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 Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 9:30 pm
garra_eyes HollywoodNobody Lost Journeyer HollywoodNobody Im no master of my own will. The problem is that we HAVE free will, God gave us the option to sin, if he deprived us of our free will, there would be no sin in this world, because we would not be able to make our own choices. Essentially we would all be mindless robots. so if God deprive us of our free there will be no sin? but the problem is there is sin even if we are a mindless robot... How do you know there would be sin if we were mindless robots? Also, how do you define sin? I'm trying to remember something I read in the Catechism a while back, and I know I don't remember all of it, but it was something along the lines of: with no will, there is no sin, and with no law, there is no sin. So, basically, if we don't have free will, it's impossible to sin, meaning that there would be no sin if we were all mindless robots. It all comes down to how you define sin. HollywoodNobody we think we have choice... but we actually dont...everything is what God wants it to be.... even ur post there... there is no single thing that is not controlled by God... why.... cause God is all knowing... God knows that demons will betrayed It-self before God even created them.. what? do you think there is something God doesnt know? "Lets see... Ill create this entity from fire & let see what happens" no... God always knows every ending before there is a begining it self So? How does knowing something equate to causing something? God is supposed to be all knowing, and all powerful, meaning he can do whatever he wishes. That includes doing nothing. And that's exactly what God does with free will. God knows the decisions we will make, but he does nothing. Why? Because for some reason, he has deemed the ability to make our own choices more important than mindless obedience. no its more like everything we do... God always know the outcome even before we start acting... even with free will.... with that... it still feels like we r in the path of God "almighty" its like when satan sins in the first time... God knows that they will anyway... but God let them sin/ created them to do so ; in the first place.... & bring them down to hell because God knows something like this in the first place ; Satan--------------> Hell (even if they and we have free will/ choice) its like something unavoidable so what i think isbecause God is so powerful nothing is stoping it from Its will... we should just be thankful for what ever God has given us... imagine if God wants us to be sent to Hell right now / change all the reality; like for example twist our head imidietly /makes an un understanable agony to us.... i mean like.. if God want it to happen.. who could have stop It? instead... God still lets us to have this life (good/not,,, descent/not...happy/not) it actually can goes worst...really worst...so just be Thankful to God that its not... God is actualy really kind... ~thank God~
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Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 10:27 am
HollywoodNobody garra_eyes HollywoodNobody Lost Journeyer HollywoodNobody Im no master of my own will. The problem is that we HAVE free will, God gave us the option to sin, if he deprived us of our free will, there would be no sin in this world, because we would not be able to make our own choices. Essentially we would all be mindless robots. so if God deprive us of our free there will be no sin? but the problem is there is sin even if we are a mindless robot... How do you know there would be sin if we were mindless robots? Also, how do you define sin? I'm trying to remember something I read in the Catechism a while back, and I know I don't remember all of it, but it was something along the lines of: with no will, there is no sin, and with no law, there is no sin. So, basically, if we don't have free will, it's impossible to sin, meaning that there would be no sin if we were all mindless robots. It all comes down to how you define sin. HollywoodNobody we think we have choice... but we actually dont...everything is what God wants it to be.... even ur post there... there is no single thing that is not controlled by God... why.... cause God is all knowing... God knows that demons will betrayed It-self before God even created them.. what? do you think there is something God doesnt know? "Lets see... Ill create this entity from fire & let see what happens" no... God always knows every ending before there is a begining it self So? How does knowing something equate to causing something? God is supposed to be all knowing, and all powerful, meaning he can do whatever he wishes. That includes doing nothing. And that's exactly what God does with free will. God knows the decisions we will make, but he does nothing. Why? Because for some reason, he has deemed the ability to make our own choices more important than mindless obedience. no its more like everything we do... God always know the outcome even before we start acting... even with free will.... with that... it still feels like we r in the path of God "almighty" its like when satan sins in the first time... God knows that they will anyway... but God let them sin/ created them to do so ; in the first place.... & bring them down to hell because God knows something like this in the first place ; Satan--------------> Hell (even if they and we have free will/ choice) its like something unavoidable so what i think isbecause God is so powerful nothing is stoping it from Its will... we should just be thankful for what ever God has given us... imagine if God wants us to be sent to Hell right now / change all the reality; like for example twist our head imidietly /makes an un understanable agony to us.... i mean like.. if God want it to happen.. who could have stop It? instead... God still lets us to have this life (good/not,,, descent/not...happy/not) it actually can goes worst...really worst...so just be Thankful to God that its not... God is actualy really kind... ~thank God~ Then why punish us when we break the rules he knows we're going to break? Why kick out Adam and Eve if he knew they would eat the fruit? That's either a lack of knowledge of what we will do with free will, sadism, or incompetence. Take your pick. For example, you have a dog that you want to levitate. You know how gravity works and know that a dog can not levitate. You drop your dog and it hits the ground. You knew this would happen all along. So, in response, you beat your dog because it didn't do what it was never able to do.
