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 Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:17 pm
Heavenly_Evil faeryatheart Heavenly_Evil  This is me at the park. I'm 17 i graduated high school last year. I'm in community college til i'm 18 then i'm going to Either UCLA or UCSF. Was born in Napa, Ca lived there til *count* about 4 years ago then i moved to southern cali and live in the High Desert sweatdrop think i covered everything huh sorry i've been gone a while. They are the donation item. sweatdrop i bet you know that already though now lol
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Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 8:54 pm
t0paz  me being the camera fiend that I am. blaugh I don't know if anyone remembers me, I'm sorry guys I'll try and hang around more. With that said, Samurai you're hawt. whee I'm 20, and I go to UNLV in Vegas. I'm a squashmore there and I'm also a minister in training. 3nodding
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 9:18 am
Zaierah ?women should remain silent in the churches? (1 Cor. 14). 1 Timothy 2. Here Paul said it even more clearly. He told us exactly what his practice was: ?I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man; she must be silent.?1 Tim 2:8-11 ? I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. [Men are to lead; women are to be modest, learning quietly, and in submission; in this way, they prove their claim to godliness.]1 Cor 11:3-10 ? But I would have you know, that the head [i.e., authority (Jdg. 11:10; Eph. 1:22)] of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. [Therefore, no inferiority is implied in submissiveness, only different God-ordained roles.] Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth [direct revelation (which is no longer an active gift for anyone, men or women), not normal preaching/teaching (prophesying and teaching were two distinct gifts?Eph. 4:11)] with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head [an abnormal situation for woman to pray or prophesy in public, and therefore, she must have a visible sign of authority over her]: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause [the created order] ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. [Paul again refers back to the order of creation, and that the angels are watching (Eph, 3:10), for his authority, not because of the curse of the Fall as some so-called ?Biblical feminists? contend.] [Paul is speaking here of conduct in meetings outside the church; he doesn?t speak to church conduct until verse 18; 1 Cor. 6:12-11:17 deals with personal conduct outside of corporate church meetings.] Prov 31:10-31 ? Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies. The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life. She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands. She is like the merchants? ships; she bringeth her food from afar. She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens. She considereth a field, and buyeth it [in order to plant and grow food for her family]: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard. [providing wine part of the provisions of the home, just as is providing of the food; i.e., she was not a ?real estate lady? as the so-called Biblical feminists teach today?she barters food, wine, garments, and sashes (vs. 24)] She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms. She perceiveth that her merchandise is good [bartering food and drink, not real estate speculation]: her candle goeth not out by night. She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff. She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy. She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet. She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple [a wealthy household, yet she works hard?no idleness]. Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land. [Her faithfulness in the home and with the home is very significant in her husband?s success.] She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant. [The issue of working women is not income; the focus must be the home, and income generated through the home, not outside of it.] Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come. [She has made provision for the future.] She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness. She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness. Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her. Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all. [The real credit comes to a woman from her children and from her husband.] Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised. Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates. The lord speaks for himself..i neednt say any words i dont know what denomination your from but to me that dosnt matter.. and my denomintion is this3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Im born again praise god but nothing wrong witha women talking about christ to people and going to a school ofr it just we cant lead a church heart You also have to keep in mind the context these passages were written in. In that culture, especialy at that time, women were second to men, and because of that any attempt of a woman leading in that situation would be very bad, because of all the people that would be offended by it, and God's message would not be reached. Here in America it is a little different, women have been given more rights and so it is not wrong for a woman to preach in this sense. Another thing to remember is this, God loves us all equally, and knows our hearts and knows our abilities. God will push those He feels are capable of leading to leading postions, regardless of gender. If He can forgive a gentile and allow them in to enter hevean even though they were not intended to enter hevean (since Jews were the original ones intended), shouldn't He be able to allow women to lead others to Christ just as men do? This is what I have learned.
