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 Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:16 pm
The Chainsaw Ninja I have found some very interesting points and arguments here, the best one I’ve seen is by Japanese_Green_Tea, but I don’t see how your point supports God’s existence, I just see you point out a flawed society’s system of moral beliefs and standpoints. But what you have to say was more than worth reading and I’m glad you posted it. Also, another thing I found interesting is that many believe Christianity a cult. In some ways, it is. If you think about it, Jesus and Paul started and lead the Christian movement, any belief started by man, which Jesus came to Earth as, is a cult. Our strongest “religious” ties lie in Judaism. However I would like to make it a point, that many people judge Christians on the old testament and by the worst of us who call themselves Christians in society. Actually, they may not be the worst, they just may care about others at such a level that they blind themselves to what they’re actually doing. Anyway, I’ll come back here later if people are still posting in this thread.
I don't need to repeat why morals are objective or absolute, but in proving that they are, this brings up three questions about its nature. 1. How did they come to being? 2. Why do they exist in this Universe as they do? 3. Why do they apply to human beings the way they do?
When I displayed how morals are absolute and objective, that shows and proves that there is a principle, a truth, that applies to human beings which is not physical, we cannot examine it, and science has no access to its principles.
A universal moral law that is embedded in us, that we know is there, if at the very least on an instinctive level, without knowing how it came to be. People who challenge this notion have argued that the essence of guilt, or the feeling we experience when we do something wrong is a condition created by society and that with practice we can condition ourselves to ignore it since morality and the element of right and wrong don't exist.
But there lies the problem with their statement. If morals are relative then society could condition any form of its own developed form of order and justice into the individual. If by example there is a society that proclaims it is morally okay, to torture and kill babies for fun, can we be conditioned to accept this as okay? I don't think there is anything that could ever justify this to be okay, and instinctively we know that this is wrong no matter how anyone tries to justify it. And if someone speaks out saying, "I think this is okay." We don't think to ourselves that this is his moral belief and we shouldn't judge him, we think there is something seriously wrong with this individual, and that he needs help.
In fact many agnostics and aetheists have tried to argue against Gods existance by saying,
"If there is a loving God, why is there so much evil in this world?"
A fair question no doubt, and one with plenty of answers, but I'll save that for another day, point is, and this goes back to the comment I made in my first post why most aetheists agree that if Moral objectives and absolutes are true then there has to be a God, that the question they pose in itself shows that they accept that there is absolute evil in this world, but if there is absolute evil in this world, then that means that there is absolute good too.
I think I strayed a little from the main point I tried to make so let me get back on main topic. Where do these morals come from? I think thee logical answer to this question is that if there are absolute and objective moral laws, then there must be an absolute law giver to set them into place. If Moral absolutes came into being because of a mere accident and are in play because of an accidental fluke in the creation of the universe, then what moral obligation would we have to follow them? There must be a being which is him/herself the embodiment, the very definition of these moral rights, and when the world was created, these rules were placed in the world, and within each of us as well.
I hope this helped clerify where I was coming from and why I think it is a very strong, if not thee strongest argument for the existance of God. If there is a law, then there must be a law giver, a being that holds more authority over mankind, and over the men with the highest power which would hold even them accountable for breaking these laws.
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Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:12 pm
I'm proudly Christian, but I don't try to force it on anyone. I'll willingly share may faith and if it makes Christianity appeal to you, wonderful! But I preffer getting to know people first and striking up normal conversations rather than getting in their face about it. Jesus didn't, so I don't either.
