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but point sparring most people dont hit very hard they just wanna make contact, me and my friends we'll just go at it with a few rules no face shots no groin and nothing to the mid-back area (some people consider sides the back)

You do realize that most tournament rules are strike oriented because they were developed for certain martial arts in mind. There are certain tournament styles you can go to that offer more accomodating rule settings but they are fewer and harder to find. San Shou tournaments for example are essentially kickboxing that allows takedowns and sweeps with an emphasis on chinese styles of martial arts.



Do not generalize and combine Karate style sparring and Tae Kwon Do style sparring. UTK/NASKA/ATA style point sparring, which is what I like to call "Tag point sparring" is indeed used in most ATA style Taekwondo schools and National Karate schools (which are essentially TKD schools) and in most generic Karate tournaments (w/ exceptions being Kyokushin branches of Karate styles and other more full contact styles of Karate) so that much is valid; however, head contact is allowed under those rule settings (albeit light head contact) with the only exception concerning youth divisions and non blackbelt divisions (which case, you won't find many tournaments where youths 13 and under are allowed to strike to the head). WTF Taekwondo and ITF style TKD both also allow full contact kicks to the head that can cause knockdown (actually awards points for knockdown in WTF) and/or knockouts.



Would you say that sparring without trying to pull your punches and not hit so hard is more "realistic"? So the form of sparring you practice that doesn't use sparring equipment and protective gear is "unrealistic"?



Don't you think that it's a bit hypocritical to criticize sports sparring as "bull" when you practice sparring in an "unrealistic" manner? Isn't pulling your punches "limit[ing] what you can do so you are only training yourself to fight like that." ?



Why not just spar with sparring equipment? Again, pulling your power is "unrealistic" and a bad fighting habit to train, so why not just use sparring equipment so that there is less need to pull your power and injury potential is decreased all the same?



If you are referring to UTK/NASKA/ATA style "Tag Point Sparring" then yes, I concur. Since light contact/moderate contact is only necessary to score points in this style of sparring, it's often more about speed than anything and more about who scores the first clean shot than who's landing better strikes.



It is important to learn to take a hit but at the same time, certain abuse you just can't train for. Getting knocked out is as dazing everytime you're knocked out regardless of the training you attempt to do to train your chin.



If you're talking about "Pump kicks," where you keep the leg chambered and "pump" multiple kicks without letting the foot land, those only work (and are fairly effective) in UTK/NASKA/ATA style sparring because they allow multiple kicks to be thrown quickly. They are totally ineffective otherwise because the kicks are thrown without the aid of the hips (where most kicks derive their real power from) since they are being thrown from the chambered position. They're used cus they work in those tournament rules and because tournament fighters are smart enough to play the game rather than complain about how the game is being played.



Ever considered the possibility that some if not most tournament fighters and combat sport athletes aren't training for when they're in a "real fight"? And on the contrary, boxers always spar with padded sparring equipment, and while they may be "deadly" it's not like Boxers train for "real fights" or adapt their training to accomodate life or death situations. I find it hypocritical to criticize tournament style martial artists for their lack of consideration for "real fight" training only to applaud Boxers who don't do any sort of "real fight" conditioning either.



So if I were to tackle an Aikido martial artist and submit him during an Aikido class and then get thrown out of the class for not fighting according to Aikido's standards and rules, does that give me the right to say Aikido is biased?

Again, as I said at the start, most point sparring is developed for strike oriented martial arts in mind.



So because you aren't good at something, gives you the right to dislike it? A bit shallow don't you think?

I agree however that kicking low is more effective than high kicks...depending on the situation. Since I'm assuming you're talking about TKD's emphasis of kicks do realize that TKD does have low kicks in their repetoire, they just aren't used in competition. Is it more effective in a supposed "real" situation, no because the technique is quite risky but then again it's not really meant for "real" situations is it? It is more challenging to kick someone in head than it is to kick someone in the legs thus why kicking someone in the head scores you more points; this is all done for the purpose of sport and competition.

Please be mindful of context before you criticize something as inferior.



Yet realistically, how often are you going to run into a gang of rival martial artists from your master's rival dojo? I mean, it only takes one hand for me to count the number of times I've had to defend against a ninja attack in a dark alley with glass strewn about. [sarcasm]

The average fight against a street fighter or bar room brawler does not require the athleticism of a 5 round kickboxing match because smoes like them are not highly trained martial arts athletes. You don't need to have trained for years in a shaolin temple with monks in the mountains of China to be able to defend against a street thug. In some instances, martial arts training could actual hinder your ability to defend yourself by creating a false sense of effectiveness and ability to handle the situation.