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 9:31 am
Lithanus Zaierah ?women should remain silent in the churches? (1 Cor. 14). 1 Timothy 2. Here Paul said it even more clearly. He told us exactly what his practice was: ?I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man; she must be silent.?1 Tim 2:8-11 ? I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. [Men are to lead; women are to be modest, learning quietly, and in submission; in this way, they prove their claim to godliness.]1 Cor 11:3-10 ? But I would have you know, that the head [i.e., authority (Jdg. 11:10; Eph. 1:22)] of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. [Therefore, no inferiority is implied in submissiveness, only different God-ordained roles.] Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth [direct revelation (which is no longer an active gift for anyone, men or women), not normal preaching/teaching (prophesying and teaching were two distinct gifts?Eph. 4:11)] with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head [an abnormal situation for woman to pray or prophesy in public, and therefore, she must have a visible sign of authority over her]: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause [the created order] ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. [Paul again refers back to the order of creation, and that the angels are watching (Eph, 3:10), for his authority, not because of the curse of the Fall as some so-called ?Biblical feminists? contend.] [Paul is speaking here of conduct in meetings outside the church; he doesn?t speak to church conduct until verse 18; 1 Cor. 6:12-11:17 deals with personal conduct outside of corporate church meetings.] Prov 31:10-31 ? Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies. The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life. She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands. She is like the merchants? ships; she bringeth her food from afar. She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens. She considereth a field, and buyeth it [in order to plant and grow food for her family]: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard. [providing wine part of the provisions of the home, just as is providing of the food; i.e., she was not a ?real estate lady? as the so-called Biblical feminists teach today?she barters food, wine, garments, and sashes (vs. 24)] She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms. She perceiveth that her merchandise is good [bartering food and drink, not real estate speculation]: her candle goeth not out by night. She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff. She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy. She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet. She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple [a wealthy household, yet she works hard?no idleness]. Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land. [Her faithfulness in the home and with the home is very significant in her husband?s success.] She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant. [The issue of working women is not income; the focus must be the home, and income generated through the home, not outside of it.] Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come. [She has made provision for the future.] She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness. She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness. Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her. Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all. [The real credit comes to a woman from her children and from her husband.] Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised. Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates. The lord speaks for himself..i neednt say any words i dont know what denomination your from but to me that dosnt matter.. and my denomintion is this3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Im born again praise god but nothing wrong witha women talking about christ to people and going to a school ofr it just we cant lead a church heart You also have to keep in mind the context these passages were written in. In that culture, especialy at that time, women were second to men, and because of that any attempt of a woman leading in that situation would be very bad, because of all the people that would be offended by it, and God's message would not be reached. Here in America it is a little different, women have been given more rights and so it is not wrong for a woman to preach in this sense. Another thing to remember is this, God loves us all equally, and knows our hearts and knows our abilities. God will push those He feels are capable of leading to leading postions, regardless of gender. If He can forgive a gentile and allow them in to enter hevean even though they were not intended to enter hevean (since Jews were the original ones intended), shouldn't He be able to allow women to lead others to Christ just as men do? This is what I have learned.
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:26 pm
faeryatheart Yea, I agree with you. Plus, as she said earlier, we are just vessels, and gender shouldn't matter. Oh, and, the Bible is just guidelines, not a book that you have to go by in every aspect. It was written by man, not God. 3nodding Well, it was written by man, but most or all of it was directly inspired by God. But I think we know what you mean xd
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:43 pm
ooooooo... don't get me on taking the Bible word for word. Granted there are some things in the Old testiment that Jesus made obsolete (ie: Sacrificing) but the rest you need to take seriously.. Do you think God would put something in His Holy Bible if it wasn't important? Oh. and ALL of it is inspired by God. What God WANTS in the Bible IS in the Bible.
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:55 pm
The Samurai ooooooo... don't get me on taking the Bible word for word. Granted there are some things in the Old testiment that Jesus made obsolete (ie: Sacrificing) but the rest you need to take seriously.. Do you think God would put something in His Holy Bible if it wasn't important? Oh. and ALL of it is inspired by God. What God WANTS in the Bible IS in the Bible. Yeah, I think I misstated what I meant when I said most or all. Like in Ecclesiastes - It's not God specifically speaking through it, like literally, but the author's insights on life minus the presence of God. I just reread that and I don't think it makes any sense whatsoever...
