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 Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:48 pm
Beware the Jabberwock Mcphee I mean, sure, niceties are one thing, but it can sometimes get to the point where we're just being doormats.
Those filthy democrats.
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Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:40 pm
I agree, completely. I think it helps, though, when you are assertive and return that person's attitude, in any type of debate. Then they start to slow down a bit. This reply was kind of pointless, but that's my mind.
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Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:49 pm
Quote: 2) Pro-lifers don't believe that the right to an abortion falls under the catagory of "women's rights." But on a purely ethical basis. It's not as though it's omitted like some political platform, she doesn't view it as right so she doesn't even see it as a "feminist" issue. Actually, being a feminist is contradictory to being pro-choice. Children is (The Third Children!) the strongest represenation of the mother figure, and the mother figure is the ultimate symbol for the woman. To seperate that family aspect... is to remove the woman from her identity as the keeper of the household and the matriarch of the family. She's no longer a mother as I would no longer be a "father" if I let the woman do all the work while I sat down on a chair and drank beer all day. Or maybe that would just kill her identity as being female since being a feminist is more of a liberatarian take on things... I'm confused.
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:19 am
kp606 Quote: 2) Pro-lifers don't believe that the right to an abortion falls under the catagory of "women's rights." But on a purely ethical basis. It's not as though it's omitted like some political platform, she doesn't view it as right so she doesn't even see it as a "feminist" issue. Actually, being a feminist is contradictory to being pro-choice. Children is (The Third Children!) the strongest represenation of the mother figure, and the mother figure is the ultimate symbol for the woman. To seperate that family aspect... is to remove the woman from her identity as the keeper of the household and the matriarch of the family. She's no longer a mother as I would no longer be a "father" if I let the woman do all the work while I sat down on a chair and drank beer all day. Or maybe that would just kill her identity as being female since being a feminist is more of a liberatarian take on things... I'm confused. oO you can't be serious. I don't know whether to laugh because you're joking, or cry because you are that misled. Feminism is all about letting a woman know her place, I mean "identity," is in the kitchen with children? A measure of a woman is based on contents expelled from her uterus or how "feminine" she appears to be? You can't seriously believe that. The feminist movement, believe it or not, is about cracking such stereotypes and letting women choose for themselves whether they want to be housewives, or not... have children or not. Based on what you think the feminist movement is the feminist movement is anti-feminist, since it wants to give women the choice to be something other than housewives with kids, which you seem to assert defines a woman as being a woman. To say feminists are for women being identified in stereotypical roles is like saying pro-life is for abortion. It's not. Pro-life is against abortion. Feminism is against stereotypical gender-roles.
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:49 am
But feminism should also be about celebrating what makes us women instead of trying to make us be more like men. Men and Women can occupy the kitchen...whatever floats their boat. Only women can give birth. Men need to learn to deal with that. Lyme put it better on another thread. Lymelady the article in question "If women wanted to be hired like men, paid like men and promoted like men, Lader argued, then women shouldn't expect employers to deal with women's fertility issues. Why should the boss contend with maternity leave and benefits, or time off when a child is sick, in a school play or in sports? If women could control their fertility, then women could compete with men for employment. " That'd be like telling someone to change his skin color if he wanted to be treated as well as people with paler skin. We are women. It is not feminism to change our very nature and become men with boobs. We have so much to be proud of...our bodies are great, and we shouldn't have to be ashamed of it or hide it. We shouldn't have to be faced with either restraining from sex or killing our children to be treated the same as men. Anyone who says women weren't cut out for the workplace is wrong. The workplace isn't cut out for women. Men built the workplace up and when women came into it, it didn't change. It could have adapted, and it could have gotten better, but instead women had to become like men. The initial cost would be offset by the eventual gain...a society of successful, educated individuals who could compete in the workplace.
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:04 am
I think what he means is that motherhood is a strong symbol of feminsim. It's what early feminism was all about. There's a reason Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton were against abortion.
By saying we need to abort to be equal to men, we say we need to give up part of our femininity to be equal to men. Why can't we be equal to men without sacrificing who we are? Why is abortion treated like the only way out? It shouldn't be. We're compromising ourselves by saying, "In order to be like men, we'll give up our children." We shouldn't have to. Bearing children is one thing that makes women...well, women. You don't need to do it to be a woman, and bearing children doesn't make you more of a woman, but it shouldn't make you less of a person to other people. Women should be proud of their ability to have children, not ashamed. It's part of who we are. Yeah, it really sucks sometimes, I'd certainly rather not have a period every month. But we shouldn't have to kill our children to be equal to men. It just doesn't make sense.
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:15 am
Cyanna But feminism should also be about celebrating what makes us women instead of trying to make us be more like men. Men and Women can occupy the kitchen...whatever floats their boat. Only women can give birth. Men need to learn to deal with that. Lyme put it better on another thread. Lymelady the article in question "If women wanted to be hired like men, paid like men and promoted like men, Lader argued, then women shouldn't expect employers to deal with women's fertility issues. Why should the boss contend with maternity leave and benefits, or time off when a child is sick, in a school play or in sports? If women could control their fertility, then women could compete with men for employment. " That'd be like telling someone to change his skin color if he wanted to be treated as well as people with paler skin. We are women. It is not feminism to change our very nature and become men with boobs. We have so much to be proud of...our bodies are great, and we shouldn't have to be ashamed of it or hide it. We shouldn't have to be faced with either restraining from sex or killing our children to be treated the same as men. Anyone who says women weren't cut out for the workplace is wrong. The workplace isn't cut out for women. Men built the workplace up and when women came into it, it didn't change. It could have adapted, and it could have gotten better, but instead women had to become like men. The initial cost would be offset by the eventual gain...a society of successful, educated individuals who could compete in the workplace. I agree... feminism should be a celebration of womanhood. However based solely on what KP said (that feminism pushes only a celebration of that which makes us women) the feminist movement which permits women to be women without needing children or a position in the kitchen would be anti-feminist. The feminist movement may celebrate the fact we are women and that we are unique and special for being able to give birth and provide care to our families... however the feminist movement very much developed out of a sense that this is not the only thing women are able to do, and that women can do something completely different and still be celebrated as women.
