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Chieftain Twilight

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:01 am


Basilia Ann E
Renkon Root
Basilia Ann E

Girls are often view, and view themselves, as more spiritual than men. To illustrate this they have scented candles and foam yoga mats.
This pickled vegetable...

Wait, how do scented candles and yoga mats equate to having a high spirituality?

... could kick your a** !!


*Correction; "Girls are often viewed.."

It doesn't, if you read the whole sentence, "Girl are often viewed, and view themselves, as more spiritual than man". This does not say "Girls are more spiritual than men

This view of spirituality is displayed with candles and yoga (both of which are extremely popular amongst girls)



equally popular among men.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:06 am


Basilia Ann E
Quote:
You'll notice many people will define spiritual moments as moments of supreme cognition of that very fact. 'I am a part of God's plan' or 'I feel connected to Buddha's nature in the performance of ritual.' That's not to say I think spirituality is exclusively the recognition of inter-connectedness, just that it's a larger part of it than many would consciously think of when thinking of spirituality. Overall, I still think it is more accurate to include spirituality being an expression of self as long as you assume that part of the self is connected to the rest of existence and not apart from it.



You just demonstrated the definition of religion. It's also clear that all religions are not the same. Religions are an expression of spirituality, including lack of spirituality (atheism).

To, "'I am a part of God's plan" and "I feel connected to Buddha's nature in the performance of ritual."

You can add;


  • Sports as a religion (ritualized watching of sports and adoration of sports idols)
  • Science as a religion, where the word "Science" is substituted for the word "God"
  • Anything done "religiously"




... well, here i can say that your definition of Spirituality was only relious. and in fact, incorrect.

Spirituality is NOT a consequence of religion. religion is a consequence of Spirituality.

Spirituality is the connectedness of self-awareness to awareness of the Spirit, and things of a Faith-based lifestyle, or of a personal relationship to the Spiritual.

which seems to be what Helica is actually referring to. that many people FORGET that Spirituality is connectedness, and that the various religions have TEACHINGS of connectedness and Spirituality, but not so many practitioners of these religions actual pay enough attention to the Spiritual aspects of their religions.

i will further illustrate.

i am not religious, i do not belong to any rligion. i have borrowed many teachings from many religions, but i do not adhere to any religion, or agree even considerably with any religion. however, i believe in the Creator, and in Gods and Goddesses, and in Spirits. i believe in the Soul, and in the Otherworld/Spiritual Dimension/Astral Plane, and in Nirvana/Heaven.

by your definition, because i am not religious, i cannot be Spiritual, no matter my practices or beliefs. or, you are saying that my lifestyle, however ecclectic and unique, is a religion. but that goes against the definition of religion found in a dictionary. i have no congregations, no orthodoxy, no tenets or dogma.... i just have a Philosophy. one that states that i cannot settle on any belief, because to settle on a belief is to give up the persuit of Truth. and hat by it's very nature is non-religious, because religions have set beliefs.

i am only being harsh and pushy because that is what debate is good for. ^_^ when one's ideas are chalenged, the speaker must now reasses, and find ways to either support or reform their belief or sttement. it helps both parties to learn from eachother. smile

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 9:24 am


Basilia Ann E
lucid_mirror
Lateralus es Helica
Basilia Ann E
Quote:
You'll notice many people will define spiritual moments as moments of supreme cognition of that very fact. 'I am a part of God's plan' or 'I feel connected to Buddha's nature in the performance of ritual.' That's not to say I think spirituality is exclusively the recognition of inter-connectedness, just that it's a larger part of it than many would consciously think of when thinking of spirituality. Overall, I still think it is more accurate to include spirituality being an expression of self as long as you assume that part of the self is connected to the rest of existence and not apart from it.



You just demonstrated the definition of religion. It's also clear that all religions are not the same. Religions are an expression of spirituality, including lack of spirituality (atheism).

To, "'I am a part of God's plan" and "I feel connected to Buddha's nature in the performance of ritual."

You can add;


  • Sports as a religion (ritualized watching of sports and adoration of sports idols)
  • Science as a religion, where the word "Science" is substituted for the word "God"
  • Anything done "religiously"




The two specific examples were examples of the religious side of spiritual expression, especially considering we are in a religion guild after all, but that still doesn't mean that the definition includes solely religion. Indeed atheists have reported that seem feeling of connection when taking walks in nature.