Taekwondo athletes are only able to kick from a distance is a common misconception. In higher level Olympic sparring, in fighting and clinch work is an important aspect of a good athlete and there's quite a bit of strategy involved. Of course this is only applicable realistically (god I hate that word) in WTF style sparring (but again, why any WTF fighter would use it in any situation not related to WTF TKD is beyond me).



You can push or punch to the head in WTF Olympic sparring nor kick below the chest level. You signed up for Full Contact Olympic sparring and those rules are in line with Full Contact Olympic sparring. It's a.) Full contact because combatants are wearing sparring equipment so power of kicks don't have to be pulled or limited for safety reasons. Moreover, in order to score points kicks have to be solid shots that move the body (trembling blow) so power is necessary to generate points. "Full Contact" is not the same as "NHB" (No Holds Barred), in that most any technique is allowed to most any part of the body, but rather that "Full Contact" means power is not pulled. Consider the fact that Boxing is considered a "Full Contact" sport and yet punching below the belt or kicking at all is illegal in boxing rules b.) Olympic because WTF TKD is an olympic sport because it met the requirements for membership, it is a competitive sport, and a clear division of skill level can be ascertained through competition. c.) sparring because it was obviously a protected "fight" against an opponent.



Do realize that it is somewhat difficult to score points in WTF TKD. The shots have to be solid enough to move the body (and unhindered) and they have to be obvious enough that at least 2 of 3 corner judges see it and respond with their buzzers within a few seconds of each other fore to register. Having actually been a corner judge, it's not always the easiest thing in the world to see scoring kicks when you have a bad angle. Now it's even harder since WTF rules have been updated to have 4 judges with a requirement of 3 judges seeing the scoring kick for it to register a hit.



If you are referring to UTK/NASKA/ATA "tag point sparring" then yes, it does create the bad habit of light contact and pulling your punches but so does sparring without padded equipment (which leads to more injuries and less training). Also in contrast, in "real fights" the level of skill and intensity are often far less than an athletic combat sports endeavor, such as a kickboxing, boxing, wrestling, mma, or olympic style wtf tkd match.

Real fights don't take much to end quickly, drunk jerks at a bar or a party aren't often trained athletes or martial artists. Sparring for tournaments and competition and sparring for self defense purposes can be two different things and many of the people in this guild don't seem to understand that.

Finally, I certainly agree that "tag point sparring" is a bit of a joke for several reasons. Light moderate contact rules emphasize speed over power which in turn degenerates the quality of matches into basically a karate version of "tag" where whoever touches the other cleanly first scores the point. Moreover, the endurance and stamina required is severly less than most combat sport styles, since most tournament rules fight only for one 2 minute round or before whoever reaches 5 points first (5 points is hardly a lot considering kicking techniques score two points as is).

However, I sense a lot of animosity and ignorance towards Taekwondo and while it's certainly true a great many TKD schools are trash, ATA affiliated being the worst offenders (since they do tag point sparring and have riddiculous bullshido artifacts like a "cammo" belt), WTF TKD is a legitimate competitive full contact Olympic sport and is far superior to UTK/NASKA/ATA style "tag point sparring" for several reasons. For one, it's full contact and requires solid full contact blows to score points and regardless of misconceptions and ignorance, skilled TKD athletes can generate quite a bit of force with the speed and power of their so called "tappity tap" "loud slapping" kicks. It requires a good amount of strategy regarding proper distancing and timing along with great demands on good footwork. Furthermore, it requires a great amount of endurance as it's very much an explosive sport that's mostly anaerobic and with 3 three minute rounds of fighting is a respectable challenge of endurance as other combat sports.

Well, that's good then.


Most likely you won't need that much training as you were saying. I didn't mean to make it sound before that you have to have a style or rigorous training necessarily. It all comes down to the individual.

I feel the modern goal of martial training is to learn how to protect your self with your own body as much as posible. These days people don't carry weapons like they once did it's just not allowed. Also by training in martial arts you should learn to deal with an attack making it more likely that you wont freeze up during an attack. My main problem with sport martial art is the rules I have no problems with Muay Thai they alow a lot of things to be used and it is full contact Boxing is one that I have a few problems with and I know a few people who box I have played with them a bit they are not used to things most other martial artist are. One of the guys I met asked me to show him what I ment when I said that I couldent fight him with the Boxing gloves and his rules I don't fight that way.

I had him come at me and I lightly kicked him in the side of the knee with a round house he never seen it coming. I had him punch at me and I tied up his arms useing my Wing Chun. He said kicking was cheap the way he talked I was fighting dirty. There is no such thing as dirty fighting thats just an excuse. Martial arts is a way for people to learn how to stay alive it gives you a chance where you would have had no chance. It's like some of this knife training it's posible it could work but it's not likely to work as well as it did in class its up to the teacher to let people know how things realy are. In a fight if a guy pulled a knife and I had no way out the knowledge I have on knife defence may save my life I am glad I know it no matter how slim my chance is I have a better chance knowing what I do.

