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 Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:40 am
nathan_ngl tsshark tsvi_tyl nathan_ngl Donovinhs Knight darkphoenix1247 For discussion purposes, though, why don't you believe in them? Its not that I dont believe in them, its just that I dont consider things which have explanations behind them as miracles. If they have a logical explanation, how is it a miracle? Do you just consider it a miracle even though a series of events led up to it? Its things like that which make me not believe in most miracles. If something happens though, with no explanation whatsoever then I could consider it a miracle. You should learn machshevet. That subject is strongly needed for people that think about miricals they way you do. What you said is also one of the most difficult causes for kfira in judaism according to the Rasa"g and Riha"l - Explaining miricals with rational explanations, and thus setting them aside. yeah i saw it in your exam notes... wink yea, but you don't know what "cha.ka.t. me.tu.m.ta.m." is rofl Strangely, I still do, even though the exam passed already... sweatdrop Machshevet? What's that? And I believe in miracles. Childbirth is a miracle. That I'm here is a miracle, more than just in that way... My mother was born with a birth defect no one detected until it became a major problem.... a weak blood vessel in her brain. People with this defect usually die by their early 20s or so... I was born when she was in her late 20s, almost 30... she shouldn't have lived long enough to give birth to me, much less my brother who was five years younger than me... yet, she lived until I was 11. I say... my life and his is a miracle, even more so than the usual child. But... every child is a miracle. Other miracles happen, too.... childbirth is just the easiest to see. And yet, I believe in science. I'm a "God drives science" type of person.
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Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:03 am
I'm sorry about your mother; that must be unimaginably difficult. sad
I am also under the belief that miracles do happen-as much as I believe in science, there are some things that I'm content with knowing can't be explained, other then the simple fact of religion and G-d.
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darkphoenix1247 Vice Captain
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Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:07 pm
darkphoenix1247 I'm sorry about your mother; that must be unimaginably difficult. sad I am also under the belief that miracles do happen-as much as I believe in science, there are some things that I'm content with knowing can't be explained, other then the simple fact of religion and G-d. all of Creation has reason and purpose; therefore, all of Creation can be explained. i'm sorry, but "contentful ignorance" just irks me.
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Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:12 pm
ZonkotheSane darkphoenix1247 I'm sorry about your mother; that must be unimaginably difficult. sad I am also under the belief that miracles do happen-as much as I believe in science, there are some things that I'm content with knowing can't be explained, other then the simple fact of religion and G-d. all of Creation has reason and purpose; therefore, all of Creation can be explained. i'm sorry, but "contentful ignorance" just irks me. It's not really "contentful ignorance." For example, I don't know the scientific explanation on exactly how the universe was created; I know theories- the string theory, the Big Band, antimatter, etc. but not the specific and real reason. I'm satisfied just knowing it was G-d.
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darkphoenix1247 Vice Captain
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Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:31 pm
darkphoenix1247 ZonkotheSane darkphoenix1247 I'm sorry about your mother; that must be unimaginably difficult. sad I am also under the belief that miracles do happen-as much as I believe in science, there are some things that I'm content with knowing can't be explained, other then the simple fact of religion and G-d. all of Creation has reason and purpose; therefore, all of Creation can be explained. i'm sorry, but "contentful ignorance" just irks me. It's not really "contentful ignorance." For example, I don't know the scientific explanation on exactly how the universe was created; I know theories- the string theory, the Big Band, antimatter, etc. but not the specific and real reason. I'm satisfied just knowing it was G-d. i see that. i just choose to look at it differently.
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Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:35 am
ZonkotheSane darkphoenix1247 ZonkotheSane darkphoenix1247 I'm sorry about your mother; that must be unimaginably difficult. sad I am also under the belief that miracles do happen-as much as I believe in science, there are some things that I'm content with knowing can't be explained, other then the simple fact of religion and G-d. all of Creation has reason and purpose; therefore, all of Creation can be explained. i'm sorry, but "contentful ignorance" just irks me. It's not really "contentful ignorance." For example, I don't know the scientific explanation on exactly how the universe was created; I know theories- the string theory, the Big Band, antimatter, etc. but not the specific and real reason. I'm satisfied just knowing it was G-d. i see that. i just choose to look at it differently. How do you look at it? (Don't worry; I'm not about to get offended at a different view point. rolleyes blaugh )
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darkphoenix1247 Vice Captain
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Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:09 pm
ZonkotheSane darkphoenix1247 I'm sorry about your mother; that must be unimaginably difficult. sad I am also under the belief that miracles do happen-as much as I believe in science, there are some things that I'm content with knowing can't be explained, other then the simple fact of religion and G-d. all of Creation has reason and purpose; therefore, all of Creation can be explained. i'm sorry, but "contentful ignorance" just irks me. I can't think of anything more horrifying than the prospect of knowing the reasoning behind everything. Most people would probably go insane from the simple limitations of their brains. Others would simply deny it. Maybe some would understand, while others would not. There are some things we should be content not knowing. Of course, that does not mean we should not try to understand what it does... It means why should not always try to understand HOW something works. Instead, we attempt to ask: WHY, and WHAT FOR. (For example: Understanding G-d. We do NOT try to comprehend what G-d is as a being, since it's impossible. However, we do try to learn from what G-d does, and what his midos are. We try to comprehend the good that he gives us, and try to become like him. This does not mean we understand what G-d is, it simply means we are trying to understand his actions - WHY, and WHAT they are FOR).
