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Friendly Conversationalist
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 Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:17 pm
Hinote Tosatsu HadoKennie Alright this question has been running through my head ever since you guys announced the new system. How does this work with personal styles. Like my character for example has the scroll for the complete fighting style somewhere in his room. If he read the scroll does he automatically learn the entire style? Technically, I suppose yes... When the currency system was released though any scrolls currently in people's possession were to be returned, to prevent people from cheating with the old system of just grabbing whatever you wanted from the library. Not sure how that'd work in your particular case though. Did your character develop the style personally in RP, or is it meant to be an inherited scroll or something, or, what? (Because really I wouldn't care all that much normally, but with the newer system it'd be a bit... Wrong, to basically let you autolearn an entire fighting style without paying for it at all. It's kind of both. I was going to say that the scroll is passed down from his family or given to him from somebody that taught him the basics
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Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:53 am
I'd like to return attention to this discussion. Please let us know how you feel about the base idea given in the first post, and any alterations or additions you would like to see. The sooner we have determined whether this is a popular idea or not, the sooner we can finalize it and either add it, or work on a different option. Thank you.
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Hinote Tosatsu Vice Captain
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Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:48 pm
I made a more detailed response to many things said within this thread, but it was deleted. Since I'm in no mood to reread all this, rewrite it, and then have it be deleted again here's what input i have the energy to give. You asked for crew to start giving input.
I dont like the idea. It creates several shortcuts, several problems, undermines existing rules all over the place, and doesn't actually make things much better (just breaks them in a different way). The training system could be fixed, but mastery is not necessary. It could be fixed a lot easier and with far less problems. Simply alter the training numbers. Noone should be able to learn any jutsu for less than 2 posts, and never need more than 9.
Don't bring in the "this is not a mastery system" BS because it is. It is a mastery system meant to completely replace the learning system. Basically it isn't a learning system, you learn everything on the first try.
Final thoughts. We need to decide on this soon, because it's beginning to hinder other projects. Nothing which affects learning rates can be revamped if it might be invalidated soon.
I've said it before, and while It's been seen and turned down more than once I will say it again. Just put the darn thing to a vote and get it over with.
(Hinote: If for some reason you delete this too I won't let go easy)
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:32 am
I'm against it, I'm completely against it.
Not only would you have to work out the tremendous holes in this system, you'd have to edit almost all of the current systems in order to function with this system. Types, Professions, even the Chakra system are unusable with this system.
And I'll say it again, under this system, with the capability of learning techniques 2 ranks, and possibly even 3 ranks above my character's rank, I could just buy the A rank jutsu Luo's character used, take support type, and then assassin profession, and I could kill anyone in one hit. As a genin... I could take a different bloodline or something, but this system is capable of being HEAVILY abused. Training posts suck, we all know they do, but they are necessary. Not only would this system negate some of the weaknesses of the current bloodlines/clans/types/professions, but it would make us have to edit ALL OF THOSE THINGS! A genin can't crack open a scroll and learn what it entails. They aren't smart enough to do so.
In my opinion, this makes it so that some people who have to do large amounts of training posts, even though they knew their character would have to do that number of training posts at the character's creation, don't have to expend any effort to do what they knew their character would have to do when they created it. I mean seriously, this would make it so that there is no need for tactical shinobi other than you can react faster. That's all well and fine, but if you can react, but you can't move fast enough, then you're still screwed. Tactical is amazing because it counts as " Hey, my character is smart! They can discern things from small clues. They're kinda like Sherlock Holmes in a mini version at lower levels, and like the actual Holmes at around A rank! " Take that away and you're stuck with, " I can react quickly! Wait, I'm still getting hit because my character can't move as fast as the guy who took speed type. Wait, I'm taking considerable amounts of damage because they also took offensive type? " This would make a balanced system unbalanced.