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:43 am
Quote: however the feminist movement very much developed out of a sense that this is not the only thing women are able to do, and that women can do something completely different and still be celebrated as women. Of course it's not the only thing we are capable of and great strides have been taken to prove that. But it's one of the very few things that women are capable of that men are incapable of. And we shouldn't have to look at it as a roadblock to finding our value in society. Whether or not you agree, stay-at-home moms DO get a lot of flak for being full-time moms and not "working to their potential" in the competitive workforce. There is no possible way a woman could want that life for herself. Poor dear...too weak to stand up and fight her male oppressor. It shouldn't be that way. But this is the mentality that seeps into society and having abortion around does nothing to stop it. It only devalues the role of motherhood, our most natural occupation, even more by turning children into an object to be treasured or thrown away.
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:57 am
Cyanna Quote: however the feminist movement very much developed out of a sense that this is not the only thing women are able to do, and that women can do something completely different and still be celebrated as women. Of course it's not the only thing we are capable of and great strides have been taken to prove that. But it's one of the very few things that women are capable of that men are incapable of. And we shouldn't have to look at it as a roadblock to finding our value in society. Whether or not you agree, stay-at-home moms DO get a lot of flak for being full-time moms and not "working to their potential" in the competitive workforce. There is no possible way a woman could want that life for herself. Poor dear...too weak to stand up and fight her male oppressor. It shouldn't be that way. But this is the mentality that seeps into society and having abortion around does nothing to stop it. It only devalues the role of motherhood, our most natural occupation, even more by turning children into an object to be treasured or thrown away. Oh I agree. If someone chooses to be a housewfie she should not be criticized for that or made to feel that she has betrayed women everywhere (as they often are). But again... KP made it seem like anything that doesn't glorify women in a housewife role doing that which is only available to women (giving birth) then it is anti-feminist. Since the feminist movement is about treating women as women in any course of life she chooses that would make it anti-feminist for saying "one can be celebrated as a woman when she chooses not to do things associated with being 'feminine.'" Quote: It shouldn't be that way. But this is the mentality that seeps into society and having abortion around does nothing to stop it. It only devalues the role of motherhood, our most natural occupation, even more by turning children into an object to be treasured or thrown away The way you present this is much clearer than KP. It is one thing to say that abortion devalues motherhood and motherhood is something we should celebrate as women (as well as other things), and another thing entirely to say that anything that says we don't have to be mothers and fights gender stereotypes/roles (pro-choice) is anti-feminist for saying it (how KP came off sounding).
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:05 am
I think KP didn't mean to come off as saying it like that, but I only think this because I know him and I've talked to him a lot, he doesn't have a negative view of women working to become more than housewives if they want.
The way women who choose to be homemakers are treated is deplorable, and I know he objects to that because I rant about how much flack my mom has gotten for it. I think that's what he was trying to say. Not 100% sure since I'm not him, though.
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:20 am
Talon-chan It is one thing to say that abortion devalues motherhood and motherhood is something we should celebrate as women (as well as other things), and another thing entirely to say that anything that says we don't have to be mothers and fights gender stereotypes/roles (pro-choice) is anti-feminist for saying it (how KP came off sounding). Eh. I don't talk to kp that much. But he didn't come off that way to me. I pretty much agreed with what I read; Motherhood is the most powerful symbol of womankind, but members of the feminist movement frequently work to devalue it. Maybe not the movement itself, but when the majority of members of the movement act that way... My mom's gotten the same kind of trouble. She's a stay at home mom, but she is the most outspoken and independantly thinking woman I know. One of the most outspoken and independant people I know as well. But people treat her like she isn't living up to her potential because she dropped out of college to marry my dad, and be a stay at home mom.
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:31 pm
Quote: You can't seriously believe that. No I mean the strongest symbol of being feminine is the ability to bear children, exactly, the v****a indeed. I'm not taking some redneck position saying the woman's place is "In the kitchen, barefoot, makin' me dinner", what i'm saying is, women are "mothers". Of the two sexes they are more compassionate and gentle (being general here). If you want to uphold the image of being a woman, if you eliminate any pride or acknowledgement you can carry children, you're destroying your identity. I'm not saying you all NEED to have children, this is all metaphorical. Lymelady I think what he means is that motherhood is a strong symbol of feminsim. Yes, that's sums it up. 3nodding EDIT: Lymelady It only devalues the role of motherhood, our most natural occupation Once again, sometimes I wonder why I don't just ask you to write everything. sweatdrop
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:34 pm
Thats what i got out of it.
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:13 pm
kp606 EDIT: Lymelady It only devalues the role of motherhood, our most natural occupation Once again, sometimes I wonder why I don't just ask you to write everything. sweatdrop Because, as awesome as they are, it'd get kind of boring if Kate and Miranda were the only people to post things. razz
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Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:17 pm
I.Am kp606 EDIT: Lymelady It only devalues the role of motherhood, our most natural occupation Once again, sometimes I wonder why I don't just ask you to write everything. sweatdrop Because, as awesome as they are, it'd get kind of boring if Kate and Miranda were the only people to post things. razz *taps shoulder* You. Pro-life guild ED. Now!
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