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Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:24 am
Sheagorath_The_MadGod Quote: Well, first off, the Bible says rather clearly that no man should judge another. So any judging being done is not part of the religion, rather the lack of religion in the person judging. So don't give Christianity a bad rap (wrap?) for that. Ok, anyways, personally, I think you have the right to believe whatever you believe. However, part of Christianity is evangelism, or basically, getting the message out there. No one can or should force you to believe it if you don't want to because then, quite frankly, you wouldn't believe. Oh, and could you please explain to me what Christianity did to you? Might help me understand better. Actually everyone that judges me tells me that the bible says that there are no other gods other then him and that evryone is going to hell if they dont believe in him >.> are you sure youre not supposed to judge sadley you would never believe me and for the sake of people on here id rather not bother you with a fight xd I know i have the right to believe in anything i want, but why do christians etc feel that everyone needs to be in there religion Yup, I'm 99.9% sure that the Bible is against judging: "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."- Matthew 7:2 In other words, the way you judge others is the way you get judged yourself (I have other verses on the matter, if you want them). But I'm not sure exactly if what they're doing is judging exactly. Basically they're telling you what they believe, no? If you don't believe it, then that's your choice. And as for why Christians want others to join their religion, that too is in the Bible. Jesus told His disciples to go and spread the Word through the land. Stopping them from doing that would be just the same as stopping you from practicing part of your religion. As I said before though, Christians shouldn't force their beliefs on anyone. The idea is that you tell them about the religion, and it is their choice about whether or not to accept it. Oh, and if you want to tell me what happened, I promise I won't get mad 3nodding . Now you've piqued my curiosity, and I want to know...
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Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:42 am
green fu man christainty is tainted with inaccurateness i ask some how they came to be and they say family sure or they say they saw/heard/tripped in to or punched the light but for some odd reason they felt it to be that worshiping jesus christ a man u were not here to witness would make sense because well i heard a voice in my head during my time of need. if i sound like i hate reglion its because i do i personaly belive that their is indeed some thing up their but if u dont see it how can u follow it to the point of it changing ur life. live life not the christen life. that's why they tell you to have faith you have to believe no matter if you see it or not.the voice you hear is the small still voice of Gods servent the holy ghost which is here to help us along our way. And if you take the time to really look around you God helps us everyday, I myself have just got back into church i thought the same way but now that i have slowed down and really looked i see the many blessings God has giving me,and it's not just what i ask for but the air i breath everything i see,the small things like that,but also he is there when you need him you just have to ask for his help. JUST HAVE FAITH!!!
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Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:36 am
YEAH FELLOW CHRISTIANS ^^
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Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:50 am
I'm a christian, but I despise those who try to force Christianity on others.
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Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:53 am
monkey_monkey_me I'm a christian, but I despise those who try to force Christianity on others. I know, right? It's their choice. You can't make anyone belief anything that they don't want to. People who try to only end up making them dislike all Christians. It's irritating.
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Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:15 am
whateverisright48 monkey_monkey_me I'm a christian, but I despise those who try to force Christianity on others. I know, right? It's their choice. You can't make anyone belief anything that they don't want to. People who try to only end up making them dislike all Christians. It's irritating. perfect example... their not christian though... Al-Queada tried to force their realigion on us... we didnt accept... they attacked us... we retaliated and aer giving them the hell that they deserve before we kill them and send them to hell Its God's job to forgive Bin Ladin, Its our job to set up the meeting ~USMC
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Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:44 pm
Waki3000 whateverisright48 monkey_monkey_me I'm a christian, but I despise those who try to force Christianity on others. I know, right? It's their choice. You can't make anyone belief anything that they don't want to. People who try to only end up making them dislike all Christians. It's irritating. perfect example... their not christian though... Al-Queada tried to force their realigion on us... we didnt accept... they attacked us... we retaliated and aer giving them the hell that they deserve before we kill them and send them to hell Its God's job to forgive Bin Ladin, Its our job to set up the meeting ~USMC Amen bro... USMC will make Bin Laden sing.
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Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:00 pm
Japanese_Green_Tea, I have a question for you.
I read your posts, and they were, to say the least, thought-provoking.
But how did you prove that morals are absolute? If two peoples's moral systems differ, are those not two different morals? And how is moral relatavism truly self-refuting?
