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 Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:39 pm
koreanusher the bible has been written like 5000 year ago. right? and it talks a lot about rome in the gospel. [: Rome was figured out when? not to long ago. see the connection here?
I found something that lists the dates of the books that make up the Bible and when they were written [Here]
And Rome has been very powerful for a very long time. The Bible writes about Rome in reference to the persecution of Jesus.
Jesus is believed to have died between 29 AD - 36 AD.
Rome has been around since 8th or 9th century BC. Much older than Jesus.
So the Bible can rightly put Rome into its writings.
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Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:29 pm
dragonlove_48 ok.... asking for proof that jesus existed is silly. You see, proof was meant to prove scientific concepts, such as 1+2=3. That can be proven, when most sciences have erred is when they started thinking they could use science to prove stuff about life. think about it, could any scientist actually PROVE that Love exists? or Joy? or..... how about Alexander the Great? proof is the results of concrete, testable, repeatable experiments with results detectable to the 5 senses of our body. So what if we have historical records saying he existed? so what if the remains of the empire he built exist still? so what if there are statues, stories, entire books about him? that PROVES nothing, the only reason we beleive Alexander the Great existed is we speculate that so many people could not have been lying. So... we beleive Alexander the Great existed, with no actual testable proof, which is ok, because you know what? none of us were alive back then, so none of us could have seen and talked to him. Jesus existed because there are manuscripts about him and his followers, people died for him, are still dying for him. they tell stories about him, both from when he lived and now. Peoples lives are changed because of him, ask most of us, we'll tell you we've had personal experience with him. there are monuments to him (if a catholic cathedral isn't a monument, what is?) and if you want I can get out my books and prove to you that a lot of the above is a lot more credible then things we all commonly accept as absolute truth. I can't PROVE Jesus existed, but you know what? I beleive he did anyway, I talk to him a lot you see. thats exactly the point i was trying to make...i completely concure
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Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:38 pm
CCubed SaintChaos this subject has already been brought up in this forum.....but ill say once again YOU CANT PROVE JESUS EXISTED! Why? Because we go to him by FAITH not by proof. What would be the point of faith if we had proof all around us? He won't ALLOW proof. and please dont give me that crap about "oh we have the earth, blah blah". you know what? if we had proof that god created the earth these arguments wouldnt even BE HERE by now. they have theories sure, but theories are theories, they'r enot solid evidence. And trust me, I've seen enough shows already of them trying to prove that the accounts in the bible are real and that Jesus is real. They already tried: Noahs Ark: they THINK they found some big mass of an object in the mountains where supposdly Noah landed his ark, but they didn't trully confirm it. The Great Flood: as usual they always have some "theory" that disproves what they're trying to prove. Christ's Wrappings: despite how CLOSE this got, its still not proven that the cloth they found is actually the cloth wrapped around Jesus' body after the crucifiction (sp?). They "supposdly" found some type of image that "looks" like a person with a crown on thorns on their head, but thats about all they found. But its still not solid proof. There are quite a few other shows on such things I'm sure, neither of which are going to be enough evidence to actually prove God/Jesus' existence. Here's one for you. What about the Garden of Eden? the bible gives its exact location, yet they haven't foudn it....why? Becuase God won't let us. Its probably not visible to our eyes, only his. And why is it hidden? BECAUSE IT WOULD BE PROOF! And he doesn't want us ot have proof. He wnats us to have faith. here's a few things you left out. A. The flood story in the bible, it's mentioned in many societies. The mesopotamian, sumerians, and egyptians all had their own account of the flood, the one thing constant is that it was a divinely caused flood. B. Proof doesn't make faith irrelevant. I can have proof that God existed and still believe in him. C. We know where the garden of eden would be in our time; or did we forget about plate tectonics? Remember Pangaea? The super-continent that eventually broke apart and became the continents we have today? Remember that the time during the garden of eden and man and womans creation is underterminable so it could have been during Pangaea. However, if you want to get technical, the bible places it between two rivers in the mesopotamian crescent. don't belive me? look at the names of the rivers and then a map of mesopotamia. you'll see them right near the sea, and get this, they form a center island just like the bible says; The Garden of Eden was surrounded by the two rivers. D. God gave us proof of his own accord because he knew that some would be like doubting Thomas. So if God doesn't give proof, why would he show his wounds to Thomas? Why would Jesus have even called himself the Son of God if he didn't want us to have proof? E. For a more