it through your kicks. > biggrin

Again, I understand the importance of speed but I also recognize the importance of power behind a fast kick. An example: Mirko Filipovic. He's a Croatian kickboxer turned MMA fighter who can lift his leg up like a jab AND ko you with it. He's got speed AND power.  

[metro_spike]

Keyboard Warrior

Oh, don't get me started on mainstream CMA(Chinese Martial Arts aka "kung fu") and the pussified karate styles(aside from Kyokushinkai and its offshoots). That's great that your dojang encourages leg kicks and such. Like I previously said, its the organizations that are giving TKD a bad name. If all dojangs trained in the fashion that you described, I wouldn't criticize it so much.

Also, you don't need to kick banana trees to reap the benefits of muay thai conditioning. People who think the Thais prefer to kick such things over a nice heavy bag have watched "Kickboxer" way too many times. Kicking a heavy bag over and over and over again will produce the same conditioning and nerve deadening as if you were to kick a tree...plus its a lot safer. Of course one must always increase their calcium intake before doing this so you can strengthen your bones(hence why MY kru urged all new students to go and purchase calcium pills).


Ah how I wish kyokushinkai was more mainstream....then maybe I'd be able to find a place that teaches around here. Oh well, I got nothing to complain about seeing as how there is a Brazilian Jujitsu gym less than 10 miles away from me...and they do MMA, too. Can't wait to get into that...but I digress.

Uhm, I don't see how you stereotyping TKD is any different from how most Americans stereotype martial arts in general. O_o
So it only seems fair that an idea of "absurdly labelled martial arts in america", then that would include karate and CMA as well, unfortunately.

Well, I don't think kicking a sandbag has the same effect on bone growth as kicking banana trees, but if it were a canvas bag, and most are, then it would definitely tough the skin and prevent it from tearing. I kick bags more than anything else, but for centuries martial artists have punched dense objects because of the change in bone density, and I don't think sandbags have that effect really. At least, not to such a degree.
It might just take a lot longer if you kick a sandbag, but that's why they kick trees: takes less time.

Kyokushinkai seems like something I'd be interested in, as I am more of a linear fighter and less of a circular one. I'd like to broaden my area of knowledge, and if kyokushinkai has good kicks it might be a little easier transition. Sadly enough, there are probably no schools anywhere near here. x_x



Also, I see your point. Two fighters with the same kicking speed...the one with more power definitely has an advantage. But to get my leg moving fast, and to be able to do it many times, and keep my stamina up so I don't lose my footwork...power kinda creeps in with all of the other training. Maybe not the same level of power as some, but still formidable. ^_^  

[Keyboard Warrior]

My "stereotyping" of TKD is based on experience in the art, so in that case it is different from how most Americans generalize the arts.

And I don't understand why this whole myth about the Thais preferring banana trees to heavy bags keeps coming up. At any reputable gym in Thailand, you won't see banana trees lined up waiting to be kicked, you'll see Thai heavy bags(which happen to be quite dense as far as heavy bags go). I currently have a 300 lb(probably suppose to be less weight, but I think I ******** up on filling it up) Thai heavy bag from Fairtex. Thing is heavy and hard as a rock.