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 Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:37 pm
@brainn: I don't really think common sense comes into play much when you've lost someone... I'm just saying people could be behaving a heckuva lot more unreasonable. That's all I was trying to show. [/shrugs] Time's a factor. Both religions have done worse, like the Crusades on Christianity's part. It's just out of the two of them, more harm is being done by Islam then Christianity right now (those Muslims in the Middle East far outnumber the Muslims here in America, you know). @Apple: I mean it's too close to Ground Zero. No, I don't think the Muslims mean any harm, but it does feel a little bit like they're rubbing it in, even if they aren't trying to. The thing is, they weren't targeting Muslims; they were targeting Americans. It was a strike against America, not Islam. Besides, I'd bet you 10,000 gold that the Christians killed there at least outnumber the Muslims ten to one. Yet another article about it, with a bias against Muslims: http://townhall.com/columnists/MichaelMedved/2010/08/17/the_president_distorts_arguments_on_ground_zero_mosque/page/full
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:59 pm
xxEverBluexx @brainn: I don't really think common sense comes into play much when you've lost someone... I'm just saying people could be behaving a heckuva lot more unreasonable. That's all I was trying to show. [/shrugs] Time's a factor. Both religions have done worse, like the Crusades on Christianity's part. It's just out of the two of them, more harm is being done by Islam then Christianity right now (those Muslims in the Middle East far outnumber the Muslims here in America, you know). @Apple: I mean it's too close to Ground Zero. No, I don't think the Muslims mean any harm, but it does feel a little bit like they're rubbing it in, even if they aren't trying to. The thing is, they weren't targeting Muslims; they were targeting Americans. It was a strike against America, not Islam. Besides, I'd bet you 10,000 gold that the Christians killed there at least outnumber the Muslims ten to one. Yet another article about it, with a bias against Muslims: http://townhall.com/columnists/MichaelMedved/2010/08/17/the_president_distorts_arguments_on_ground_zero_mosque/page/full ..... all semblance of credibility in your argument has now fled for the hills, dear. neutral 1.) you can't be claiming that one religion has done more in a given time line, that doesn't mean s**t. these comparisons are ******** up. 2.) just because they could be more unreasonable doesn't mean they arn't being unreasonable. 3.) don't even, don't EVEN compare the numbers of deaths of christians to muslims and claim that the ones who lost more followers suffered the most. it was loss on either end, that's all that ******** matters! not about tallying scores.
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:24 pm
xxEverBluexx @brainn: I don't really think common sense comes into play much when you've lost someone... I'm just saying people could be behaving a heckuva lot more unreasonable. That's all I was trying to show. [/shrugs] Time's a factor. Both religions have done worse, like the Crusades on Christianity's part. It's just out of the two of them, more harm is being done by Islam then Christianity right now (those Muslims in the Middle East far outnumber the Muslims here in America, you know). @Apple: I mean it's too close to Ground Zero. No, I don't think the Muslims mean any harm, but it does feel a little bit like they're rubbing it in, even if they aren't trying to. The thing is, they weren't targeting Muslims; they were targeting Americans. It was a strike against America, not Islam. Besides, I'd bet you 10,000 gold that the Christians killed there at least outnumber the Muslims ten to one. Yet another article about it, with a bias against Muslims: http://townhall.com/columnists/MichaelMedved/2010/08/17/the_president_distorts_arguments_on_ground_zero_mosque/page/full
Just because people could possibly be more insensitive and intolerant than they are now doesn't mean that their current actions are sensitive and tolerant. Yes, things could be worse. We could gather up every non-Christian and burn them as a witch. The fact that we don't doesn't mean that we no longer have anything to work on when it comes to religious tolerance.
And things were worse. When the attack happened, it was dangerous to even seem Muslim in some parts of this country. Land of the free indeed.
If people can't understand the difference by now, it is their own problem. Coddling people who can't accept progress is unreasonable, in any context. It would be like me refusing to vote out of courtesy for anyone who might still think that a woman's place is in the kitchen. Or paying taxes to the mother country so as not to offend any British people who are still sore over America gaining our independence.