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Hinote Tosatsu Vice Captain
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:30 am
TvIaMsOqTuHeYz I'm against it, I'm completely against it. Not only would you have to work out the tremendous holes in this system, you'd have to edit almost all of the current systems in order to function with this system. Types, Professions, even the Chakra system are unusable with this system. Any alterations to types and professions are covered in the documentation for this system, and could be altered whenever the crew had time to work on it. Please explain how this affects the chakra system in any way, much less making it unusable? Quote: And I'll say it again, under this system, with the capability of learning techniques 2 ranks, and possibly even 3 ranks above my character's rank, I could just buy the A rank jutsu Luo's character used, take support type, and then assassin profession, and I could kill anyone in one hit. As a genin... I could take a different bloodline or something, but this system is capable of being HEAVILY abused. Training posts suck, we all know they do, but they are necessary. Okay. And, if this is possible with this new system, it must also be possible with the current system as well. So, rather than being an issue with this system, it is a flaw in other systems that should be looked at as such. This system does not create that problem. For it to exist, it must exist already. Quote: A genin can't crack open a scroll and learn what it entails. They aren't smart enough to do so. "A shinobi may not purchase nor self teach any jutsu above their own rank." That one line, added to the currency system and learning system, would solve both this and the previous issue. Quote: In my opinion, this makes it so that some people who have to do large amounts of training posts, even though they knew their character would have to do that number of training posts at the character's creation, don't have to expend any effort to do what they knew their character would have to do when they created it. As has been gone over multiple times, the effort is still very much there, simply in the time it would take to gather the funds necessary for learning. This makes nothing easier, just less tedious. Quote: I mean seriously, this would make it so that there is no need for tactical shinobi other than you can react faster. That's all well and fine, but if you can react, but you can't move fast enough, then you're still screwed. Tactical is amazing because it counts as " Hey, my character is smart! They can discern things from small clues. They're kinda like Sherlock Holmes in a mini version at lower levels, and like the actual Holmes at around A rank! " Take that away and you're stuck with, " I can react quickly! Wait, I'm still getting hit because my character can't move as fast as the guy who took speed type. Wait, I'm taking considerable amounts of damage because they also took offensive type? " This would make a balanced system unbalanced. Making the learning posts side of tactical would remove their intelligence? I fail to see how you have reached that conclusion. There have been many suggestions from various crew members over time to remove or reduce that learning bonus anyways. Furthermore, the bonus would still be intact with this system, just in a different form, as can be seen from reading it thoroughly.
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:28 am
I like the system. The whole concept of mastering a jutsu is a little exciting, because it gives some incentive for using your newly-learned techniques in battle to improve your skill with that technique. I think this should especially be assigned to learning Taijutsu because of this.
Learning a new technique is boring because we typically learn them alone and they may not use them again, only learning for the sake of learning. I think the mastery system will make players think a little more about what technique they learn and find new creative ways to use those techniques by utilizing them in battle.
However there are a few things I don't really like about the system...
1.) Learning a jutsu in post:
It just doesn't work out well realistically. Not everybody will be able to just learn a jutsu on their irst try. I saw that every rank still has a set amount of posts to learn, they just don't have to be as high as the current learning requirements. On top of that we can have the mastery system which will also have a lesser amount of 'mastery' posts required so we can compensate for having more than one post to learn a jutsu.
2.) Extra post-action for unlearned jutsu
Yeah, I really don't understand why this needs to be implemented. Requiring 2+ posts for a jutsu to activate is a pretty ridiculous penalty for not mastering a jutsu.
3.) Power Reductions
I think dropping the power of a technique by 2 ranks in too excessive unless that jutsu is above A-rank. If we really must tier the mastery system like this then your characters rank should be able to play apart in the reduction of strength. For example learning a jutsu of lesser rank should only decrease it's strength to a maximum of one rank. A jutsu of equal rank should decrease the rank by 1.5 ranks, and a jutsu of greater rank would decrease by 2 ranks.
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:07 pm
When the crew has time to work on it could be a very very very long time. As far as I can tell, the crew is You, Hikaro, Luo, and Greg. That is the entire crew that has been active as of late. So between 4 of you updating all of the professions, all of the types, and any talent that involves learning a technique, it doesn't stand to chance that it would be done within a month after the implementation of the system. I don't even think you'd be done with it in 3-4 months. Revamping the learning system would require the revamping of several other systems that alone took a while to be implemented. How long did it take for the professions to take full form in their original version? What about the shinobi types? Divvy this between only 4 active members of the crew, and you've got quite a problem on your hands. It'll probably drive crew activity down, and inevitably drive member activity down as well.