radical example, let's use science to prove a divine being. The first law of Newton is that matter cannot be created or destroyed. (Hey, lookie there. Something we can't create or destroy...I'm thinking something we didn't make, so something that has had to be here before us...maybe God made matter?)Moving on, everything dies. Yep, you heard me. Everything dies, not even an atom maintains the same form for it's life time. Eventually, it splits and the original dies so two more can be made. So if we all die, no ones been here "forever." I should clarify that, no one or nothing. (We're getting there) So, we must have been created by something that has always been....I'm thinking the only thing or person that has always been is divine...so i'm thinking .... God. F. If God didn't want us to have proof, why allow authors to write the bible, which is a book completely about God, His Son, and the Holy Spirit? Hey, look at all the people that try to disprove the bible stories. For instance, there's a bible story in which a new king is elected after David to be king until a proper person was found. They didn't think this was true. What did they find? Only the scrolls detailing his time as king and his entire inaguration ceremony. Talk about hard evidence supporting the bible. G. Miracles. Like the shroud of Turin, the tilma of st. Juan Diego, which to this day survives even though it's been bombed, and a window cleaner accidentily dropped phosphoric acid on it. (No, i don't know why the window washer was using phosphoric acid.) That's enough for now. A)yeah...but what proof is there? there are TONS of stories, including fables, that exist in different societies...many of them being similar in nature..that still doesnt' prove it actually happened. B)Proof doesn't completely knock out faith,...but it diminishes it a bit at least in my opinion. C) dude, like ALREADY said, thers exact location of the garden...but is it physically there? NO D) he gave us proof? and what proof is that? he gave proof back then, but thats when Jesus was "physically" with his following prophets. that was then, this is now. E) first off...you stating stuff i already know. second off, science, despite popular belief, is a point of "view". yeah...an opinion...some of its proven...some of its not. science is basically the embodiment of how we "think" things work. we can't "prove" that a being like god existed, and we can't prove that he hasn't. its at a stalemate of belief. F) he gave us the bible as a guide to life. thats really waht it is, is a huge chunk of god's teachings to us. you don't remember the story of god casting out demons do you? i believe it was with the story of Legion, the man possesed by over a thousand demons. they publically say Jesus name and you remmeber Jesus' response to that? He physically said to them NOT to speak his name. And do you know WHY? Because that is ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of who jesus was....but also because a holy name as "jesus" was being spoken by something unclean. G) for god sakes miracles are ALSO not proof that God exists. they may be "spiritually" proof to US christians...but we can't physically proof it has significance to a being like god existing.
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Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:10 pm
CCubed dragonlove_48 ok.... asking for proof that jesus existed is silly. You see, proof was meant to prove scientific concepts, such as 1+2=3. That can be proven, when most sciences have erred is when they started thinking they could use science to prove stuff about life. think about it, could any scientist actually PROVE that Love exists? or Joy? or..... how about Alexander the Great? proof is the results of concrete, testable, repeatable experiments with results detectable to the 5 senses of our body. So what if we have historical records saying he existed? so what if the remains of the empire he built exist still? so what if there are statues, stories, entire books about him? that PROVES nothing, the only reason we beleive Alexander the Great existed is we speculate that so many people could not have been lying. So... we beleive Alexander the Great existed, with no actual testable proof, which is ok, because you know what? none of us were alive back then, so none of us could have seen and talked to him. Jesus existed because there are manuscripts about him and his followers, people died for him, are still dying for him. they tell stories about him, both from when he lived and now. Peoples lives are changed because of him, ask most of us, we'll tell you we've had personal experience with him. there are monuments to him (if a catholic cathedral isn't a monument, what is?) and if you want I can get out my books and prove to you that a lot of the above is a lot more credible then things we all commonly accept as absolute truth. I can't PROVE Jesus existed, but you know what? I beleive he did anyway, I talk to him a lot you see. if that's the case, why follow the law Jesus gave us? All your really doing is saying that Jesus is relative. Relative to WHAT? *sighs* fine... look, if you're asking why I beleive Jesus is God I can explain that. if you're asking why I beleive I should obey God I can explain that too. if you're asking why even if I didn't beleive there WAS a God and even if there were I'm not to sure Jesus is God I would STILL obey the teachings in the bible I can explain that too. But I am NOT explaining all of them, so be more specific please. I had to make assumptions to even come up with that much of an answer so if I'm going off on a total branch here feel free to let me know.