NYC Muslims should be allowed to worship wherever they want. Especially in a country that promises religious freedom. They're not monsters. They're not terrorists. They're people. And anyone who can't see that by now is beyond help.
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:45 pm
for a little bit of a sob-story, i have this.
my stepdad. full-blooded Indian, 1st-generation Immigrant, his school visa expired almost 2 decades before 9/11 happened.
he lost his driver's liscence for a year, his job for two years, and was afraid to leave the house because of his race.
to this day, he tends to be wary of going anywhere. he won't check into hotels, or go to certain towns (because we live in th South), all because he's worried about being accused of terrorism.
this is what my family goes thorugh. ******** interracial marriage issues still hit us hard, and throwing on stereotypes about religions and races don't make it any ******** easier to live peacefully, nor does fear-based bigotry and segregation.
and that's what this is, arguing against the Mosque. it's segregation, which is unconstitutional! i could bring up Amendments 1, 13, 14, 15, AND 16 right now, just to show you what i mean, and why there shouldn't even be an argument about this! it doesn't matter WHERE in the U.S. you are, ground-zero or not. EVERYONE has Equal Unalienable Rights!
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:49 pm
Chieftain Twilight xxEverBluexx @brainn: I don't really think common sense comes into play much when you've lost someone... I'm just saying people could be behaving a heckuva lot more unreasonable. That's all I was trying to show. [/shrugs] Time's a factor. Both religions have done worse, like the Crusades on Christianity's part. It's just out of the two of them, more harm is being done by Islam then Christianity right now (those Muslims in the Middle East far outnumber the Muslims here in America, you know). @Apple: I mean it's too close to Ground Zero. No, I don't think the Muslims mean any harm, but it does feel a little bit like they're rubbing it in, even if they aren't trying to. The thing is, they weren't targeting Muslims; they were targeting Americans. It was a strike against America, not Islam. Besides, I'd bet you 10,000 gold that the Christians killed there at least outnumber the Muslims ten to one. Yet another article about it, with a bias against Muslims: http://townhall.com/columnists/MichaelMedved/2010/08/17/the_president_distorts_arguments_on_ground_zero_mosque/page/full ..... all semblance of credibility in your argument has now fled for the hills, dear. neutral 1.) you can't be claiming that one religion has done more in a given time line, that doesn't mean s**t. these comparisons are ******** up. 2.) just because they could be more unreasonable doesn't mean they arn't being unreasonable. 3.) don't even, don't EVEN compare the numbers of deaths of christians to muslims and claim that the ones who lost more followers suffered the most. it was loss on either end, that's all that ******** matters! not about tallying scores. ...You're really mad at me for making a few comparisons? O_o Okay, then... 3.) No, it's not about tallying scores, but honestly if more Christians died, that's more lives hurt. The only way you can count it all is if they're faceless numbers, because it'd take more then a lifetime just to understand the negative impact of that one event. And honestly, in some ways it's worse to listen to a sob story and go boo-hoo when you have no notion of what's it's like to be that person. At least with the numbers, you know it's heartless. Edit: I just reread what I said. I didn't mean it as heartless as it sounds (this is one of those things where I blame my Asperger's...), like those people aren't worth anything. I was just frustrated. Even if Muslims lost family/friends there, they didn't attack us to hurt them. They attacked to hurt Americans, and I'm guessing hurting Christians was a bonus to them too. It's not the Muslims in our nation they hate. It's everyone else.
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:04 am
Does a Muslim mother hurt less at the loss of a son than a Christian one?
Doesn't her world end too?
Why should any category matter other than "civilian", "victim", or "person"?
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:21 am
Blue, I think the best way to make you understand is:
Imagine that your town decided to ban Christianity. People have been persecuted and harassed by Christians in the past, so they decided that it was probably best for everyone to close the church so that the Christians couldn't meet and plan against them.