I was thinking of Chakra costs, that is my blunder. I'm multitasking between watching my nieces, and typing this, so some of my thoughts go a little off track, and I'm not thinking 100% clearly. ( Somehow I tied Chakra control shinobi type to it. )
Say, couldn't a talent easily fix this? Aren't there existing talents that allow for the learning of techniques above your own rank? Also, what happens when someone is the only active member of the village, or has more than double the mission points necessary to rank up twice in our ranking system, should they be restricted simply because they can't rank up to learn new techniques, or crew won't give them an NPC teacher to teach them? ( Also, if I remember correctly, Scroll learner the Teacher benefit covers this. )
And NO, the effort is not still there. If you're going to learn the technique you're an idiot if you don't use it in combat. It's like if I took a class in how to make a robot, and I spend my time as a missionary in Africa. Why the crap would I have learned how to do advanced electronics and robotics to be purifying water? If you learn a technique, then you should use it until you understand it fully. Take my use of the Suna sand taijutsu. I went through the training posts, with someone explaining things to me, and it still backfired. So if someone is using the technique over and over to master it, without anyone to tell them what to do, because they will STILL be doing this alone, since we don't have the active member basis to promote sparring to learn techniques. Which why would this apply to anything aside from taijutsu? I'm pretty sure that calling a bolt of lightning from the heavens capable of destroying a giant pillar of sandstone would be treason, and attempted murder, EVEN if it was only C rank in strength. Long story short, it makes EVERYTHING easier. Raphael would have absolutely no need for Yasashii, he can just crack open a scroll and learn sealing arts that would require diligent study. And what did he do to earn this right? He tracked down a cat multiple times. ( Oh, wait, in PotS it is a dog. )
The Type itself doesn't refer to anything as intelligence, so I know for a fact that the post reduction is the intelligence, how else are you supposed to be able to understand abstract chakra control theory and reproduce it at an accelerated rate? Being naturally good at utilizing your chakra is the only other way, but even that isn't nearly as good as being intelligent. Being smart doesn't allow you to dodge, it allows you to learn. An idiot can dodge. While it couldn't hurt, it certainly isn't a linear trait. Taijutsu specialists can dodge easily. Is Rock Lee a scholar of chakra, or jutsu theory? No, hell no. Is Might Guy? Again, no. Is Sakura/Sasuke/Shikimaru? Yes, of course they are! Sakura can explain advanced theory like it is nothing, even making it easy enough Naruto ( Who even Lee and Guy are more intelligent than. ) could understand it. Sasuke couldn't word it as fluently as Sakura, but he understood basic theory. And Shikimaru... Do I even need to explain anything for the genius of the leaves? I'm basically saying reaction is not =/> intelligence.
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:58 pm
I don't see how spamming a few forced posts about performing a jutsu is a better alternative to this system. It is a lot easier to misunderstand the abilities of a technique this way as compared to sparring against another opponent.
Yes, the guild is REALLY lacking in an active member base but honestly we can work on that and unique learning systems could be a way to attract new people. Also, again I propose it takes longer to learn techniques as opposed to one post.
Also, personally I believe ALL of the guilds missions suck! If we had more Chuunin and Jonin I would propose we just write up mission guidelines for the difficulty of the mission and leave up to the team leader to DM everything for their squad. Also, can we please get rid of the catching dogs BS missions. Honestly since nobody starts at Academy we have no need for missions for them and Genin should perform tasks that a police offer would perform; arresting disorderly civilians and patrol the town blah blah blah.
But one thing I FIRMLY believe this system should apply to is learning Taijutsu/Kenjutsu. They learn what is necessary for the technique and unlock its full potential through combat experience. C'MON THAT JUST SOUNDS EXCITING. I actually want to fight taijutsu battles where both combatants are developing their techniques!