You'll also have to give your own definition of religion because honestly, like Lucid, I think you're way off track with what religion actually is. I think more of what you're talking about goes into Robert Pirsig's world of quality in which one care's about what they're doing. Such moments of connection to a sports game or connection to a test performed within science can have a certain amount of Zen, that same inter-connectedness I speak of, but that does not necessarily make them religious moments. When you're displaying that level of connection, it's a unification of self and the work being done or the game, it's a spiritual moment, not a religious moment.
Clarify why you have the belief that my understanding of religion is not factual in your eyes.


My view on Religion.
All Religions contain the following
1. Moral and Ethical practices.
2. Ritual or Religious practices.
3. A direction of worship whether it be a deity, themselves or others.
4. Answers to the big questions (death, origin etc)



Where the confusion comes in is that religion is often confused with theology. Your (both of you and commonly) view religion as theology, but it's not. Religion (the practice and in Greek called the Typikon - Τυπικον) is not the same as theology.

Religion covers;
1. Moral and Ethical practices.
2. Ritual or Religious practices.
While, theology covers
3. A direction of worship whether it be a deity, deities, themselves or anything else (ie cults).
4. Answers to the big questions (death, origin etc)

Atheism (diametrically opposed to theism) would stack up as follows;

Theology 1st;
1. There is no god or gods
2. belief in nothing, or belief in the self
3. The university is chaos and coincidence

The Religion of Atheism;
1. Communism or Environmentalism - where the state of the environment determines direction, ethics and morals
2. Nazisim or Eugenics - where genetics determine direction, ethics and morals
3. Anarchism & Nihilism; the practice of total chaos and destruction.

Branching from atheism are the agnostics, who aren't sure - and have left their beliefs undefined. (I'm doing a word search on agnostic into the Greek evolution of the word.) I'll post the result when I have it and references.





nazis based their racial superiority on religion, not on any actual science. to call it atheism is rediculous. the so-called "science" of humanology was based entirely on the personal prejiduce that the "researcher" had. every data-point he used as evidence was pure speculation on his part.

and in no way is Communism or Environmentalism a universally accepted thing among atheists. o_O; the majority of atheists i know are iffy about my choice to be a Socialist. they are afraid of Communism/Socialism.

and most importantly, no. the main confusion is not between Theology and religion. that happens, yes, but it is nowhere NEAR as serious and common as the confusion between religion and Spirituality, a confusion that you clearly have in abundance.

i realy think you should do alot more studying of History, Theology, Philosophy, Politics and Science, dear. confused you seem awfully uneducated, and biased. i'm under the impression that you are repeating things that you were taught by your local pastor.... who most likely doesn't even read his own Bible.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:13 am


Hm... I'm pretty spiritual. XD

All that reading is making my eyes hurt XP

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:40 pm


Chieftain Twilight
Basilia Ann E
Quote:
You'll notice many people will define spiritual moments as moments of supreme cognition of that very fact. 'I am a part of God's plan' or 'I feel connected to Buddha's nature in the performance of ritual.' That's not to say I think spirituality is exclusively the recognition of inter-connectedness, just that it's a larger part of it than many would consciously think of when thinking of spirituality. Overall, I still think it is more accurate to include spirituality being an expression of self as long as you assume that part of the self is connected to the rest of existence and not apart from it.



You just demonstrated the definition of religion. It's also clear that all religions are not the same. Religions are an expression of spirituality, including lack of spirituality (atheism).

To, "'I am a part of God's plan" and "I feel connected to Buddha's nature in the performance of ritual."

You can add;


  • Sports as a religion (ritualized watching of sports and adoration of sports idols)
  • Science as a religion, where the word "Science" is substituted for the word "God"
  • Anything done "religiously"




... well, here i can say that your definition of Spirituality was only relious. and in fact, incorrect.

Spirituality is NOT a consequence of religion. religion is a consequence of Spirituality.

