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So the fact that if a person drinks and drives they can potentially kill innocent people doesn't matter at all. As long as they're happy and you know, pay off the insurance for the car as a concequence.

It's not a legal choice, however.

Should it be legal to drive drunk? Even though more than half of auto accidents in the US result from drunk driving, it should be legal because it's a choice someone is making? And if they do drive drunk and kill someone, shouldn't they be punished for manslaughter, or should they be allowed to just pay for the car to be fixed and be on their way?

So why is it that with abortion, you make a choice, and you aren't held accountable legally for the harm you inflict on another human due to that choice?

So even though through driving drunk there's only a possibility they'll kill someone and through abortion it's almost an absolute that they'll kill someone it's safer to legalize abortion as opposed to drunk driving?

What about the fact that in 2003 there were 17,013 drunk driving deaths in America where as (from various sites) in America there are between 1.3 - 1.4 million deaths due to abortion per year. (Not counting any of the mothers who may die because of the procedure.)

Sounds a lot safer to legalize drunk driving to me.


So why can't we make it illegal if it's wrong? Notice you're using 'legal' and 'illegal', you're forgetting that what we're trying to do it make it 'illegal' so that she no longer has the 'legal choice' to do this.

Legality means jack all considering that we're trying to make it illegal. You have to argue why it's okay for it to be legal in the first place.


So if the mother keeps her child locked up in its room all it's life she should have the choice as to whether or not she gets to kill it at any point. Since still the only connection it would have made would be with the mother still.

Or a new born. Or what about mentally challenged kids? I mean they can never really connect with anyone.

Because we all know that your life value is completely dependant on how many people you connect with.

Once again bringing legalities into it doesn't work. As for the rest of it; you seem to think that I'm compairing the two. I'm not, what I'm stating is that if you're all for "the right to one's own body and life choices no matter who else it hurts" than you should be for making drunk driving legal. OH! And late term abortion as well.

Because notice what's consistant in the two? They're both choices a person can make for themself for whatever reason. Maybe the person who was drinking has no money for a taxi and no buses go by their house, maybe they feel the only way they can get home is to drink and drive. Why would it matter if they kill someone along the way?


Once again, I wasn't compairing them. I was pointing out the gaps in your arguement being that you're pro-the-choice-to-abort-your-child and not pro-make-whatever-choices-in-life-that-you-want.

Not to mention that even if I was compairing them your compairison wouldn't work. As the choice to get out of the car doesn't result in someone dying, abortion does almost every single time.

(Taken from Lymelady) If you want an analogy getting in the car is compairable to having sex, getting in the car drunk is like having sex without protection. Both may lead to an accident one lessens the chance however. (Both may lead to pregnancy, protection lessens the chance however.)

Once you're in the accident you've got choices to make. You can either leave, if your car runs well enough, or you can stay like the law says you should. If you leave, the most you'll end up having to do is pay for car repairs, if no one ever finds out what you did. If you stay, you pay more monitarily, and you need to deal with the others involved in the accident. Why the heck stay when it's put to you like that? Because otherwise you're hurting the other people.

it makes things a whole lot harder for them to deal with, their insurance company will not like it, and hey, it's someone else's problem, but you caused it. That's more of a responsibility thing. In abortion, it's worse than their insurance rates skyrocketing. It kills at least one, and potentially wounds many others involved.

(Back to more from Miranda.) Yes even though the law says that these people should stay and take care of their responsibilty some will take the easier way out. But it's our job as citizens to make sure that the law does not condone this form of action, that it doesn't tell people that they maybe should stay and deal with the other people they've involved but they don't really have to if they really don't want to. What ever's best for them and all.

Alright, FreeArsenal.

My point was that you -can- make these choices, and you deal with whatever kind of penance society hands to you. You -have- to deal with it, if you make the options in life that you want to.

If you kill someone, you're likely going to get in trouble from the police. And if you -do- kill someone, you have to accept those consequences. Do I support killing people? No, I support that people have the right to control their lives, whether I find it reprehensible or not.

With pregnancy, there are possible consequences. With abortion, there are possible consequences. You have to make the choice that's best for you, and take what you get.

I'm not saying the direction of a person's life justifies the death of another. Nothing justifies a death. But the point is that you can't judge people for these choices that they make. Judge society for allowing these choices to happen. Until society changes things, I'm fine with my opinion.

Gosh. This is fast turning into a 'debate Mcphee with all you have' thread.

sweatdrop

Honestly, I'm not sure what to say, either.

In fact, I didn't want to start debating with you guys.

I mean, number one, this is the Pro-life guild. I'm not really pro-life anymore. At least, not in the way that you want.

I like pretty much all of you guys. You're great to talk to, and it's fun to chat with you guys. You're a nice bunch.