Finally, how would this significantly effect professions? Honestly we just need to change any learning bonus to apply to the system and all learning bonuses are typically the same in that they basically just reduce post counts.
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Hinote Tosatsu Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:48 am
I've let this topic slip a bit recently, for which I am sorry. I'll be responding to all posts after my last here today, though they may not all be right away, since I'm working against time at this very moment. Martin Spiralwave I like the system. The whole concept of mastering a jutsu is a little exciting, because it gives some incentive for using your newly-learned techniques in battle to improve your skill with that technique. I think this should especially be assigned to learning Taijutsu because of this. Learning a new technique is boring because we typically learn them alone and they may not use them again, only learning for the sake of learning. I think the mastery system will make players think a little more about what technique they learn and find new creative ways to use those techniques by utilizing them in battle. However there are a few things I don't really like about the system... 1.) Learning a jutsu in post: It just doesn't work out well realistically. Not everybody will be able to just learn a jutsu on their irst try. I saw that every rank still has a set amount of posts to learn, they just don't have to be as high as the current learning requirements. On top of that we can have the mastery system which will also have a lesser amount of 'mastery' posts required so we can compensate for having more than one post to learn a jutsu. 2.) Extra post-action for unlearned jutsu Yeah, I really don't understand why this needs to be implemented. Requiring 2+ posts for a jutsu to activate is a pretty ridiculous penalty for not mastering a jutsu. 3.) Power Reductions I think dropping the power of a technique by 2 ranks in too excessive unless that jutsu is above A-rank. If we really must tier the mastery system like this then your characters rank should be able to play apart in the reduction of strength. For example learning a jutsu of lesser rank should only decrease it's strength to a maximum of one rank. A jutsu of equal rank should decrease the rank by 1.5 ranks, and a jutsu of greater rank would decrease by 2 ranks. 1. This was included because, despite current rules, almost everyone learns their jutsu in a single post anyways, just considering each paragraph, or even line, a post for the sake of their learning. Obviously people didn't like putting time into the posts, so that was removed. We will never be able to create a learning system that combines ease of learning, with realistic timing. It's just never going to happen, so why bother try? (Realistic learning time would be a system requiring likely hundreds of posts, or even time limits between learning posts and such.) 2. This was originally handled by not allowing multiple uses of unmastered jutsu in a single post (For combo users.). However, that left the flaw of some branches having no limitation at all, such as sealing. Extending casting time solves that issue, as well as being a bit more realistic that someone being able to whip out a jutsu they have no experience with in a matter of seconds. 3. The power reductions are compensation for the removal of learning posts. Making it take longer to "Master" the jutsu, and weakening the effect makes it safer to allow the much faster learning. Higher ranks have higher penalties for the same reason as they have more post requirements in the current system. (I can see altering the numbers a bit though.) I have to run now, so I'll take care of Timmy's post when I get back, and Martin's next after that. (Might even do something with Hikaro's.)