Spirituality is the connectedness of self-awareness to awareness of the Spirit, and things of a Faith-based lifestyle, or of a personal relationship to the Spiritual.

which seems to be what Helica is actually referring to. that many people FORGET that Spirituality is connectedness, and that the various religions have TEACHINGS of connectedness and Spirituality, but not so many practitioners of these religions actual pay enough attention to the Spiritual aspects of their religions.

i will further illustrate.

i am not religious, i do not belong to any rligion. i have borrowed many teachings from many religions, but i do not adhere to any religion, or agree even considerably with any religion. however, i believe in the Creator, and in Gods and Goddesses, and in Spirits. i believe in the Soul, and in the Otherworld/Spiritual Dimension/Astral Plane, and in Nirvana/Heaven.

by your definition, because i am not religious, i cannot be Spiritual, no matter my practices or beliefs. or, you are saying that my lifestyle, however ecclectic and unique, is a religion. but that goes against the definition of religion found in a dictionary. i have no congregations, no orthodoxy, no tenets or dogma.... i just have a Philosophy. one that states that i cannot settle on any belief, because to settle on a belief is to give up the persuit of Truth. and hat by it's very nature is non-religious, because religions have set beliefs.

i am only being harsh and pushy because that is what debate is good for. ^_^ when one's ideas are chalenged, the speaker must now reasses, and find ways to either support or reform their belief or sttement. it helps both parties to learn from eachother. smile


I don't mind discussion and/or debate - as such I not offended by what other say - even if I strongly disagrees with it.

Once again you have misunderstood what I said. I did not say that spirituality is a consequence of religion. I said that religion is an expression of spirituality - no matter what the spirituality is.

I went further to classify spirituality and its expression - religion. Under which you would be classified as, Agnostic (being spiritual under your own definition and practice)


These views are well supported by research materials in theological, psychological and anthropological research libraries. The problem is the references are too lengthy to post here.

PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:04 pm


Chieftain Twilight
Basilia Ann E
lucid_mirror
Lateralus es Helica
Basilia Ann E



You just demonstrated the definition of religion. It's also clear that all religions are not the same. Religions are an expression of spirituality, including lack of spirituality (atheism).

To, "'I am a part of God's plan" and "I feel connected to Buddha's nature in the performance of ritual."

You can add;


  • Sports as a religion (ritualized watching of sports and adoration of sports idols)
  • Science as a religion, where the word "Science" is substituted for the word "God"
  • Anything done "religiously"




The two specific examples were examples of the religious side of spiritual expression, especially considering we are in a religion guild after all, but that still doesn't mean that the definition includes solely religion. Indeed atheists have reported that seem feeling of connection when taking walks in nature.

You'll also have to give your own definition of religion because honestly, like Lucid, I think you're way off track with what religion actually is. I think more of what you're talking about goes into Robert Pirsig's world of quality in which one care's about what they're doing. Such moments of connection to a sports game or connection to a test performed within science can have a certain amount of Zen, that same inter-connectedness I speak of, but that does not necessarily make them religious moments. When you're displaying that level of connection, it's a unification of self and the work being done or the game, it's a spiritual moment, not a religious moment.
Clarify why you have the belief that my understanding of religion is not factual in your eyes.


My view on Religion.
All Religions contain the following
1. Moral and Ethical practices.
2. Ritual or Religious practices.
3. A direction of worship whether it be a deity, themselves or others.
4. Answers to the big questions (death, origin etc)



Where the confusion comes in is that religion is often confused with theology. Your (both of you and commonly) view religion as theology, but it's not. Religion (the practice and in Greek called the Typikon - Τυπικον) is not the same as theology.

Religion covers;
1. Moral and Ethical practices.
2. Ritual or Religious practices.
While, theology covers
3. A direction of worship whether it be a deity, deities, themselves or anything else (ie cults).
4. Answers to the big questions (death, origin etc)

Atheism (diametrically opposed to theism) would stack up as follows;

Theology 1st;
1. There is no god or gods
2. belief in nothing, or belief in the self
3. The university is chaos and coincidence

The Religion of Atheism;
1. Communism or Environmentalism - where the state of the environment determines direction, ethics and morals
2. Nazisim or Eugenics - where genetics determine direction, ethics and morals
3. Anarchism & Nihilism; the practice of total chaos and destruction.