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Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 7:25 pm
nathan_ngl ZonkotheSane darkphoenix1247 I'm sorry about your mother; that must be unimaginably difficult. sad I am also under the belief that miracles do happen-as much as I believe in science, there are some things that I'm content with knowing can't be explained, other then the simple fact of religion and G-d. all of Creation has reason and purpose; therefore, all of Creation can be explained. i'm sorry, but "contentful ignorance" just irks me. I can't think of anything more horrifying than the prospect of knowing the reasoning behind everything. Most people would probably go insane from the simple limitations of their brains. Others would simply deny it. Maybe some would understand, while others would not. There are some things we should be content not knowing. Of course, that does not mean we should not try to understand what it does... It means why should not always try to understand HOW something works. Instead, we attempt to ask: WHY, and WHAT FOR. (For example: Understanding G-d. We do NOT try to comprehend what G-d is as a being, since it's impossible. However, we do try to learn from what G-d does, and what his midos are. We try to comprehend the good that he gives us, and try to become like him. This does not mean we understand what G-d is, it simply means we are trying to understand his actions - WHY, and WHAT they are FOR). That makes a lot of sense, and made me think. Thank you. 3nodding
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darkphoenix1247 Vice Captain
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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:09 am
darkphoenix1247 That makes a lot of sense, and made me think. Thank you. 3nodding That's mah'shevet 3nodding . We have these lessons quite often in our Yeshiva sweatdrop . It means: "Thinking".
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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:10 am
darkphoenix1247 ZonkotheSane darkphoenix1247 It's not really "contentful ignorance." For example, I don't know the scientific explanation on exactly how the universe was created; I know theories- the string theory, the Big Band, antimatter, etc. but not the specific and real reason. I'm satisfied just knowing it was G-d. i see that. i just choose to look at it differently. How do you look at it? (Don't worry; I'm not about to get offended at a different view point. rolleyes blaugh ) like naphtali said, some things are just beyond human comprehension, or else where not given for man to know. and i accept that. i know my limits. but there is a difference between knowing one's limits and being content with not knowing. there is always a deeper level. always. and maybe i'm just not able to reach that level. but does that mean i shouldn't strive to do so?
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darkphoenix1247 Vice Captain
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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:48 am
ZonkotheSane like naphtali said, some things are just beyond human comprehension, or else where not given for man to know. and i accept that. i know my limits. but there is a difference between knowing one's limits and being content with not knowing. there is always a deeper level. always. and maybe i'm just not able to reach that level. but does that mean i shouldn't strive to do so? Again, true. sweatdrop
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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:33 pm
I read an interesting book about jewish teenagers' questions about religion and god. The book is called "The questions you THOUGHT we we're afraid you'd ask - a Jewish outlook at common teenage issues". The third chapter is entitled: "Why do we need to learn so much??" And the answer starts off with the saying "Ignorance is not bliss". So true... ::sniff::
I also found the last chapter ammusing: "What's wrong with premature sex?", the answer pushed off with "What's right with it?".
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darkphoenix1247 Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:58 pm
nathan_ngl I read an interesting book about jewish teenagers' questions about religion and god. The book is called "The questions you THOUGHT we we're afraid you'd ask - a Jewish outlook at common teenage issues". The third chapter is entitled: "Why do we need to learn so much??" And the answer starts off with the saying "Ignorance is not bliss". So true... ::sniff:: I also found the last chapter ammusing: "What's wrong with premature sex?", the answer pushed off with "What's right with it?". nice. Ignorance is somewhat bliss, but once you get some knowledge, you never want to be ignorant again, despite however horrid the truth is.
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Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:16 am
darkphoenix1247 nathan_ngl I read an interesting book about jewish teenagers' questions about religion and god. The book is called "The questions you THOUGHT we we're afraid you'd ask - a Jewish outlook at common teenage issues". The third chapter is entitled: "Why do we need to learn so much??" And the answer starts off with the saying "Ignorance is not bliss". So true... ::sniff:: I also found the last chapter ammusing: "What's wrong with premature sex?", the answer pushed off with "What's right with it?". nice. Ignorance is somewhat bliss, but once you get some knowledge, you never want to be ignorant again, despite however horrid the truth is. Exactly. And since we know that the big old truth is out there, being ignorant doesn't sound very bliss, especially if your a curious person, and big thinker, like I know you are smile .
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Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:02 am
Donovinhs Knight nathan_ngl Tell me, is the creation of the world explainable? Is the creation of man? Is the very fact of life, a new born baby, a tree from a tiny seed... are those all explainable? Or are they really miricals? creation of the world, yes and no depending on the source you look at. scientifically there is just guess so its not a true explanation, religiously its explainable but that would be a miracle. same with creation of man. these are miracles because g-d made them happen out of thin air. growth of a life form can be explaned through an understanding of how its created. so babies, trees and any life that grows isnt a miracle in my opinion Alright. Before I read the rest of this thread there is something, as a woman, that I need to get out. A baby in the womb of its mother is one of the most bizarre and miraculus things that can happen. Scientists may know exactly what happens from conception until birth, biut it is still a "mystery" How a woman can have another Living Being inside her, supply it with All of that blood and All of those nutrients and still be able to function normally herself, let alone live. The fact that a woman can do that, that a life can be created from another and be nutured by that same life. THAT is the miracle of birth, life, and the creation of a baby.
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