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Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:27 am
TvIaMsOqTuHeYz When the crew has time to work on it could be a very very very long time. As far as I can tell, the crew is You, Hikaro, Luo, and Greg. That is the entire crew that has been active as of late. So between 4 of you updating all of the professions, all of the types, and any talent that involves learning a technique, it doesn't stand to chance that it would be done within a month after the implementation of the system. I don't even think you'd be done with it in 3-4 months. Revamping the learning system would require the revamping of several other systems that alone took a while to be implemented. How long did it take for the professions to take full form in their original version? What about the shinobi types? Divvy this between only 4 active members of the crew, and you've got quite a problem on your hands. It'll probably drive crew activity down, and inevitably drive member activity down as well. I was thinking of Chakra costs, that is my blunder. I'm multitasking between watching my nieces, and typing this, so some of my thoughts go a little off track, and I'm not thinking 100% clearly. ( Somehow I tied Chakra control shinobi type to it. ) Say, couldn't a talent easily fix this? Aren't there existing talents that allow for the learning of techniques above your own rank? Also, what happens when someone is the only active member of the village, or has more than double the mission points necessary to rank up twice in our ranking system, should they be restricted simply because they can't rank up to learn new techniques, or crew won't give them an NPC teacher to teach them? ( Also, if I remember correctly, Scroll learner the Teacher benefit covers this. ) And NO, the effort is not still there. If you're going to learn the technique you're an idiot if you don't use it in combat. It's like if I took a class in how to make a robot, and I spend my time as a missionary in Africa. Why the crap would I have learned how to do advanced electronics and robotics to be purifying water? If you learn a technique, then you should use it until you understand it fully. Take my use of the Suna sand taijutsu. I went through the training posts, with someone explaining things to me, and it still backfired. So if someone is using the technique over and over to master it, without anyone to tell them what to do, because they will STILL be doing this alone, since we don't have the active member basis to promote sparring to learn techniques. Which why would this apply to anything aside from taijutsu? I'm pretty sure that calling a bolt of lightning from the heavens capable of destroying a giant pillar of sandstone would be treason, and attempted murder, EVEN if it was only C rank in strength. Long story short, it makes EVERYTHING easier. Raphael would have absolutely no need for Yasashii, he can just crack open a scroll and learn sealing arts that would require diligent study. And what did he do to earn this right? He tracked down a cat multiple times. ( Oh, wait, in PotS it is a dog. ) The Type itself doesn't refer to anything as intelligence, so I know for a fact that the post reduction is the intelligence, how else are you supposed to be able to understand abstract chakra control theory and reproduce it at an accelerated rate? Being naturally good at utilizing your chakra is the only other way, but even that isn't nearly as good as being intelligent. Being smart doesn't allow you to dodge, it allows you to learn. An idiot can dodge. While it couldn't hurt, it certainly isn't a linear trait. Taijutsu specialists can dodge easily. Is Rock Lee a scholar of chakra, or jutsu theory? No, hell no. Is Might Guy? Again, no. Is Sakura/Sasuke/Shikimaru? Yes, of course they are! Sakura can explain advanced theory like it is nothing, even making it easy enough Naruto ( Who even Lee and Guy are more intelligent than. ) could understand it. Sasuke couldn't word it as fluently as Sakura, but he understood basic theory. And Shikimaru... Do I even need to explain anything for the genius of the leaves? I'm basically saying reaction is not =/> intelligence. Sorry, sorry. Guess I made myself a liar a bit. In my defense, I ran into some very distracting things. When I said things could be edited to fit this whenever the crew had time, I meant it. The system has a fail safe built in that automatically converts any learning bonuses to match the system. Any edits after that can be done, literally, at our leisure, but will most likely be done fairly quickly since we're already working on most things that have any relevance to it. Will it take months? Probably. Not because of how much needs to be done to compensate for this one system, but because we probably won't bother altering certain things until we get to them in the main revamp, because we don't need to. I'm pretty sure I haven't passed any talents that allow learning above your own rank. I know if I did, it must have been very well done, because I don't like the implications of that. (Fairly sure I've denied more than one for you with that ability.) Ranking up, I'm not sure how you're putting that into this system, since the issue doesn't seem to affect this one at all. It's actually more prevalent in the one we have now than this suggestion. However, ranking up has been altered a bit, and we'll probably be releasing the edited rules for that today or tomorrow. I think those alone will solve your problem as written here. And the scroll learner benefit is most likely going to be removed or highly altered since it doesn't really give any bonus since the release of the currency system. The effort is still there, by way of the requirements for even getting your hands on the jutsu scrolls, and then the work to get the jutsu up to full power. I'm going to quote a couple of posts I made in crew areas to give an example of what I mean by effort. The first is from a suggestion for going in and redoing the ranking system to be a bit easier. Quote: I checked to see what David would need to do to be eligible to rank up to jounin. Not bothering with the missions, I looked first at the other requirements. Namely, jutsu. Learn all available