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:51 am
divineseraph HollywoodNobody garra_eyes HollywoodNobody Lost Journeyer The problem is that we HAVE free will, God gave us the option to sin, if he deprived us of our free will, there would be no sin in this world, because we would not be able to make our own choices. Essentially we would all be mindless robots. so if God deprive us of our free there will be no sin? but the problem is there is sin even if we are a mindless robot... How do you know there would be sin if we were mindless robots? Also, how do you define sin? I'm trying to remember something I read in the Catechism a while back, and I know I don't remember all of it, but it was something along the lines of: with no will, there is no sin, and with no law, there is no sin. So, basically, if we don't have free will, it's impossible to sin, meaning that there would be no sin if we were all mindless robots. It all comes down to how you define sin. HollywoodNobody we think we have choice... but we actually dont...everything is what God wants it to be.... even ur post there... there is no single thing that is not controlled by God... why.... cause God is all knowing... God knows that demons will betrayed It-self before God even created them.. what? do you think there is something God doesnt know? "Lets see... Ill create this entity from fire & let see what happens" no... God always knows every ending before there is a begining it self So? How does knowing something equate to causing something? God is supposed to be all knowing, and all powerful, meaning he can do whatever he wishes. That includes doing nothing. And that's exactly what God does with free will. God knows the decisions we will make, but he does nothing. Why? Because for some reason, he has deemed the ability to make our own choices more important than mindless obedience. no its more like everything we do... God always know the outcome even before we start acting... even with free will.... with that... it still feels like we r in the path of God "almighty" its like when satan sins in the first time... God knows that they will anyway... but God let them sin/ created them to do so ; in the first place.... & bring them down to hell because God knows something like this in the first place ; Satan--------------> Hell (even if they and we have free will/ choice) its like something unavoidable so what i think isbecause God is so powerful nothing is stoping it from Its will... we should just be thankful for what ever God has given us... imagine if God wants us to be sent to Hell right now / change all the reality; like for example twist our head imidietly /makes an un understanable agony to us.... i mean like.. if God want it to happen.. who could have stop It? instead... God still lets us to have this life (good/not,,, descent/not...happy/not) it actually can goes worst...really worst...so just be Thankful to God that its not... God is actualy really kind... ~thank God~ Then why punish us when we break the rules he knows we're going to break? Why kick out Adam and Eve if he knew they would eat the fruit? That's either a lack of knowledge of what we will do with free will, sadism, or incompetence. Take your pick. For example, you have a dog that you want to levitate. You know how gravity works and know that a dog can not levitate. You drop your dog and it hits the ground. You knew this would happen all along. So, in response, you beat your dog because it didn't do what it was never able to do. yeah i know... but God can do worst... what i meant by kind... is because theres actually no rule from keeping It do worst...