Branching from atheism are the agnostics, who aren't sure - and have left their beliefs undefined. (I'm doing a word search on agnostic into the Greek evolution of the word.) I'll post the result when I have it and references.





nazis based their racial superiority on religion, not on any actual science. to call it atheism is rediculous. the so-called "science" of humanology was based entirely on the personal prejiduce that the "researcher" had. every data-point he used as evidence was pure speculation on his part.

and in no way is Communism or Environmentalism a universally accepted thing among atheists. o_O; the majority of atheists i know are iffy about my choice to be a Socialist. they are afraid of Communism/Socialism.

and most importantly, no. the main confusion is not between Theology and religion. that happens, yes, but it is nowhere NEAR as serious and common as the confusion between religion and Spirituality, a confusion that you clearly have in abundance.

i realy think you should do alot more studying of History, Theology, Philosophy, Politics and Science, dear. confused you seem awfully uneducated, and biased. i'm under the impression that you are repeating things that you were taught by your local pastor.... who most likely doesn't even read his own Bible.





Quote:
These views are well supported by research materials in theological, psychological and anthropological research libraries. The problem is the references are too lengthy to post here.



I'm under the impression that you have not understood anything I've written - since I've had to correct you several times as to what I actually said. I do study science I'm an astrophysics major in a university in which you spend a majority of your time in research libraries. I have access to documents (real historical archives) that self-taught guru's don't have access to. My views are based on the rare, and often hidden, documents. This is not to say that they aren't publicly available. You just have to spend a significant amount of your time in a library.

For example, if you study semantics, you would find that my definition of term fall within proper semantic guidelines - this is why I did not further define agnostic I'm sourcing it's etymology from the original Greek. The definitions of religion and spirituality - also have the same attention paid to it.

In reference to the "local pastor" statement - once again a complete misunderstanding. To most local pastors god is white and European. They are in complete ignorance of the first 1000 years of Christianity, which was not European and Christ was not white. Byzantine ikonography from the 800 AD and prior, depicts Christ as dark skinned. Further, archeology and documents show an African-Asian start (centered in the Middle East); with apostolic (founded by the apostles) churches in Ethiopia and India.

Both Harvard University and Oxford have extensive libraries filled with documents (and artifacts) from this period. These documents, in many aspects, fundamental contradict the views of the "local pastor". If you are insistent can post brief (shocking) exerts of the texts - here.

[I'm splitting to posts up to reduce the amount of reading that has to be done in one shot. Along with using this large size font.]


Basilia Ann E

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:12 pm


Quote:
nazis based their racial superiority on religion, not on any actual science. to call it atheism is rediculous.



I'll answer this with a reference;

Search, Eugenics
Do a related search on genetics, genetics and eugenics, and The beliefs/views of Watson and Crick

Then, The NAZIS and Eugenics

PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:15 pm


Aakosir
Hm... I'm pretty spiritual. XD

All that reading is making my eyes hurt XP



Sorry - I'm somewhat of an uncontrollable geek. I spend much of my time in my library and reading.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:42 pm


Basilia Ann E
Aakosir
Hm... I'm pretty spiritual. XD

All that reading is making my eyes hurt XP



Sorry - I'm somewhat of an uncontrollable geek. I spend much of my time in my library and reading.



And people obviously like to write a lot. I do too though XP
PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:29 pm


Aakosir
Basilia Ann E
Aakosir
Hm... I'm pretty spiritual. XD

All that reading is making my eyes hurt XP



Sorry - I'm somewhat of an uncontrollable geek. I spend much of my time in my library and reading.



And people obviously like to write a lot. I do too though XP



heart heart idea heart heart


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:04 am


Basilia Ann E

I have access to documents (real historical archives) that self-taught guru's don't have access to. My views are based on the rare, and often hidden, documents.


I'm just curious what in the world those are. The argument here is that your classifying any spiritual or ritual expression as a religion, even going so far as to include being a fan of sports. I'm trying to figure out what documents might possibly say that religion, atheism, and agnosticism are anything other than what they actually are.

We'll start with religion since it's the biggest one.

Quote:
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6.
something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.

7.
religions, Archaic . religious rites.
8.
Archaic . strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.
—Idiom
9.
get religion, Informal .
a.
to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of religious beliefs and practices.
b.
to resolve to mend one's errant ways: The company got religion and stopped making dangerous products.