C ranked jutsu. It seems simple at first. Especially for a chuunin or special jounin who, by default only have two elements and universal to worry about. David has four. Earth, Fire, Sand, Wind. Plus universal. And there is no specification that it's only ninjutsu either, so you also have to count genjutsu and taijutsu into your required learning. For David, not counting what he already knows, that means learning fifteen earth jutsu, eleven fire, nine sand, eight wind, and from four to eight universal, depending on edits. Add to that eighteen genjutsu, ten universal taijutsu, and three demon jutsu, and you have seventy eight, or eighty two, total required jutsu. Include the currency system, and that is a total cost of 46,800 to 49,200 gold. The value of twenty two S ranked missions. Or, more realistically for rank, one hundred and ten C ranked missions. And that isn't counting all the lower ranked jutsu that may be required as prerequisites, and even were they not, I would automatically seek to learn first. Beyond that, by the current learning system that is, without counting bonuses, five hundred and seventy four learning posts. For a good post each (About four hundred words.), that is 229,600 words. Even for the best of us, and not taking into account activity levels for those running mission NPCs, that essentially means that David ranking up to jounin, much less anything higher and more fitting of his station, will take well over a year or two. Counting the training alone, if I wrote exactly one thousand words of training a day, it would take two hundred and thirty days. Nearly a year for the training alone. Missions of that rank could also take anywhere from a few days to a few weeks each, depending on activity. And the second is from the crew equivalent of this debate. Quote: Let's take a quick look at learning a D ranked jutsu under the current systems. In this first example, we use only E ranked missions, the easiest possible route, though also the most tedious. (Recall this is a genin too, so C ranks are out of bounds.) ~ E Ranks - Five to six posts a mission. 4 Missions - 20 Posts 400 Words a post - 8,000 Words 1,000 Words a day - 8 days 1 Post to buy jutsu - One more to travel to training area. 5 Posts to learn jutsu - 2,000 Words 27 Total Posts - 10,800 Total Words - 11 Days ~ Using good sized posts in every post, as could be hoped for from any RPer in this semi-literate guild, at 1,000 words a day, that's 11 days to learn a simple D ranked jutsu. One jutsu. Let's look at D ranks now, since these have a much higher payout, thus ought to be faster, right? ~ D Ranks - Up to 9 posts a mission 2 Missions - 18 Posts 400 Words a post - 7,200 Words 1,000 Words a day - 7-8 Days 2 Posts attaining jutsu as before 5 Learning - 2,000 Words 25 Total Posts - 10,000 Words - 10 Days ~ With the increase in required posts for the missions, this is still capable of taking a long time. Nine posts is about the top limit, but still, it reaches ten days for a literate RPer to learn a single D ranked jutsu. Now, the much more efficient method, of one D, and one E rank mission, which is plenty sufficient to get the required funds. ~ 1D 1E Rank - Five and Nine posts 1 5 Post, 1 9 Post - 14 Posts 400 Words a post - 5,600 Words 1,000 Words a day - 6 Days 2 Posts attaining Jutsu 5 Learning - 2,000 Words 21 Total Posts - 8,400 Total Words - 8-9 Days ~ Even at this reduced number of missions required, it turns out that it's still taking up to nine days to learn that single jutsu. In all of these cases, at 1,000 words a day and 400 a post, learning the jutsu alone too a full two days. But of course, 400 word posts are not very likely in this guild, despite our claim at being a literate guild, so let's look at the more likely 75 word posts. ~ E - 2075 Words - 2 Days D - 1,875 Words - 2 Days 1E 1D - 1,575 Words - 1-2 Days ~ Even with only 75 words a post, it takes two days for these 1,000 word a day posters to learn a simple jutsu. Not as extreme as before, but still excessive. Note however that in every case, the mission post requirements meet, and always even exceed, the required posts for learning the jutsu. Now, the first doesn't take this system into consideration at all, but does show the amount of effort I, with David, would have to go through to learn all of the C ranked jutsu available to him. This is a required amount for ranking up to jounin in the current/old ranking system. I didn't calculate missions and all that into that like I did the latter quote, so all you see there is the pure learning effort. To be clear, that's an argument against the current learning rates. Then comes the money. As you can tell at a glance, the required gold amount is incredibly high for that. In fact, with the equivalent MP to gold, I could probably be S ranked after doing that many missions. So, if the mission effort is enough to get me to S rank, tacking on, as noted, almost a year of boring self learning, feels highly excessive. Before adding the currency system, we had no way to regulate how fast people could learn new jutsu, which is why the current learning system was needed. With the currency system, there is more regulation than ever, and the learning system itself becomes redundant. I'm not sure how to respond to most of the rest of that paragraph, except to say, try using the missions list from Suna. In that, the animal could very well be a rattlesnake, or giant anteater, or something. The type doesn't reference intelligence, so obviously X part of it means intelligence? You do realize how contradictory that is, right? Anyways, one, the learning benefit is still there, just altered. Read that segment of the system and you'll understand. The reaction time bonus, also, is not a physical bonus such as "Dodging". Seeing as the bonus is named "Tactical", one assumes that the tactician is able to see at least a few moves ahead of their enemy. By merit of that, they see what is happening and translate it to the end result faster than anyone else, giving themselves time to react, even without the necessary speed. Is Shikamaru faster than Lee? Of course not. Could he avoid Lee's attacks long enough to lead him into a trap by way of predicting or leading his movements? Yes. Yes he could.