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Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:58 pm
SaintChaos B)Proof doesn't completely knock out faith,...but it diminishes it a bit at least in my opinion. People can beleive they're in a feild of daisies when in actuality they're tied to a train track with a train fast aproaching. Faith has absolutely NOTHING to do with proof or no-proof, in fact from the evidence I've seen, God's done a fairly thorough job of proving he exists, and some of that "proof" was being used as arguments for evolution. have you ever even SEEN your hand? I suggest you look at it, really LOOK at it, and then tell me there isn't a God. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that God exists and that Jesus is his son. The "proof" is evrywhere and all if has ever done is strengthen my faith. SaintChaos D) he gave us proof? and what proof is that? he gave proof back then, but thats when Jesus was "physically" with his following prophets. that was then, this is now. ... Mathew 8:23-25 "23Then he got into the boat and his disciples followed him. 24Without warning, a furious storm came up on the lake, so that the waves swept over the boat. But Jesus was sleeping. 25The disciples went and woke him, saying, "Lord, save us! We're going to drown!" 26He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm. "
Mathew 14:29b- 31 "Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!" 31Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?" "
Mathew 16:8-11 "8Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, "You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9Do you still not understand? Don't you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 10Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 11How is it you don't understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees." "
Mathew 17:17-20 "17"O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me." 18Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment. 19Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?" 20He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." "and that's just the times when Jesus actually SAID oh ye of little faith to his deciples in ONE book of the bible. how much proof did THEY have? how much faith did they have? at the time, not much, but then think about the early church, and what these men BECAME. if there is a relationship between having proof and having faith, then proof strengthens faith, not degrades it, the only thing degrading faith is our own stupid pride. sorry for jumping on you, you're making good points, but this has an effect on the discussion I'm having.
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Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:53 am
dragonlove_48 SaintChaos B)Proof doesn't completely knock out faith,...but it diminishes it a bit at least in my opinion. People can beleive they're in a feild of daisies when in actuality they're tied to a train track with a train fast aproaching. Faith has absolutely NOTHING to do with proof or no-proof, in fact from the evidence I've seen, God's done a fairly thorough job of proving he exists, and some of that "proof" was being used as arguments for evolution. have you ever even SEEN your hand? I suggest you look at it, really LOOK at it, and then tell me there isn't a God. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that God exists and that Jesus is his son. The "proof" is evrywhere and all if has ever done is strengthen my faith. SaintChaos D) he gave us proof? and what proof is that? he gave proof back then, but thats when Jesus was "physically" with his following prophets. that was then, this is now. ... Mathew 8:23-25 "23Then he got into the boat and his disciples followed him. 24Without warning, a furious storm came up on the lake, so that the waves swept over the boat. But Jesus was sleeping. 25The disciples went and woke him, saying, "Lord, save us! We're going to drown!" 26He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm. "
Mathew 14:29b- 31 "Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!" 31Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?" "
Mathew 16:8-11 "8Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, "You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9Do you still not understand? Don't you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 10Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 11How is it you don't understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees." "
Mathew 17:17-20 "17"O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me." 18Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment. 19Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?" 20He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." "and that's just the times when Jesus actually SAID oh ye of little faith to his deciples in ONE book of the bible. how much proof did THEY have? how much faith did they have? at the time, not much, but then think about the early church, and what these men BECAME. if there is a relationship between having proof and having faith, then proof strengthens faith, not degrades it, the only thing degrading faith is our own stupid pride. sorry for jumping on you, you're making good points, but this has an effect on the discussion I'm having. I'M not saying that God doesn't exist. I'm fully christian, i fully BELIEVE WITH FAITH that God exists....however when it comes to OTHER people... the bible isnt good enough saying god exists because he did such and such thing in my life ISNT GOOD ENOUGH. thats the point im trying to get at. the stuff thats good enough proof to "me" is not "physically" good enough proof to others who are searching for proof. i can't "physically" prove god exists. and to use your example, looking at my hand and believing with "faith" that God made, is not the same thing as "physically" proving that God made my hand. do you see what im saying now? and the bible ISNT PROOF either. at least for OTHER people. to mankind, the bible is just "another" book out there that is full of religious teachings. and i honestly dont recall ANY OTHER BOOK OUT THERE thats from different societies claiming that "some man existed with the name of Jesus and performed miracles..." etc etc.