Atheism
Quote:
1.
the doctrine or belief that there is no god.
2.
disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.


Agnosticism
Quote:
1.
The doctrine that certainty about first principles or absolute truth is unattainable and that only perceptual phenomena are objects of exact knowledge.
2.
The belief that there can be no proof either that God exists or that God does not exist.


Notice as I pointed out before all agnosticism and atheism does is make claims regarding the existence of God/Gods. They don't have moral codes. They don't answer questions concerning creation of the universe. They don't have ritual observances. They aren't religion.

Now once again we come to all spiritual expression being religion. You'll have to remember to start with that my definition of spirituality in and of itself was conjecture but at the very least I defined my terms of it. Going off of that and not necessarily any formal definition spiritual expression or expression of the self doesn't necessarily have to be religious expression. Indeed, religion is all about conforming the self to a specific set of guidelines. So unless that expression happens to fit into the specific guidelines outlined by whatever religion you buy into, it's not necessarily religious.

Example: Me, agnostic, sitting on a rooftop watching streams of people traversing the streets and feeling a keen connection to them as a fellow human, a sense of 'we are all one'. I'm not doing it as a mode of religious expression, indeed I follow no religion. Remember, agnosticism is just stating that the existence of God is unknown and is in no way a religion. Even if you wanted to try that here, the connection I'm feeling has absolutely nothing to do with conjecture on whether or not God exists, it just has to do with my fellow man, it's outside of agnosticism.

Now, if I were Christian and I sat there and suddenly was hit by the glory of part of God's plan for all of us, that would be a religious expression of spirituality. The former and the instances I do actually express however are not considering I'm an irreligious individual.

Irreligious, for the record, is
Quote:
1.
not religious; not practicing a religion and feeling no religious impulses or emotions.
2.
showing or characterized by a lack of religion.
3.
showing indifference or hostility to religion: irreligious statements.


This much I can concede though: Ritual expressions are referred to as 'religious' such as religiously watching a television show, but 'religious' in this sense of the definition is a pun, a satirical comment pointing to the similarities the fanatical expression between ritual within a religion and the ritual that's being pointed out as 'religious'.

/rant That's really all I had a problem with, using 'religious' in the satirical sense and trying to impose it as actual definition. That, and you wouldn't be the first person that mistook what agnosticism actually is.

Hell rmcdra is technically an agnostic according to the first definition of agnosticism as he's stated over and over again God by nature cannot be proven through science or by empirical means. Believing in God is a matter of faith. In this case, if we go strictly by the first definition, he is an agnostic with theist leanings in contrast to me being agnostic with atheist leanings. He still has faith in God's existence even if he doesn't believe God's existence can be proven through any empirical means. I use that example just to show how broad the spectrum of ideas and beliefs concerning agnosticism really is.

Same goes for atheism, hell if you want an example of how much they differ just look at the ethical and moral codes that different atheists set for themselves. Some believe that they can do whatever the hell they want because there never will be consequences. Some believe that morality in and of itself is reason enough to act in a moral and ethical matter and they don't need any threat of eternal punishment to behave.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:03 pm



I'm getting ready to leave on vacation - and I will answer the post - in full when I get back. In the meantime, here is a brief answer.

The problem if you only look at the definition of a word, you are actually only seeing part of the picture. In many cases, and studies, you have to go into etymology - the study of the origin (and evolution) of a word.

For example; Agnostic comes from the Greek; ἄγνωστος (pronounced - ag*no*sto*s) meaning unknown, unrecognizable, also used as confused and uncertain.

This means an agnostic is uncertain about the existence of god(s).

When I get back, I'll post as similar type study on religion, spirituality, psychology and theology


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:11 pm


Basilia Ann E
Chieftain Twilight
Basilia Ann E
Quote:
You'll notice many people will define spiritual moments as moments of supreme cognition of that very fact. 'I am a part of God's plan' or 'I feel connected to Buddha's nature in the performance of ritual.' That's not to say I think spirituality is exclusively the recognition of inter-connectedness, just that it's a larger part of it than many would consciously think of when thinking of spirituality. Overall, I still think it is more accurate to include spirituality being an expression of self as long as you assume that part of the self is connected to the rest of existence and not apart from it.