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Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:03 pm
HollywoodNobody divineseraph HollywoodNobody garra_eyes HollywoodNobody so if God deprive us of our free there will be no sin? but the problem is there is sin even if we are a mindless robot... How do you know there would be sin if we were mindless robots? Also, how do you define sin? I'm trying to remember something I read in the Catechism a while back, and I know I don't remember all of it, but it was something along the lines of: with no will, there is no sin, and with no law, there is no sin. So, basically, if we don't have free will, it's impossible to sin, meaning that there would be no sin if we were all mindless robots. It all comes down to how you define sin. HollywoodNobody we think we have choice... but we actually dont...everything is what God wants it to be.... even ur post there... there is no single thing that is not controlled by God... why.... cause God is all knowing... God knows that demons will betrayed It-self before God even created them.. what? do you think there is something God doesnt know? "Lets see... Ill create this entity from fire & let see what happens" no... God always knows every ending before there is a begining it self So? How does knowing something equate to causing something? God is supposed to be all knowing, and all powerful, meaning he can do whatever he wishes. That includes doing nothing. And that's exactly what God does with free will. God knows the decisions we will make, but he does nothing. Why? Because for some reason, he has deemed the ability to make our own choices more important than mindless obedience. no its more like everything we do... God always know the outcome even before we start acting... even with free will.... with that... it still feels like we r in the path of God "almighty" its like when satan sins in the first time... God knows that they will anyway... but God let them sin/ created them to do so ; in the first place.... & bring them down to hell because God knows something like this in the first place ; Satan--------------> Hell (even if they and we have free will/ choice) its like something unavoidable so what i think isbecause God is so powerful nothing is stoping it from Its will... we should just be thankful for what ever God has given us... imagine if God wants us to be sent to Hell right now / change all the reality; like for example twist our head imidietly /makes an un understanable agony to us.... i mean like.. if God want it to happen.. who could have stop It? instead... God still lets us to have this life (good/not,,, descent/not...happy/not) it actually can goes worst...really worst...so just be Thankful to God that its not... God is actualy really kind... ~thank God~ Then why punish us when we break the rules he knows we're going to break? Why kick out Adam and Eve if he knew they would eat the fruit? That's either a lack of knowledge of what we will do with free will, sadism, or incompetence. Take your pick. For example, you have a dog that you want to levitate. You know how gravity works and know that a dog can not levitate. You drop your dog and it hits the ground. You knew this would happen all along. So, in response, you beat your dog because it didn't do what it was never able to do. yeah i know... but God can do worst... what i meant by kind... is because theres actually no rule from keeping It do worst...
Needlessly torturing His creations less that He potentially could doesn't make that God a benevolent one.
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Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:04 am
brainnsoup HollywoodNobody divineseraph HollywoodNobody garra_eyes How do you know there would be sin if we were mindless robots? Also, how do you define sin? I'm trying to remember something I read in the Catechism a while back, and I know I don't remember all of it, but it was something along the lines of: with no will, there is no sin, and with no law, there is no sin. So, basically, if we don't have free will, it's impossible to sin, meaning that there would be no sin if we were all mindless robots. It all comes down to how you define sin. So? How does knowing something equate to causing something? God is supposed to be all knowing, and all powerful, meaning he can do whatever he wishes. That includes doing nothing. And that's exactly what God does with free will. God knows the decisions we will make, but he does nothing. Why? Because for some reason, he has deemed the ability to make our own choices more important than mindless obedience. no its more like everything we do... God always know the outcome even before we start acting... even with free will.... with that... it still feels like we r in the path of God "almighty" its like when satan sins in the first time... God knows that they will anyway... but God let them sin/ created them to do so ; in the first place.... & bring them down to hell because God knows something like this in the first place ; Satan--------------> Hell (even if they and we have free will/ choice) its like something unavoidable so what i think isbecause God is so powerful nothing is stoping it from Its will... we should just be thankful for what ever God has given us... imagine if God wants us to be sent to Hell right now / change all the reality; like for example twist our head imidietly /makes an un understanable agony to us.... i mean like.. if God want it to happen.. who could have stop It? instead... God still lets us to have this life (good/not,,, descent/not...happy/not) it actually can goes worst...really worst...so just be Thankful to God that its not... God is actualy really kind... ~thank God~ Then why punish us when we break the rules he knows we're going to break? Why kick out Adam and Eve if he knew they would eat the fruit? That's either a lack of knowledge of what we will do with free will, sadism, or incompetence. Take your pick. For example, you have a dog that you want to levitate. You know how gravity works and know that a dog can not levitate. You drop your dog and it hits the ground. You knew this would happen all along. So, in response, you beat your dog because it didn't do what it was never able to do. yeah i know... but God can do worst... what i meant by kind... is because theres actually no rule from keeping It do worst...