I believe that morals are subjective, as is religion... as an ex-Catholic gay furry atheist, my judgment on Christianity is biased, but I personally find the human subconcious to be on a fundamental level broken... outdated, the source of religion, the source of xenophobia/hatred. I may have pulled out a strawman there, but I truly do believe that religion is in essence a necessary evil... it unites and divides.
(I really bounced around there... sorry to those that could not follow.)
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Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:03 pm
Kroenig Japanese_Green_Tea, I have a question for you. I read your posts, and they were, to say the least, thought-provoking. But how did you prove that morals are absolute? If two peoples's moral systems differ, are those not two different morals? And how is moral relatavism truly self-refuting? I believe that morals are subjective, as is religion... as an ex-Catholic gay furry atheist, my judgment on Christianity is biased, but I personally find the human subconcious to be on a fundamental level broken... outdated, the source of religion, the source of xenophobia/hatred. I may have pulled out a strawman there, but I truly do believe that religion is in essence a necessary evil... it unites and divides. (I really bounced around there... sorry to those that could not follow.)
The proof of absolute morals was found in the self refuting state of relativism. As I stated in my posts, when someone who makes a moral comment, "This is right, this is wrong, this is good, this is bad, ect ect." They are taking their "relative" moral judgment and displaying it as an absolute. In a way it's like saying,
"There are no moral absolutes, here's one."
Moral relativists try and disprove absolute and objective morals, by using absolute and objective moral judgments. It's the equivelant of me going up to an alien race saying, "There are no Human Beings." When I myself am proof to the contrary. Just as everyone who claims there are no moral absolutes, use absolute moral judgments in their argument to disprove it.
As for your statement,
"If two peoples's moral systems differ, are those not two different morals?"
Just because two different people share two different sets of morals doesn't make them both equally valid. If it's of a relative matter like, I think curfew should be 9:00pm when you think it should be 10. Relative moral concepts like these are equally valid because there is no true right and wrong to the answer. But how can two different sets of morals be valid if they are in complete contradiction of each other? I submit the following.
If you believe all morals are relative and equal, and I believe they are absolute/objective and therefore some moral judgments are wrong, can we both be right?
The answer is no. That is the very definition of absolutes, it doesn't matter what we believe because an absolute effects everyone equally. The earth is round, no matter how much you believe the earth is flat, it is still round.
Or let me try and put it this way.
Faye Wattleton, former president for planed parenting wrote a paper on moral neutrality and how all morals are equal and valid, it is a well written piece but it is flawed, here's what she wrote:
"Like most parents I believe that a sense of moral responsibility is one of the greatest gifts I can give my child. But teaching my morality doesn't mean imposing my morality on others. It means sharing wisdom, giving reasons for believing as I do, and trusting others to think and judge for themselves. Resonable people may differ on moral issues, but fundamental respect for others is morality of the highest order."
Her statement is self refuting because 1. she claims morality doesn't mean imposing her morality on others, but with her comment she is. 2. in being a relativists, she claims that respecting others views is morality of the highest order. That's giving an absolute moral principle to the very belief structure of relativism. My question is, if we are to respect others and their beliefs, will she break her own law she established with those who think she is wrong?
Finally, If relativism is indeed true, and our moral beliefs are nothing more than relative opinions, then what does it matter what I have to say? or you? Our moral views are just as valid as the other. And for relativists who try and prove absolute morals are wrong are going against the very fabric of what they believe. Claiming that their moral beliefs are higher than the absolute moral believers.
Hopefully that cleared it up. If not then I really don't know an easier and more plain way of explaining it. Just because different people have different moral beliefs don't make them both valid. If I am against torturing babies for fun, and someone else is, how can that be relatively acceptable? Or for that matter can you truly ever morally justifying such an act? If Morals are relative, you don't have to. And there is a man who logically followed this mode of thinking to it's logical conclusion and did as he pleased because he believed morals are relative, and that the notion of right and wrong is no different than deciding whether to put on white or black socks. His name was Jeffery Dahmer. And if morals are relative, then we have no right in ever, EVER condeming this man.