However, being that I'm on the 'other side', now, I just... I don't know if you guys really would want me here.

I think I'd just be a superfluous presence in the guild, that makes people angry.

If people want me to quit the guild because I support abortion, I can do that.

Seems fair, looking at it from your points of view, I think.

That's fine with me.

That's a place for debate, after all.

I just don't want to upset people, here.

Ok. After thinking about this, I'm responding.


I'm not claiming that it's -safer- to legalize abortion. I'm claiming that it's necessary so that we can make educated decisions based on what we want our own lives to be like. It's important to have an array of life choices to make, though some of them may involve death. But that's something you need to decide for yourself.

Having a child's a big thing, and you can't enter into it lightly. You have to consider all the possiblilities, and if this is what's best for you?

Legalize drunk driving, but the only purpose to drunk driving is to increase the chances that you'll kill someone, rather than resolving a situation, like abortion has the potential to.


You're right. Okay, so It's okay for abortion to be legal. Why?

For 1) It's a personal choice based on someone's morals, and someone's body.

2) Moral subjectivity shouldn't dictate the law. Making it illegal would be on the same vein for me as making gay marriage illegal, at least in terms of morality. Just because something is against your morals, doesn't make it okay to try and take away a life option others may decide to take.



I admit my justification was a tad glib, and doesn't really make sense logically, but I meant to list other reasons.

The fetus is a life. But simply because it's another life, that should dictate the direction of the mother's life? No. People have to make choices in their lives that seem right to them at the time. And as long as Abortion is a legal choice to be made, I support it, if not lauding the procedure with affection.

But there I go mentioning legality again.



It's not about "no matter who it hurts" it's about "What's best for me, and what I want from life right now."

And like I said above, Drunk driving causes problems, abortion has the potential to solve them.

When has drunk driving solved anything? Legalize it if you like, but that's the differentiation to me.

You seem to be focusing on the death part of it, and the choice part of it, and because of that you seem to think that drunk driving and abortion are relatable to one another in this way.

Well, I just don't see it like that.


By the logic I'm detecting from all of this, I'm getting that you think abortion should be illegal for two reasons. Possibly more, but these are the two I'm pinpointing.

1) Abortion is ditching your responsibilities.

When you have sex, you aren't automatically making a checklist in your mind saying that if you get pregnant you'll have the child, or that you'll abort it. Life hits you in the a** sometimes, and we have to take it into our own hands. You have to make a decision when it comes to pregnancy, because with nine months of being pregnant comes physical difficulties, not to mention those that will call her a slut, if she's underage, or younger than society deems.

It just seem to me that abortion is useful is protecting yourself from a place in life that you don't want to end up. You just don't -want- to go there. And I think that's perfectly fine.

2) The fetus is a life, a person, and therefore, an Human being all its' own.

Like I said before, The fetus is a life. But simply because it's another life, that should dictate the direction of the mother's life? I don't think so. You can't take away another person's choices, and you can't condemn them, or their actions without being in their situation.

It's not fair, and it's not right. The fetus being another life is incosequential, because You have to protect your best interests, sometimes. And you have to be a little selfish. I'm willing to admit that abortion is selfish, but so are a lot of things in life. If you never think about yourself, and always about the other life, you won't be able to see things clearly.

CHoosing your life direction should NOT justify the killing of another, and does not in any other case but abortion.

If I kill my grandparents to inherit money and never have to do a day's worth of work, why should it be illegal? I'm changing my life direction for the better. For me, anyway.

If I kill one particular doctor, I can get the medication that's being held back. If I don't get it, I'll get worse. Eventually I'll be better, but it will take longer. If I get rid of him, I won't end up in that situation.

If I kill my brother, our familiy's financial status would stabalize. One less mouth to feed, body to clothe, etc. We would be able to afford maybe even a real tutor so I could get through my schoolwork and graduate. My life direction would change drastically, for the better.

In all of those situations, I would have changed my life for the better by doing any of those, if I didn't care about the people I killed. Why can't I have that choice to change my life direction? Why is it that I'm forced by law to stay here where I am, without any recourse other than options that take time, maybe money, and a lot of stress?

And drinking and driving is a combination of solutions. Drinking is what many use as a solution to depression or stress, driving is an effective means of getting somewhere, and some people feel they can do both and maintain control to avoid accidents. They choose it, they use those solutions to their probems, and live with the consequences. They could take the bus, they could take a cab, but they don't.

You should have the right to choose your life direction, but how far can you take it before the law steps in? It could be a lawless society where you choose your complete life direction and don't abide by the moral standards of the society which you live in, since there is no law and no moral standards and you can do whatever the heck you want. That's the only way to truly have complete freedom of your life direction. At what point should law tell someone that they've done enough directing for one day?