I do not feel you need to train as hard as a military fighter and that its not the same for us these days but that knowledge is almost the same and if its chaged we can use it to save lives. You have little chance of fighting a guy who is armed but if you know how your chances are better. I have no false feeling of being like Rambo but it gives me the knowledge that I know what I can handle and what I can't. I have used gun techniques wile playing around with friends who intended to shoot me with air soft guns and I have also used knife techniques on toy knives wile messing around. It's not the same but it's close to real stuff it wont always work but in a situation where your life is on the line I would rather be knowledgeable of these things than not and I feel martial arts schools should teach them and as well as posible.

I do Wing Chun because I like it it's more my style it is more combat oriented than the other schools around my area. Wing Chun is not always the way I like it but I can change that Bruce Lee did. A martial art is a personal thing you bend it to your way not every one can do high kicks not every one can do grappling its just the way it is. I use some high kicks witch is not part of Wing Chun I got it from TKD but I know that low kicks are more combat effective so I stick to low kicks unless I see an opening and know it will land. I mix what I know with what I am learning some day it wont be Wing Chun any more it will be something new. My feelings is that martial arts is for real fighting not sports and people should try as hard as they can to teach it that way.

I have heard stories of martial artist geting beat down in real fights I have heard stories of martial art people surviving only because they trained it all come down to how you trained. You said RBSD arts have received a heavy amount of criticism for their teaching style of predetermined "static" self defense "drills" for being unrealistic and inferior to depicting realism when compared to full contact sport styled martial arts. If its predetermind I got a problem with it and would only train that just to learn the techniques I hate that sort of thing. It must be as random as posible thats the only real way of doing it. In my class we don't do enough weapon drills but when we do its not like I take a training knife and stab at you once I move around and cut and thrust at you and you better move there is no telling wher I may strike that is more real.

If you are into the sport of it thats ok for you I train to be able to survive and some day teach others to as well. The reality of a street attack can be very bad and you may never end up in that kind of attack I don't know I will. I like martial arts so I train and because of how I feel this is how I train.

Point sparring is probably good for someone starting out to get their feet wet a bit, but I think that there should be more in the way of free sparring in tournaments. I take Ving Tsun and I just competed in an mma fight and I felt like I actually learned more. I also had to fight alot more like I would if I got attacked. It was better I think to give myself a better idea of what I am capable of. It depends on what a person wants though. As far as competition, even winning in a point sparring tourney isn't as satisfying to me personally than losing a decision in a continuous fight.

Ling Lom
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Ling Lom, also known as Air Monkey or Dancing Monkey, is a style of martial arts practiced in Thailand and Laos. Ling lom includes both striking and ground-fighting. Ground fighting techniques traditionally taught in Muay Thai, but rarely used in modern sport bouts, are sometimes referred to in Thailand as Ling Lom, though this is not technically correct.

The origin of Ling Lom is uncertain. Some sources indicate that it developed from Chinese martial arts along the border area between China and Southeast Asia (modern-day Laos and Myanmar). Other sources identify Ling Lom as Indian in origin, claiming that the movements and name of the style stem from the fighting techniques of the divine monkey Hanuman described in the Ramayana (and its Thai version, the Ramakien, and its Lao version the Pra Lak Pra Lam). Many of the individual techniques in Ling Lom have specific names, a practice common to several kung-fu(monkey styles).

Muay Boran is said to have split from Ling Lom in the 1700s. Some of the techniques displayed by Tony Jaa in the popular Thai martial arts film Ong-Bak: Muay Thai Warrior are taken from Ling Lom.

First, TaeKyon, I'd just like to applaud you. That's a lot of good posting man.



I didn't realize. Needless to say, what I did that day in no way resembled a fight of any kind. It was foot tag. I was just extremely dissapointed, is all. (the entire trip sucked, BADLY, and I really just wanted to fight someone)



I realize it must be difficult to accurately measure which hits are points, and which aren't. This was blatant jackazzery though, there was no question about it. Random people in the audience could see, and nobody there knew me. You read my whole post, right? We were the new guys in a members only club...it's no suprise at all that my whole team got screwed in a similar fashion.



I hope you weren't referring to me. I never once mentioned Taekwondo being inferior to anything, I never really even mentioned a style. My first two primary disciplines were Taekwondo, and Muay Thai. I just don't like the tappy tappy tournament nonsense.