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Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:03 am
CCubed News flash. Jesus is God. Jesus <-> God <-> holy Spirit. Three divine persons, one divine nature. So if we prove God, we prove Jesus. Now that's a redundant sentence. Might as well say if we prove God, we prove God. Wrong. Jesus was a man who claimed to be God. Regardless of the veracity of this claim, if we prove Jesus existed, then we have only proved that a man went around 2000 years ago claiming to be the Messiah, not that God exists.
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Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 5:12 pm
Cometh The Inquisitor CCubed News flash. Jesus is God. Jesus <-> God <-> holy Spirit. Three divine persons, one divine nature. So if we prove God, we prove Jesus. Now that's a redundant sentence. Might as well say if we prove God, we prove God. Wrong. Jesus was a man who claimed to be God. Regardless of the veracity of this claim, if we prove Jesus existed, then we have only proved that a man went around 2000 years ago claiming to be the Messiah, not that God exists. no he's right in a way cometh. god=jesus=holy spirit. jesus and the holy ghost being two forms OF God. if we proved jesus existed, that would prove that god himself exists.
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Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:25 pm
SaintChaos no he's right in a way cometh. god=jesus=holy spirit. jesus and the holy ghost being two forms OF God. if we proved jesus existed, that would prove that god himself exists. No, if we proved Jesus existed (which we pretty much have, anyways) then we would prove that a man traveled around the middle east claiming to do miracles and to be the son of God.
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Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 1:30 pm
Cometh The Inquisitor SaintChaos no he's right in a way cometh. god=jesus=holy spirit. jesus and the holy ghost being two forms OF God. if we proved jesus existed, that would prove that god himself exists. No, if we proved Jesus existed (which we pretty much have, anyways) then we would prove that a man traveled around the middle east claiming to do miracles and to be the son of God. yeah but he's about the ONLY person that did miracles back then. well other than his prophet moses. i think its much more than what you say it is. i think it depends on "how" you prove he existed. from a christian point of view, if you prove jesus existed on earth, thats the same as proving God and the Holy Ghost exists. at least to ME it feels that way.......but again i dont need proof. i believe in god regardless of the situation. and they haven't found a way to disprove God or Jesus or the Holy Ghost.......thus I'm not going to worry abotu it personally.