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Hinote Tosatsu Vice Captain
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Hinote Tosatsu Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:34 am
Martin Spiralwave Also, personally I believe ALL of the guilds missions suck! If we had more Chuunin and Jonin I would propose we just write up mission guidelines for the difficulty of the mission and leave up to the team leader to DM everything for their squad. Also, can we please get rid of the catching dogs BS missions. Honestly since nobody starts at Academy we have no need for missions for them and Genin should perform tasks that a police offer would perform; arresting disorderly civilians and patrol the town blah blah blah. Cool, this is the only bit I need to address here. Mission difficulty guidelines can be found in the mission portion of the mission/ranking system thread. And I have posted multiple times in multiple places a thread for suggesting new missions and mission types. If you're interested, I'll gladly revive that, or post a new thread if the old is gone. The list I've been using for Suna is a lot more flexible than the old lists, and has a lot more depth to it than the honestly pathetic missions the guild had before.
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Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:50 am
Hinote: Some minor comments. You know that the new ranking system doesn't necessarily require you to learn any jutsu, so you are using old systems to argue your case. Why would anyone need to learn that many jutsu now? there's no real reason, they can pretty much pick and choose and most people won't choose to spend money/learning time on a jutsu they don't think they will ever use.
What would happen to all the jutsu people have already learned, specifically jutsu requiring several posts?
Martin: New missions can be made yaknow, genin can't just make something up, but ranking village members can give creative missions as well. I've ranted on these complaints several times in the past, but basically not many genin missions will be that tough. Certainly not academy missions, but they are still worth keeping since they are very easy to do and get just a little more MP or gold if you need it.
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Hinote Tosatsu Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:02 pm
I am fully aware, which is why I said it was a requirement of the current/old ranking system. Most players will still want to learn most, if not all, that they have available to them, so specifying instead that it was just the learning of C ranks is still valid. Simply being a description of learning difficulty rather than ranking, is still a valid point. Given that, as discovered through the second quote I used, the missions themselves will in most cases take longer than just learning the jutsu, and considering activity rates for multi-person or NPC run missions, the same achievement, even without counting the learning system, would take well over a year. With both? Multiple years.
I for one am still going to try to learn all of my available sand jutsu, and at least start on other elements, before applying for promotion.
What do you mean by what would happen to learned jutsu? I don't understand the question. If you're asking how the new system would affect, them, or if their power would be reduced as described for jutsu learned in this system, they wouldn't be. The fact that players have already learned them by way of the old system anyways means they have done the work, and shouldn't have to jump through another hoop added afterwards.
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Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:34 pm
Ah, it is fine Hinote.
I understand that it would be done when the crew had time, but it just seems like it would be far too long until it actually got done. Not so much against the crew, or even the system, just something I've noticed.
Ah, but there are bloodlines that allow it. And when I talked about ranking up, I was meaning that if no one else is in the village, like a leader, or a higher shinobi, then they can't even rank up. And as the only active member of the village, they'd be less likely to run missions.