They say you're still free to practice your religion in your own home. They don't support it... And you can't bring it outside the house because it offends people.
You know that your religion teaches peace. And anybody expressing it violently doesn't represent your religion. But it doesn't matter, because in the eyes of everyone else, you're all the same.
Would you be able to understand and comply?
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:46 am
brainnsoup Blue, I think the best way to make you understand is:
Imagine that your town decided to ban Christianity. People have been persecuted and harassed by Christians in the past, so they decided that it was probably best for everyone to close the church so that the Christians couldn't meet and plan against them.
They say you're still free to practice your religion in your own home. They don't support it... And you can't bring it outside the house because it offends people.
You know that your religion teaches peace. And anybody expressing it violently doesn't represent your religion. But it doesn't matter, because in the eyes of everyone else, you're all the same.
Would you be able to understand and comply? *shrugs* They have it worse then that in the Middle East, in terms of Christians are hunted down and killed there. Besides, I think that your scenario is exaggerating a little (or actually, a lot), but if it was so, I'd probably meet in private with the other Christians. That's how it's done when the church is persecuted. I wouldn't stop acting Christian in public and if Christians went to jail, great. Considering being a martyr is considered an honor, suffering for your religion (when it comes to Christians) is a good thing.
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:04 pm
xxEverBluexx Chieftain Twilight xxEverBluexx @brainn: I don't really think common sense comes into play much when you've lost someone... I'm just saying people could be behaving a heckuva lot more unreasonable. That's all I was trying to show. [/shrugs] Time's a factor. Both religions have done worse, like the Crusades on Christianity's part. It's just out of the two of them, more harm is being done by Islam then Christianity right now (those Muslims in the Middle East far outnumber the Muslims here in America, you know). @Apple: I mean it's too close to Ground Zero. No, I don't think the Muslims mean any harm, but it does feel a little bit like they're rubbing it in, even if they aren't trying to. The thing is, they weren't targeting Muslims; they were targeting Americans. It was a strike against America, not Islam. Besides, I'd bet you 10,000 gold that the Christians killed there at least outnumber the Muslims ten to one. Yet another article about it, with a bias against Muslims: http://townhall.com/columnists/MichaelMedved/2010/08/17/the_president_distorts_arguments_on_ground_zero_mosque/page/full ..... all semblance of credibility in your argument has now fled for the hills, dear. neutral 1.) you can't be claiming that one religion has done more in a given time line, that doesn't mean s**t. these comparisons are ******** up. 2.) just because they could be more unreasonable doesn't mean they arn't being unreasonable. 3.) don't even, don't EVEN compare the numbers of deaths of christians to muslims and claim that the ones who lost more followers suffered the most. it was loss on either end, that's all that ******** matters! not about tallying scores. ...You're really mad at me for making a few comparisons? O_o Okay, then... 3.) No, it's not about tallying scores, but honestly if more Christians died, that's more lives hurt. The only way you can count it all is if they're faceless numbers, because it'd take more then a lifetime just to understand the negative impact of that one event. And honestly, in some ways it's worse to listen to a sob story and go boo-hoo when you have no notion of what's it's like to be that person. At least with the numbers, you know it's heartless. Edit: I just reread what I said. I didn't mean it as heartless as it sounds (this is one of those things where I blame my Asperger's...), like those people aren't worth anything. I was just frustrated. Even if Muslims lost family/friends there, they didn't attack us to hurt them. They attacked to hurt Americans, and I'm guessing hurting Christians was a bonus to them too. It's not the Muslims in our nation they hate. It's everyone else. i wouldn't say i'm angry at you, but i don't like it. i'm making a point. that you simply can't just make these comparisons. look, it doesn't matter if the hijackers aimed to kill muslims or not, muslims got killed too. and regardless, it was targeted at americans, and americans died. alot of them did. muslim or christian, they were ALL american, they ARE all american! that's why it doesn't matter if they were muslim or christian, we SHOULDN"T divide them along lines of religion, we should divide them along lines of Nationality.