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:37 pm
SaintChaos dragonlove_48 SaintChaos B)Proof doesn't completely knock out faith,...but it diminishes it a bit at least in my opinion. People can beleive they're in a feild of daisies when in actuality they're tied to a train track with a train fast aproaching. Faith has absolutely NOTHING to do with proof or no-proof, in fact from the evidence I've seen, God's done a fairly thorough job of proving he exists, and some of that "proof" was being used as arguments for evolution. have you ever even SEEN your hand? I suggest you look at it, really LOOK at it, and then tell me there isn't a God. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that God exists and that Jesus is his son. The "proof" is evrywhere and all if has ever done is strengthen my faith. SaintChaos D) he gave us proof? and what proof is that? he gave proof back then, but thats when Jesus was "physically" with his following prophets. that was then, this is now. ... Mathew 8:23-25 "23Then he got into the boat and his disciples followed him. 24Without warning, a furious storm came up on the lake, so that the waves swept over the boat. But Jesus was sleeping. 25The disciples went and woke him, saying, "Lord, save us! We're going to drown!" 26He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm. "
Mathew 14:29b- 31 "Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!" 31Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?" "
Mathew 16:8-11 "8Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, "You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9Do you still not understand? Don't you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 10Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 11How is it you don't understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees." "
Mathew 17:17-20 "17"O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me." 18Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment. 19Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?" 20He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." "and that's just the times when Jesus actually SAID oh ye of little faith to his deciples in ONE book of the bible. how much proof did THEY have? how much faith did they have? at the time, not much, but then think about the early church, and what these men BECAME. if there is a relationship between having proof and having faith, then proof strengthens faith, not degrades it, the only thing degrading faith is our own stupid pride. sorry for jumping on you, you're making good points, but this has an effect on the discussion I'm having. I'M not saying that God doesn't exist. I'm fully christian, i fully BELIEVE WITH FAITH that God exists....however when it comes to OTHER people... the bible isnt good enough saying god exists because he did such and such thing in my life ISNT GOOD ENOUGH. thats the point im trying to get at. the stuff thats good enough proof to "me" is not "physically" good enough proof to others who are searching for proof. i can't "physically" prove god exists. and to use your example, looking at my hand and believing with "faith" that God made, is not the same thing as "physically" proving that God made my hand. do you see what im saying now? and the bible ISNT PROOF either. at least for OTHER people. to mankind, the bible is just "another" book out there that is full of religious teachings. and i honestly dont recall ANY OTHER BOOK OUT THERE thats from different societies claiming that "some man existed with the name of Jesus and performed miracles..." etc etc. ya, that's how I prove God exists, because you can't ask for proof of something that doesn't have proof, and since we beleive in a lot of things that don't have proof, beause of this this and this... then we should also beleive in God.
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:41 pm
SaintChaos yeah but he's about the ONLY person that did miracles back then. well other than his prophet moses. i think its much more than what you say it is. i think it depends on "how" you prove he existed. from a christian point of view, if you prove jesus existed on earth, thats the same as proving God and the Holy Ghost exists. at least to ME it feels that way.......but again i dont need proof. i believe in god regardless of the situation. and they haven't found a way to disprove God or Jesus or the Holy Ghost.......thus I'm not going to worry abotu it personally. You need to prove that Jesus existed before his miracles can be talked about.
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:54 am
Cometh The Inquisitor SaintChaos yeah but he's about the ONLY person that did miracles back then. well other than his prophet moses. i think its much more than what you say it is. i think it depends on "how" you prove he existed. from a christian point of view, if you prove jesus existed on earth, thats the same as proving God and the Holy Ghost exists. at least to ME it feels that way.......but again i dont need proof. i believe in god regardless of the situation. and they haven't found a way to disprove God or Jesus or the Holy Ghost.......thus I'm not going to worry abotu it personally. You need to prove that Jesus existed before his miracles can be talked about. Cometh. your missing the point. Historians agree that there was someone named "Jesus", who had twelve disciples, and who died on the cross. So there's no reason to prove Jesus existed, we already know he did. IF you don't believe that, then explain the catholic church. Now that's been around since Jesus died. So many people following one persons teachings...that pretty much means that he really existed. And God=Jesus=The Holy Spirit. If you look in the bible, they're actually revealed in that order. We knew about God, then Jesus, then The Holy Spirit. And Jesus was God's son, because people still perform miracles in his name and they happen. If he was just another man, there'd be no way people could do miracles in his name.
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:29 pm
CCubed Cometh. your missing the point. Historians agree that there was someone named "Jesus", who had twelve disciples, and who died on the cross. So there's no reason to prove Jesus existed, we already know he did. IF you don't believe that, then explain the catholic church. Now that's been around since Jesus died. So many people following one persons teachings...that pretty much means that he really existed. The point was, even if you prove that Jesus existed, then you haven't proved that God exists.
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Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:29 pm
Proof that Jesus exists. I gues my question is what type of proof? Scientific, mathematical, linguistic, historical, archealogical, or what? Their is proof all around us! You tell me what type of proof you want, and I will see what I can come up with! Anyone would want to come in knowing what the other person's stance is that they are taking. What is your arguement against?
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