You just demonstrated the definition of religion. It's also clear that all religions are not the same. Religions are an expression of spirituality, including lack of spirituality (atheism).

To, "'I am a part of God's plan" and "I feel connected to Buddha's nature in the performance of ritual."

You can add;


  • Sports as a religion (ritualized watching of sports and adoration of sports idols)
  • Science as a religion, where the word "Science" is substituted for the word "God"
  • Anything done "religiously"




... well, here i can say that your definition of Spirituality was only relious. and in fact, incorrect.

Spirituality is NOT a consequence of religion. religion is a consequence of Spirituality.

Spirituality is the connectedness of self-awareness to awareness of the Spirit, and things of a Faith-based lifestyle, or of a personal relationship to the Spiritual.

which seems to be what Helica is actually referring to. that many people FORGET that Spirituality is connectedness, and that the various religions have TEACHINGS of connectedness and Spirituality, but not so many practitioners of these religions actual pay enough attention to the Spiritual aspects of their religions.

i will further illustrate.

i am not religious, i do not belong to any rligion. i have borrowed many teachings from many religions, but i do not adhere to any religion, or agree even considerably with any religion. however, i believe in the Creator, and in Gods and Goddesses, and in Spirits. i believe in the Soul, and in the Otherworld/Spiritual Dimension/Astral Plane, and in Nirvana/Heaven.

by your definition, because i am not religious, i cannot be Spiritual, no matter my practices or beliefs. or, you are saying that my lifestyle, however ecclectic and unique, is a religion. but that goes against the definition of religion found in a dictionary. i have no congregations, no orthodoxy, no tenets or dogma.... i just have a Philosophy. one that states that i cannot settle on any belief, because to settle on a belief is to give up the persuit of Truth. and hat by it's very nature is non-religious, because religions have set beliefs.

i am only being harsh and pushy because that is what debate is good for. ^_^ when one's ideas are chalenged, the speaker must now reasses, and find ways to either support or reform their belief or sttement. it helps both parties to learn from eachother. smile


I don't mind discussion and/or debate - as such I not offended by what other say - even if I strongly disagrees with it.

Once again you have misunderstood what I said. I did not say that spirituality is a consequence of religion. I said that religion is an expression of spirituality - no matter what the spirituality is.

I went further to classify spirituality and its expression - religion. Under which you would be classified as, Agnostic (being spiritual under your own definition and practice)


These views are well supported by research materials in theological, psychological and anthropological research libraries. The problem is the references are too lengthy to post here.



actually, you very blatantly said that Spirituality is a consequence of religion. you used those exact words.

and no, i am not agnostic. agnostic means not being sure whether their is a God/Gods. i fully believe that their is one, i'm just not religious. the difference being, i don't ascribe to any given religion, or to institutionalized worship, only personal worship and practice/belief.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:14 pm


Basilia Ann E
Chieftain Twilight
Basilia Ann E
lucid_mirror
Lateralus es Helica


The two specific examples were examples of the religious side of spiritual expression, especially considering we are in a religion guild after all, but that still doesn't mean that the definition includes solely religion. Indeed atheists have reported that seem feeling of connection when taking walks in nature.

You'll also have to give your own definition of religion because honestly, like Lucid, I think you're way off track with what religion actually is. I think more of what you're talking about goes into Robert Pirsig's world of quality in which one care's about what they're doing. Such moments of connection to a sports game or connection to a test performed within science can have a certain amount of Zen, that same inter-connectedness I speak of, but that does not necessarily make them religious moments. When you're displaying that level of connection, it's a unification of self and the work being done or the game, it's a spiritual moment, not a religious moment.
Clarify why you have the belief that my understanding of religion is not factual in your eyes.


My view on Religion.
All Religions contain the following
1. Moral and Ethical practices.
2. Ritual or Religious practices.
3. A direction of worship whether it be a deity, themselves or others.
4. Answers to the big questions (death, origin etc)



Where the confusion comes in is that religion is often confused with theology. Your (both of you and commonly) view religion as theology, but it's not. Religion (the practice and in Greek called the Typikon - Τυπικον) is not the same as theology.