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:06 pm
xxEverBluexx brainnsoup Blue, I think the best way to make you understand is:
Imagine that your town decided to ban Christianity. People have been persecuted and harassed by Christians in the past, so they decided that it was probably best for everyone to close the church so that the Christians couldn't meet and plan against them.
They say you're still free to practice your religion in your own home. They don't support it... And you can't bring it outside the house because it offends people.
You know that your religion teaches peace. And anybody expressing it violently doesn't represent your religion. But it doesn't matter, because in the eyes of everyone else, you're all the same.
Would you be able to understand and comply? *shrugs* They have it worse then that in the Middle East, in terms of Christians are hunted down and killed there. Besides, I think that your scenario is exaggerating a little (or actually, a lot), but if it was so, I'd probably meet in private with the other Christians. That's how it's done when the church is persecuted. I wouldn't stop acting Christian in public and if Christians went to jail, great. Considering being a martyr is considered an honor, suffering for your religion (when it comes to Christians) is a good thing. and muslims believe in following the law. regardless, the pont is that just because being persecuted for your religion is Honoured, doesn't make it a good thing. why should they have to suffer for their religion? that argument isn't good for defending american's fear or for blocking a Civil Right.
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:13 pm
Chieftain Twilight xxEverBluexx Chieftain Twilight xxEverBluexx @brainn: I don't really think common sense comes into play much when you've lost someone... I'm just saying people could be behaving a heckuva lot more unreasonable. That's all I was trying to show. [/shrugs] Time's a factor. Both religions have done worse, like the Crusades on Christianity's part. It's just out of the two of them, more harm is being done by Islam then Christianity right now (those Muslims in the Middle East far outnumber the Muslims here in America, you know). @Apple: I mean it's too close to Ground Zero. No, I don't think the Muslims mean any harm, but it does feel a little bit like they're rubbing it in, even if they aren't trying to. The thing is, they weren't targeting Muslims; they were targeting Americans. It was a strike against America, not Islam. Besides, I'd bet you 10,000 gold that the Christians killed there at least outnumber the Muslims ten to one. Yet another article about it, with a bias against Muslims: http://townhall.com/columnists/MichaelMedved/2010/08/17/the_president_distorts_arguments_on_ground_zero_mosque/page/full ..... all semblance of credibility in your argument has now fled for the hills, dear. neutral 1.) you can't be claiming that one religion has done more in a given time line, that doesn't mean s**t. these comparisons are ******** up. 2.) just because they could be more unreasonable doesn't mean they arn't being unreasonable. 3.) don't even, don't EVEN compare the numbers of deaths of christians to muslims and claim that the ones who lost more followers suffered the most. it was loss on either end, that's all that ******** matters! not about tallying scores. ...You're really mad at me for making a few comparisons? O_o Okay, then... 3.) No, it's not about tallying scores, but honestly if more Christians died, that's more lives hurt. The only way you can count it all is if they're faceless numbers, because it'd take more then a lifetime just to understand the negative impact of that one event. And honestly, in some ways it's worse to listen to a sob story and go boo-hoo when you have no notion of what's it's like to be that person. At least with the numbers, you know it's heartless. Edit: I just reread what I said. I didn't mean it as heartless as it sounds (this is one of those things where I blame my Asperger's...), like those people aren't worth anything. I was just frustrated. Even if Muslims lost family/friends there, they didn't attack us to hurt them. They attacked to hurt Americans, and I'm guessing hurting Christians was a bonus to them too. It's not the Muslims in our nation they hate. It's everyone else. i wouldn't say i'm angry at you, but i don't like it. i'm making a point. that you simply can't just make these comparisons. look, it doesn't matter if the hijackers aimed to kill muslims or not, muslims got killed too. and regardless, it was targeted at americans, and americans died. alot of them did. muslim or christian, they were ALL american, they ARE all american! that's why it doesn't matter if they were muslim or christian, we SHOULDN"T divide them along lines of religion, we should divide them along lines of Nationality. In some ways you're right, but religion's a factor. That's why it matters who they were trying to kill. I'm probably seeing it like this because for me, being an American comes second to being to being a Christian. They might have been going against America, but it feels like they were trying to kill Christians.