Okay, so it's still being debated who the author of Ecclesiastes is, though some say it was King Solomon. Let's just go with that. So Solomon was very wise, but he also diverged from his faith later on in his life. If Ecclesiastes really was written by him, it seems like he wrote it during this period. He's living life like there is no God and is seeing the results of that and realizing life is pointless. Over and over again he says life is pointless, a chasing after the wind. But it's not God saying that - it's the author. However, God inspired the author to write that.
Did that make any sense?
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:59 pm
In regards to the men vs women thing, When God created Humans, Man came first. Woman second. God designed Men as the leader and women as the support. I can attest to the fact that most women are a heck of alot smarter, can multi-task, among various other things that men can't do. Like stand unbearable pain... but Man was set as the leader and as the leader he needs Woman to support him. I know I sound a little old fashioned but I think God designed it this way for a reason. I'm not sure of the full reason but in a Christian Marriage or Nation or Church, Man needs to be at the head. In marriage there is a trade off, the woman needs to be submissive to the husband but the husband is not off the hook, he needs to treat his wife better than himself. I think the writers of these passages were correct, I think that they were getting to the point that a woman should not lead a church. I think it is the mans position partially because men wouldn't listen to women in those days and even today some would be objective to having a woman lead. This is slightly different in regards to sharing God's word. Witnessing is a thing that ALL Christians are called to do. Men and women alike. It's the leading thing that should be left to men.
I do NOT mean to offend anyone but this is what I have learned from personally studying the Bible and hearing from others who have studied it in greater detail.
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 5:13 pm
Lithanus Zaierah ?women should remain silent in the churches? (1 Cor. 14). 1 Timothy 2. Here Paul said it even more clearly. He told us exactly what his practice was: ?I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man; she must be silent.?1 Tim 2:8-11 ? I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. [Men are to lead; women are to be modest, learning quietly, and in submission; in this way, they prove their claim to godliness.]1 Cor 11:3-10 ? But I would have you know, that the head [i.e., authority (Jdg. 11:10; Eph. 1:22)] of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. [Therefore, no inferiority is implied in submissiveness, only different God-ordained roles.] Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth [direct revelation (which is no longer an active gift for anyone, men or women), not normal preaching/teaching (prophesying and teaching were two distinct gifts?Eph. 4:11)] with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head [an abnormal situation for woman to pray or prophesy in public, and therefore, she must have a visible sign of authority over her]: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause [the created order] ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. [Paul again refers back to the order of creation, and that the angels are watching (Eph, 3:10), for his authority, not because of the curse of the Fall as some so-called ?Biblical feminists? contend.] [Paul is speaking here of conduct in meetings outside the church; he doesn?t speak to church conduct until verse 18; 1 Cor. 6:12-11:17 deals with personal conduct outside of corporate church meetings.] Prov 31:10-31 ? Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies. The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life. She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands. She is like the merchants? ships; she bringeth her food from afar. She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens. She considereth a field, and buyeth it [in order to plant and grow food for her family]: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard. [providing wine part of the provisions of the home, just as is providing of the food; i.e., she was not a ?real estate lady? as the so-called Biblical feminists teach today?she barters food, wine, garments, and sashes (vs. 24)] She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms. She perceiveth that her merchandise is good [bartering food and drink, not real estate speculation]: her candle goeth not out by night. She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff. She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy. She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet. She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple [a wealthy household, yet she works hard?no idleness]. Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land. [Her faithfulness in the home and with the home is very significant in her husband?s success.] She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant. [The issue of working women is not income; the focus must be the home, and income generated through the home, not outside of it.] Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come. [She has made provision for the future.] She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness. She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness. Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her. Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all. [The real credit comes to a woman from her children and from her husband.] Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised. Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates. The lord speaks for himself..i neednt say any words i dont know what denomination your from but to me that dosnt matter.. and my denomintion is this3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Im born again praise god but nothing wrong witha women talking about christ to people and going to a school ofr it just we cant lead a church heart You also have to keep in mind the context these passages were written in. In that culture, especialy at that time, women were second to men, and because of that any attempt of a woman leading in that situation would be very bad, because of all the people that would be offended by it, and God's message would not be reached. Here in America it is a little different, women have been given more rights and so it is not wrong for a woman to preach in this sense. Another thing to remember is this, God loves us all equally, and knows our hearts and knows our abilities. God will push those He feels are capable of leading to leading postions, regardless of gender. If He can forgive a gentile and allow them in to enter hevean even though they were not intended to enter hevean (since Jews were the original ones intended), shouldn't He be able to allow women to lead others to Christ just as men do? This is what I have learned.