Needlessly torturing His creations less that He potentially could doesn't make that God a benevolent one.That, and we still haven't gotten past the fact that it's a punishment. A punishment for something, according to you, that we were DETERMINED to do since the beginning of time. Beat a train for following it's track.
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Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:35 am
Elihus Rebuttal to Job I hope that the OP realises his line of reasoning causes the paradox that Allah is in fact dooming people to Hellfire and damnation from before the outset for no justifiable or logical reason, other than he feels like it. That thought process nullifies the entire system of earning your reward that Islam is so heavily founded upon. That includes Christianity and to some extent Judaism as well. As i see it, Chrisrianity has misjudged the purpose of Christ! Ezekiel said, allegedly from God, that a lot of the God-given Rules were crap, possibly a punishment. But none seems to have listened at that time. But look at this: "Do not judge, or You will be judged" LOOK AT IT! That means, that if You don't Judge other people, God won't Judge You? There is also the "Take care of Your brother". Essentially, You get: Help, Guide, but don't condemn. God makes the rules, so who says that even the burning sea is final? Speaking of fire, heard of "to burn for something"? Heard of Baptism by Fire? ............ God don't judge as much as Humans does, is my guess. Why? God has the Information on what has been done and why. Frequently, it wind up into someting incomprehensible as "Nobody's fault" .........
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Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:41 am
Renkon Root HollywoodNobody DaikonNairu -Ren- See. We're nothing more than God's reality simulation game. 3nodding so waccha ganna do bout it? Absolutely nothing. I don't believe in god. LOL! Indeed, i do like Your style, Renkon! heart
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Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:53 am
freelance lover We are sinful because we have free will. If so, then God is automatically sinful. ..... Which may be the case: God gave not just Good Rules, but also Bad Rules to the Jews, and as i see it, that is why a lot of natural things are deemed sinful by too many, even today. Because of this, people are forced, more or less, to break even the Good Rules .......
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Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:04 am
HollywoodNobody imagine if God wants us to be sent to Hell right now / change all the reality; like for example twist our head imidietly /makes an un understanable agony to us.... i mean like.. if God want it to happen.. who could have stop It? instead... God still lets us to have this life (good/not,,, descent/not...happy/not) it actually can goes worst...really worst...so just be Thankful to God that its not... God is actualy really kind... ~thank God~ No. No yet again. Thricefold NO! That would be like calling a torturer kind for not torturing you. That _ Won't _ Do _ ! I have given myself to God, in a way. I often let myself be guided, but the pain i've felt ..... No, better to enjoy God for the good things, than for the absence of bad .......
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Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:20 am
divineseraph [Then why punish us when we break the rules he knows we're going to break? Why kick out Adam and Eve if he knew they would eat the fruit? That's either a lack of knowledge of what we will do with free will, sadism, or incompetence. Take your pick. One: Who says the Adm & Eve story is anything more than a "fairytale"? Two: I have no problem at looking at God as a Sadist ...... but one may also think, that the hardships has a wierd purpose, and once it is finished, the hardships may recede. Three: As a Gamesmaster & Storyteller, i know that some things are neccesary to make good entertainment. Sadly, some of the entertaining things include "Bad Guys", misunderstanding, and odd life stories ......
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Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:38 pm
Tiina Brown divineseraph [Then why punish us when we break the rules he knows we're going to break? Why kick out Adam and Eve if he knew they would eat the fruit? That's either a lack of knowledge of what we will do with free will, sadism, or incompetence. Take your pick. One: Who says the Adm & Eve story is anything more than a "fairytale"? Two: I have no problem at looking at God as a Sadist ...... but one may also think, that the hardships has a wierd purpose, and once it is finished, the hardships may recede. Three: As a Gamesmaster & Storyteller, i know that some things are neccesary to make good entertainment. Sadly, some of the entertaining things include "Bad Guys", misunderstanding, and odd life stories ...... That's why I wasn't talking to you. I am not refuting your argument because you haven't made one, that I am aware of. I was responding to the person I quoted, and attacking THEIR logic. So yours, in response to mine, is irrelevant.