So instead of having the learning posts, you're exchanging them for mastery posts instead? Why not make it so that instead of learning post reductions, we have mastery post reduction for the types? And I still say the effort isn't there. Sure it takes a while, but if you want something and you only post 1000 words a day, then you're really not gunning for what you want.
People should post at the least 5000 words a day, which reduces everything to about 4 days. So your 200 days of mastering C rank jutsu makes it so that you do this in only 40 days, a little over a month. I think that you'd be able to do that, very easily in fact.
Don't get me wrong, your numbers are daunting and they've shaken me considerably, but I'm still firm on my thought that if people would become more active we'd ba able to get money faster, and train faster. I mean with Post reductions, at the least you get -3 to learn a technique right now.
Also, why would David want to learn all of them? Half of them, if not more he would have no use for. I mean he could use them, but it wouldn't make much sense. It would be surprising to someone like Jishaku if David turned around and threw a fireball at him. But other than a shock attack, he wouldn't really use some of those techniques.
Had no way to regulate it? Remember that we had to have someone of at least Chunin rank give us the scrolls, or if we weren't teachers, we had to have someone take their own time to teach us the techniques. It was fairly regulated, but people started to complain and then the rules got lax. ( Rules around here tend to get bent a bit when it comes to learning, don't they? )
I haven't messed with it in Suna, but I know that Laxus spent time chasing a stupid chihuahua. ( I dislike Chihuahuas. ) I'm just saying that it would be kinda annoying messing with missions like that. Plus, like I said, this system makes Yasashii close to useless, unless people are slightly mental once Raphael gets to that area of power. He could do that for pretty much free, where as Yasashii would take quite a bit.
Not true. If someone can react, then they need the speed to react. Shikimaru could dodge Rock Lee only so long as Shikimaru could see his movements. Shikimaru could watch the shadow, since that would tell where Rock Lee is at at all times, but otherwise he'd be hard pressed to even dodge a severe blow. I can know you're going to punch me, but without speed, I might not be able to dodge the entire blow. Reaction ability isn't capable of giving you the right to dodge someone faster than you. Maybe moving a bit away from a killing blow or a serious blow, but not completely if the attack is that harmful.
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Hinote Tosatsu Vice Captain
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Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:27 am
Time thankfully doesn't matter for this one, thanks to the bonus clause dictated in the system itself.
This isn't exactly an issue with this system. However, if you are somehow the only active member of your village, qualify for promotion, and have no village leader to handle it, you are free to make a request to crew for your promotion. As the highest ranking member of Suna, being the leader, that's what I'll have to do when the time comes anyways. I would think being alone in the village would make you more likely to do missions. Then, at least, you have something to do rather than sitting alone doing nothing.
That's exactly what the fail safe does. Learning bonuses are directly translated to reductions in "Mastery".
The longest post I have ever made, as seen in recent Suna chat posts, totals 4,648 words. It took me two days to write it. My longest POTS post was a learning post of slightly over 1,000 words, and took me several hours to write. If you're writing alone, making giant posts, while easier, is incredibly tedious. Yes, it's not that hard when working alone to exceed 1,000 words, but it's a drain on time and energy. And when in a group, it's unlikely to happen at all. Look at the Suna battle. Do you think I could hit 1,000 words a day there, much less 5,000? I used 1,000 words in my examples because it's a large number, but still not that strenuous to reach. If I attempted to do 5,000 a day of just self learning, I would burn myself out in less than a week.
Why would David want to learn everything available to him? Because he'd have a use for it. Plain and simple.
Learning doesn't effect only genin. As a special jounin in the old system I'd have unlimited access to any jutsu I wanted. Genin were also given this ability eventually, due to the fact that we simply didn't have enough active teachers to handle them all. And even before that, genin were still getting their hands on scrolls without asking anyways.
(The chihuahua was added to the mission by Hikaro I believe.)
Yasashii can do a lot more than just teach. Adding a simpler learning system doesn't exactly make him useless.
If you know where someone is going to be before they get there, it is a simple matter to not be there when they arrive. That is the tactical reaction bonus. It's obviously not going to work to let you dodge at point blank. Nothing will allow that.
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