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Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:22 am
Is it possible to sue the catholic and christain churches for everything they have done?
Actually the whole conversion thing is disgusting, my religions states that unless youre asked you dont talk about religion to ANYONE. You are massacering religions, i could list of who knows how many religions that christianity or other god believeing religions have scoured from the earth
I think that
1 christians need to stop telling me that my gods, godess and demi-gods are flase and have no power at all and that im going to hell if i dont renounce them. Hell, the priests at my old catholic school even called me out of class to talk to me and try to convinve me to renounce my current religion and accept his.
2 either youre friken pope needs to take control of the hunters again or he is going to find a knife in his chest for every Nevarien and gifted child, man and women he orderd to be killed.
3 Accept all religions and stop trying to rule everyones life
4 Tell youre kids to be nice to people with diffrent ideas then you
5 ill add more once im back from school rolleyes
Ps im actually saying this in a happy tone like i would be if this was a good argument that makes me more pleased then frustrated
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Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:59 pm
Sheagorath_The_MadGod Is it possible to sue the catholic and christain churches for everything they have done? Actually the whole conversion thing is disgusting, my religions states that unless youre asked you dont talk about religion to ANYONE. You are massacering religions, i could list of who knows how many religions that christianity or other god believeing religions have scoured from the earth I think that 1 christians need to stop telling me that my gods, godess and demi-gods are flase and have no power at all and that im going to hell if i dont renounce them. Hell, the priests at my old catholic school even called me out of class to talk to me and try to convinve me to renounce my current religion and accept his. 2 either youre friken pope needs to take control of the hunters again or he is going to find a knife in his chest for every Nevarien and gifted child, man and women he orderd to be killed. 3 Accept all religions and stop trying to rule everyones life 4 Tell youre kids to be nice to people with diffrent ideas then you 5 ill add more once im back from school rolleyes Ps im actually saying this in a happy tone like i would be if this was a good argument that makes me more pleased then frustrated Dude.... please stop sterotyping about my religion. In the bible it's somewhere stated to be TOLERANT of others. If they claim christian, and are intolerant, then they are not christian!
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Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:39 pm
Fredrick Baron Sheagorath_The_MadGod Is it possible to sue the catholic and christain churches for everything they have done? Actually the whole conversion thing is disgusting, my religions states that unless youre asked you dont talk about religion to ANYONE. You are massacering religions, i could list of who knows how many religions that christianity or other god believeing religions have scoured from the earth I think that 1 christians need to stop telling me that my gods, godess and demi-gods are flase and have no power at all and that im going to hell if i dont renounce them. Hell, the priests at my old catholic school even called me out of class to talk to me and try to convinve me to renounce my current religion and accept his. 2 either youre friken pope needs to take control of the hunters again or he is going to find a knife in his chest for every Nevarien and gifted child, man and women he orderd to be killed. 3 Accept all religions and stop trying to rule everyones life 4 Tell youre kids to be nice to people with diffrent ideas then you 5 ill add more once im back from school rolleyes Ps im actually saying this in a happy tone like i would be if this was a good argument that makes me more pleased then frustrated Dude.... please stop sterotyping about my religion. In the bible it's somewhere stated to be TOLERANT of others. If they claim christian, and are intolerant, then they are not christian! I agree with Fred, but Christians are sinners too. They are capable of being intolerant. Just chiming in. By the way, to add to your point, Luke 6:37: Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
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Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:46 pm
im sorry if i sounded like i was stareotyping ALL christians
Then tell youre religion to stop stareotyping and degrading every relgion that does not agree with it stare
ive never met a christian (that does not mena there are not any) that has not condemned me to hell for a number of reasons, its impossible not to judge and many christians seem to think they have the right to voice every judgment they have and forgivness is a hard thing to get from people but its a natural thing and allot of times it is given so i cant find a fault there.
I did not know that the christian community still excomunictaed its members?, though in youre case its only name wise not all the other stuff
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