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:59 am
divineseraph Tiina Brown divineseraph [Then why punish us when we break the rules he knows we're going to break? Why kick out Adam and Eve if he knew they would eat the fruit? That's either a lack of knowledge of what we will do with free will, sadism, or incompetence. Take your pick. One: Who says the Adm & Eve story is anything more than a "fairytale"? Two: I have no problem at looking at God as a Sadist ...... but one may also think, that the hardships has a wierd purpose, and once it is finished, the hardships may recede. Three: As a Gamesmaster & Storyteller, i know that some things are neccesary to make good entertainment. Sadly, some of the entertaining things include "Bad Guys", misunderstanding, and odd life stories ...... That's why I wasn't talking to you. I am not refuting your argument because you haven't made one, that I am aware of. I was responding to the person I quoted, and attacking THEIR logic. So yours, in response to mine, is irrelevant. I do not think i would have done that comment if it had been irrelevant ...... We all have things to learn ...... My comment may also be seen as a complement, rather than a reply to Yours, i just noticed .....
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:18 am
Tiina Brown freelance lover We are sinful because we have free will. If so, then God is automatically sinful. ..... Which may be the case: God gave not just Good Rules, but also Bad Rules to the Jews, and as i see it, that is why a lot of natural things are deemed sinful by too many, even today. Because of this, people are forced, more or less, to break even the Good Rules .......
Sin, in reality, is the perversion of the free will that we have been given. A perversion of the pleasures we have be granted and so forth.
Further, what "bad rules" did he give to the Jews? (Just curious here, not so debatey as in the above post).
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Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:59 am
mazuac Tiina Brown freelance lover We are sinful because we have free will. If so, then God is automatically sinful. ..... Which may be the case: God gave not just Good Rules, but also Bad Rules to the Jews, and as i see it, that is why a lot of natural things are deemed sinful by too many, even today. Because of this, people are forced, more or less, to break even the Good Rules .......
Sin, in reality, is the perversion of the free will that we have been given. A perversion of the pleasures we have be granted and so forth.
Further, what "bad rules" did he give to the Jews? (Just curious here, not so debatey as in the above post).If what is truly natural is called sin, then who is to blame? The sinner? As for the bad rules: In Ezekiel is a passage where people asks him for advice, and he retells the relationship between God and God's people, from the time of when Moses brought them out of Egypt. From the original Covenant (the ten commandments, as i see it), how the people turned from God, but God stayed his hand, for the sake of God's Name among the other people, but sayd that instead, the children would get to the promised land. But these also turned from God, so they got to see the promised land, but not live there. Their children also got the option, but also turned from God .... and so on. Somwhere there it is mentioned that God gave them bad laws and rules, as opposed to the good laws and rules (I assume the Ten Commandments to be the Good Laws). ! ! ! ! Someone pointed out to me, that that section has been used for anti-semitic purposes, claiming that all Jewis is falsified. Those who use it in that way, though, seems to forget the passage on the good laws, assumable the Ten Commandments .... I would say that the Ten Commandments are good, but that laws not derived from them, may easily come from the Bad laws instead .....
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Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:33 am
Tiina Brown HollywoodNobody imagine if God wants us to be sent to Hell right now / change all the reality; like for example twist our head imidietly /makes an un understanable agony to us.... i mean like.. if God want it to happen.. who could have stop It? instead... God still lets us to have this life (good/not,,, descent/not...happy/not) it actually can goes worst...really worst...so just be Thankful to God that its not... God is actualy really kind... ~thank God~ No. No yet again. Thricefold NO! That would be like calling a torturer kind for not torturing you. That _ Won't _ Do _ ! I have given myself to God, in a way. I often let myself be guided, but the pain i've felt ..... No, better to enjoy God for the good things, than for the absence of bad ....... if u read all my post... u would know.. that im aware God also has a sadistic side... all im trying to do is to make people think and feel more to the positive side of God while their still realize the sadistic side of It... to make people "better enjoy God for the good things, than for the absence of bad" free will and stuff wasnt my main subject... it was just a thing to get around my point of thingkin positive with the "No No No" ur argument to mine "again" become irrelevant.
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