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:18 pm
Chieftain Twilight xxEverBluexx brainnsoup Blue, I think the best way to make you understand is:
Imagine that your town decided to ban Christianity. People have been persecuted and harassed by Christians in the past, so they decided that it was probably best for everyone to close the church so that the Christians couldn't meet and plan against them.
They say you're still free to practice your religion in your own home. They don't support it... And you can't bring it outside the house because it offends people.
You know that your religion teaches peace. And anybody expressing it violently doesn't represent your religion. But it doesn't matter, because in the eyes of everyone else, you're all the same.
Would you be able to understand and comply? *shrugs* They have it worse then that in the Middle East, in terms of Christians are hunted down and killed there. Besides, I think that your scenario is exaggerating a little (or actually, a lot), but if it was so, I'd probably meet in private with the other Christians. That's how it's done when the church is persecuted. I wouldn't stop acting Christian in public and if Christians went to jail, great. Considering being a martyr is considered an honor, suffering for your religion (when it comes to Christians) is a good thing. and muslims believe in following the law. regardless, the pont is that just because being persecuted for your religion is Honoured, doesn't make it a good thing. why should they have to suffer for their religion? that argument isn't good for defending american's fear or for blocking a Civil Right. She gave me a scenario, I said what I'd do. It's not exactly an argument on my part.
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:20 pm
xxEverBluexx Chieftain Twilight xxEverBluexx Chieftain Twilight xxEverBluexx @brainn: I don't really think common sense comes into play much when you've lost someone... I'm just saying people could be behaving a heckuva lot more unreasonable. That's all I was trying to show. [/shrugs] Time's a factor. Both religions have done worse, like the Crusades on Christianity's part. It's just out of the two of them, more harm is being done by Islam then Christianity right now (those Muslims in the Middle East far outnumber the Muslims here in America, you know). @Apple: I mean it's too close to Ground Zero. No, I don't think the Muslims mean any harm, but it does feel a little bit like they're rubbing it in, even if they aren't trying to. The thing is, they weren't targeting Muslims; they were targeting Americans. It was a strike against America, not Islam. Besides, I'd bet you 10,000 gold that the Christians killed there at least outnumber the Muslims ten to one. Yet another article about it, with a bias against Muslims: http://townhall.com/columnists/MichaelMedved/2010/08/17/the_president_distorts_arguments_on_ground_zero_mosque/page/full ..... all semblance of credibility in your argument has now fled for the hills, dear. neutral 1.) you can't be claiming that one religion has done more in a given time line, that doesn't mean s**t. these comparisons are ******** up. 2.) just because they could be more unreasonable doesn't mean they arn't being unreasonable. 3.) don't even, don't EVEN compare the numbers of deaths of christians to muslims and claim that the ones who lost more followers suffered the most. it was loss on either end, that's all that ******** matters! not about tallying scores. ...You're really mad at me for making a few comparisons? O_o Okay, then... 3.) No, it's not about tallying scores, but honestly if more Christians died, that's more lives hurt. The only way you can count it all is if they're faceless numbers, because it'd take more then a lifetime just to understand the negative impact of that one event. And honestly, in some ways it's worse to listen to a sob story and go boo-hoo when you have no notion of what's it's like to be that person. At least with the numbers, you know it's heartless. Edit: I just reread what I said. I didn't mean it as heartless as it sounds (this is one of those things where I blame my Asperger's...), like those people aren't worth anything. I was just frustrated. Even if Muslims lost family/friends there, they didn't attack us to hurt them. They attacked to hurt Americans, and I'm guessing hurting Christians was a bonus to them too. It's not the Muslims in our nation they hate. It's everyone else. i wouldn't say i'm angry at you, but i don't like it. i'm making a point. that you simply can't just make these comparisons. look, it doesn't matter if the hijackers aimed to kill muslims or not, muslims got killed too. and regardless, it was targeted at americans, and americans died. alot of them did. muslim or christian, they were ALL american, they ARE all american! that's why it doesn't matter if they were muslim or christian, we SHOULDN"T divide them along lines of religion, we should divide them along lines of Nationality. In some ways you're right, but religion's a factor. That's why it matters who they were trying to kill. I'm probably seeing it like this because for me, being an American comes second to being to being a Christian. They might have been going against America, but it feels like they were trying to kill Christians. but regardless, when it comes to things like deaths, we shouldn't sepperate people based on religion. i don't care whether you put your religion before your nationality, it doesn't change the fact that those Muslims were Americans too, and that you can't deny people their rights. i'll be honest, things like this are make-or-break moments for me. if you continue to insist that christians lost more than muslim based on numbers of dead christians compared to the number of dead muslims, i'll honestly feel that i can't associate with you on friendly terms.