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 5:23 pm
The Samurai In regards to the men vs women thing, When God created Humans, Man came first. Woman second. God designed Men as the leader and women as the support. I can attest to the fact that most women are a heck of alot smarter, can multi-task, among various other things that men can't do. Like stand unbearable pain... but Man was set as the leader and as the leader he needs Woman to support him. I know I sound a little old fashioned but I think God designed it this way for a reason. I'm not sure of the full reason but in a Christian Marriage or Nation or Church, Man needs to be at the head. In marriage there is a trade off, the woman needs to be submissive to the husband but the husband is not off the hook, he needs to treat his wife better than himself. I think the writers of these passages were correct, I think that they were getting to the point that a woman should not lead a church. I think it is the mans position partially because men wouldn't listen to women in those days and even today some would be objective to having a woman lead. This is slightly different in regards to sharing God's word. Witnessing is a thing that ALL Christians are called to do. Men and women alike. It's the leading thing that should be left to men. I do NOT mean to offend anyone but this is what I have learned from personally studying the Bible and hearing from others who have studied it in greater detail.
Woman was made from man's rib because he wanted her to be by his side to support him, but that does not by a long shot mean that a woman is beneath him, if that were true then we'd have come from the foot. Our gender roles may be different, but everyone is the same when it comes to the ministering of the holy spirit. We all have different gifts but it's still the same spirit. It has no gender rules and like I said earlier. od has no respect of persons. It's obvious that we all have different beliefs on this particular subject so I think we should leave it alone. Like I said earlier, God's word isn't to be debated over,It's whatever the revelation was that he gave to you.
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 5:27 pm
ElDestructo faeryatheart Yea, I agree with you. Plus, as she said earlier, we are just vessels, and gender shouldn't matter. Oh, and, the Bible is just guidelines, not a book that you have to go by in every aspect. It was written by man, not God. 3nodding Well, it was written by man, but most or all of it was directly inspired by God. But I think we know what you mean xd
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 5:37 pm
*pouts* Not fair! My comp is being dumb and I just can't upload pics! But I have some lovely ones of me and my BF. We just got engaged and so we had our first pics thank. Can anyone help me?!?
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 5:41 pm
Wow there are a lot of great posts in here you guys are really putting a lot of thought and study time into this! That is so great!
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 7:40 pm
Very interesting discussion in here.
I don't think God's word is something one should debate as well. But I would like to point out that the Bible can be used to support just about any idea man has. If one is studying God's word, I believe they should be led by the Holy Spirit so God can show to their soul what He means.
I know many pastor's and minister's who are women. My godmother is a Bishop. God does not give a person a ministry dependant on their race, social staus or gender. That's not like Him. What is like Him, is to provide what His people need.
True, the man should be the head of the household. But that is not always the case. In reality the church is not what is once was so I do not expect God to use it as it was once used. True, God never changes, but we His people do change. It's like what the Lord said concerning divorce in Matthew 19.
Topaz: may God annoint your steps.
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 11:45 pm
I guess I am a little old fashioned... I'm also pretty oldfashioned conservative... But I'll stick to my guns on what I said.
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