Religion covers;
1. Moral and Ethical practices.
2. Ritual or Religious practices.
While, theology covers
3. A direction of worship whether it be a deity, deities, themselves or anything else (ie cults).
4. Answers to the big questions (death, origin etc)

Atheism (diametrically opposed to theism) would stack up as follows;

Theology 1st;
1. There is no god or gods
2. belief in nothing, or belief in the self
3. The university is chaos and coincidence

The Religion of Atheism;
1. Communism or Environmentalism - where the state of the environment determines direction, ethics and morals
2. Nazisim or Eugenics - where genetics determine direction, ethics and morals
3. Anarchism & Nihilism; the practice of total chaos and destruction.

Branching from atheism are the agnostics, who aren't sure - and have left their beliefs undefined. (I'm doing a word search on agnostic into the Greek evolution of the word.) I'll post the result when I have it and references.





nazis based their racial superiority on religion, not on any actual science. to call it atheism is rediculous. the so-called "science" of humanology was based entirely on the personal prejiduce that the "researcher" had. every data-point he used as evidence was pure speculation on his part.

and in no way is Communism or Environmentalism a universally accepted thing among atheists. o_O; the majority of atheists i know are iffy about my choice to be a Socialist. they are afraid of Communism/Socialism.

and most importantly, no. the main confusion is not between Theology and religion. that happens, yes, but it is nowhere NEAR as serious and common as the confusion between religion and Spirituality, a confusion that you clearly have in abundance.

i realy think you should do alot more studying of History, Theology, Philosophy, Politics and Science, dear. confused you seem awfully uneducated, and biased. i'm under the impression that you are repeating things that you were taught by your local pastor.... who most likely doesn't even read his own Bible.





Quote:
These views are well supported by research materials in theological, psychological and anthropological research libraries. The problem is the references are too lengthy to post here.



I'm under the impression that you have not understood anything I've written - since I've had to correct you several times as to what I actually said. I do study science I'm an astrophysics major in a university in which you spend a majority of your time in research libraries. I have access to documents (real historical archives) that self-taught guru's don't have access to. My views are based on the rare, and often hidden, documents. This is not to say that they aren't publicly available. You just have to spend a significant amount of your time in a library.

For example, if you study semantics, you would find that my definition of term fall within proper semantic guidelines - this is why I did not further define agnostic I'm sourcing it's etymology from the original Greek. The definitions of religion and spirituality - also have the same attention paid to it.

In reference to the "local pastor" statement - once again a complete misunderstanding. To most local pastors god is white and European. They are in complete ignorance of the first 1000 years of Christianity, which was not European and Christ was not white. Byzantine ikonography from the 800 AD and prior, depicts Christ as dark skinned. Further, archeology and documents show an African-Asian start (centered in the Middle East); with apostolic (founded by the apostles) churches in Ethiopia and India.

Both Harvard University and Oxford have extensive libraries filled with documents (and artifacts) from this period. These documents, in many aspects, fundamental contradict the views of the "local pastor". If you are insistent can post brief (shocking) exerts of the texts - here.

[I'm splitting to posts up to reduce the amount of reading that has to be done in one shot. Along with using this large size font.]



i can concede that we ar elikely having communications errors. yes, semantics make sthings confusing often! xd i still feel like terms are being misused, and i would lik eto clear up the meanings of things.

also, while ancient or obscure texts are awesome, you shouldn't exclude more "common" sources. i stand by everything i have said.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:20 pm


Basilia Ann E

I'm getting ready to leave on vacation - and I will answer the post - in full when I get back. In the meantime, here is a brief answer.

The problem if you only look at the definition of a word, you are actually only seeing part of the picture. In many cases, and studies, you have to go into etymology - the study of the origin (and evolution) of a word.

For example; Agnostic comes from the Greek; ἄγνωστος (pronounced - ag*no*sto*s) meaning unknown, unrecognizable, also used as confused and uncertain.

This means an agnostic is uncertain about the existence of god(s).

When I get back, I'll post as similar type study on religion, spirituality, psychology and theology



in Etymology, however, the root is for understanding where the word came from, you still also have to bear in mind that words change. that's like continuing to mistake the word Tall for meaning Handsome. it simply does not mean the same thing anymore.
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Religious Debate

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