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:30 pm
xxEverBluexx Chieftain Twilight xxEverBluexx brainnsoup Blue, I think the best way to make you understand is:
Imagine that your town decided to ban Christianity. People have been persecuted and harassed by Christians in the past, so they decided that it was probably best for everyone to close the church so that the Christians couldn't meet and plan against them.
They say you're still free to practice your religion in your own home. They don't support it... And you can't bring it outside the house because it offends people.
You know that your religion teaches peace. And anybody expressing it violently doesn't represent your religion. But it doesn't matter, because in the eyes of everyone else, you're all the same.
Would you be able to understand and comply? *shrugs* They have it worse then that in the Middle East, in terms of Christians are hunted down and killed there. Besides, I think that your scenario is exaggerating a little (or actually, a lot), but if it was so, I'd probably meet in private with the other Christians. That's how it's done when the church is persecuted. I wouldn't stop acting Christian in public and if Christians went to jail, great. Considering being a martyr is considered an honor, suffering for your religion (when it comes to Christians) is a good thing. and muslims believe in following the law. regardless, the pont is that just because being persecuted for your religion is Honoured, doesn't make it a good thing. why should they have to suffer for their religion? that argument isn't good for defending american's fear or for blocking a Civil Right. She gave me a scenario, I said what I'd do. It's not exactly an argument on my part. fair enough.
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:51 pm
xxEverBluexx brainnsoup Blue, I think the best way to make you understand is:
Imagine that your town decided to ban Christianity. People have been persecuted and harassed by Christians in the past, so they decided that it was probably best for everyone to close the church so that the Christians couldn't meet and plan against them.
They say you're still free to practice your religion in your own home. They don't support it... And you can't bring it outside the house because it offends people.
You know that your religion teaches peace. And anybody expressing it violently doesn't represent your religion. But it doesn't matter, because in the eyes of everyone else, you're all the same.
Would you be able to understand and comply? *shrugs* They have it worse then that in the Middle East, in terms of Christians are hunted down and killed there. Besides, I think that your scenario is exaggerating a little (or actually, a lot), but if it was so, I'd probably meet in private with the other Christians. That's how it's done when the church is persecuted. I wouldn't stop acting Christian in public and if Christians went to jail, great. Considering being a martyr is considered an honor, suffering for your religion (when it comes to Christians) is a good thing.
Don't they know that their religion is all about murder? What's that, it teaches against murder? Well, it's probably in there somewhere...
And I think you're missing my point. You shouldn't have to hide your religion. No matter what misguided people have done in the name of your religion, it doesn't justify denying you the right to practice your religion.
You can't set one standard for Christianity and a different for Islam just because you're a Christian or because Islam makes you uncomfortable.
And it doesn't matter what happens in other countries. We're America. You're using those parts of the Middle East as examples of how horrible it is in other parts of the world, and yet you want to hold us to those standards? How can we claim to be a free country when we don't give people freedom?
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Reply
