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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:23 am
Quote: ....when I get hit in the stomach, my stomach hurts, there is no impact on my mind, the impact is on my physical body. But you feel it with your mind. Quote: What determines awareness? Is that something that we can actually measure? And lastly, what constitutes a person, and a self? Awareness is conciousness, and you're either aware of something, or you're not. If you have a thought or feeling, you're aware of your thought or feeling. A person or self, I suppose, is a being who has awareness, and the thing that makes them one, separate being, is that they're not ''aware' of other's awareness, (they can't feel other's feelings) and they're aware of each of the things that they're aware of, at once. (And such awarenesses include memory and values and priorities, right?) Quote: Well, do they really not have any memories of the previous Fred, or do they not have access to memories of the previous Fred, there is a huge difference between the two. What's the difference? I don't see any. Quote: In other words, we need to be able to tell the future to be able to know how many people exist in one person. Doesn't this seem a little absurd? Why not just say that a person doesn't exist until they're first aware of something, eh? It's simpler. Quote: I don't think we have souls What do you think a 'soul' is?
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:52 am
Contingent Quote: ....when I get hit in the stomach, my stomach hurts, there is no impact on my mind, the impact is on my physical body. But you feel it with your mind. Do I? How so? Quote: Quote: What determines awareness? Is that something that we can actually measure? And lastly, what constitutes a person, and a self? Awareness is conciousness, and you're either aware of something, or you're not. If you have a thought or feeling, you're aware of your thought or feeling. A person or self, I suppose, is a being who has awareness, and the thing that makes them one, separate being, is that they're not ''aware' of other's awareness, (they can't feel other's feelings) and they're aware of each of the things that they're aware of, at once. How about we try this, a person is a physical body, that may have zero, one, or mare self's. This person, is the collection of physical things. A living person is that which has the ability to actually be alive in this reality. A nonliving person is still a person, however, they lack something that allows them to be alive. A self is completely different from a person. If you are very interested in philosophy and the "self," find some books on epistemology, a lot of the earlier ones will have stuff on what the self is. Try reading Hume, Descartes, Scruton, also, try finding a course one epistemology. Trust me when I say you've come no where close to defining self. All you have defined is that which could be a physical body with a mental side. What is the "self," is it merely a collection of things such as thoughts, or is it something else? Remember, this has to work for both cases of whether this reality is a farce, or if it is "true." Quote: (And such awarenesses include memory and values and priorities, right?) That I know not. I am not the one making the definition, I left it up to you, if you want it, find a way to connect it logically. I see no reason, though as to why they can't be, but, surely you aren't implying they are the only things that make up awareness are you? Quote: Quote: Well, do they really not have any memories of the previous Fred, or do they not have access to memories of the previous Fred, there is a huge difference between the two. What's the difference? I don't see any. Again, a philosophy course would help here more than I can. But, I will try. If I do not have access to a previous memory a, a will still exist, I just can not remember a, however, I may be able to remember a in the future. Whereas if I have no memory of a, that memory does not exist at all, and I will never remember it. Quote: Quote: In other words, we need to be able to tell the future to be able to know how many people exist in one person. Doesn't this seem a little absurd? Why not just say that a person doesn't exist until they're first aware of something, eh? It's simpler. Yes it is simpler, but it is not right. Simple does not always mean right. For example, if I want to learn, it is simpler to do nothing, and learn nothing, but, I am not doing what is right, because I want to learn, but I am not learning by doing nothing. Quote: Quote: I don't think we have souls What do you think a 'soul' is? Is this to me? Well, I'll answer it either way. I think soul is just another word for "self."
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:28 pm
Would you feel it if you didn't have a mind? If not, your mind feels, it, right? As far as I know, feelings of all kinds are mental. If it was just physical, then you might see the damage, but you wouldn't feel it. Quote: How about we try this, a person is a physical body, that may have zero, one, or mare self's. This person, is the collection of physical things. A living person is that which has the ability to actually be alive in this reality. A nonliving person is still a person, however, they lack something that allows them to be alive. Okay, those seem like better words to use. Quote: A self is completely different from a person. If you are very interested in philosophy and the "self," find some books on epistemology, a lot of the earlier ones will have stuff on what the self is. Try reading Hume, Descartes, Scruton, also, try finding a course one epistemology. Trust me when I say you've come no where close to defining self. xp I trust you. Quote: All you have defined is that which could be a physical body with a mental side. Isn't that what a [living] person is? Quote: If I do not have access to a previous memory a, a will still exist, I just can not remember a, however, I may be able to remember a in the future. Whereas if I have no memory of a, that memory does not exist at all, and I will never remember it. a will still exist in reality, but not to the person that can't remember it. If a ceases to exist, then somehow exists again, then the person can still remember it in the future. Quote: Yes it is simpler, but it is not right. Simple does not always mean right. For example, if I want to learn, it is simpler to do nothing, and learn nothing, but, I am not doing what is right, because I want to learn, but I am not learning by doing nothing. I meant that it's simpler and it explains things practically equally. (Whereas 'not learning' is a different thing altogether.) Occam's razor, and all that. Quote: I think soul is just another word for "self." The question wasn't to you, but I agree. (And by that definition, all concious people have souls, but they may not be immortal.)
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:20 pm
Contingent Would you feel it if you didn't have a mind? If not, your mind feels, it, right? As far as I know, feelings of all kinds are mental. If it was just physical, then you might see the damage, but you wouldn't feel it. Keep in mind just because feelings are connected with the brain, that does not mean that they are purely mental. The brain is a physical thing, which goes through physical processes. Now, can I really feel something physical with my mental side? Quote: All you have defined is that which could be a physical body with a mental side. Isn't that what a [living] person is?Except that a [living] person has those, there is no chance they don't. Quote: If I do not have access to a previous memory a, a will still exist, I just can not remember a, however, I may be able to remember a in the future. Whereas if I have no memory of a, that memory does not exist at all, and I will never remember it. a will still exist in reality, but not to the person that can't remember it. If a ceases to exist, then somehow exists again, then the person can still remember it in the future. If I experience something, but cannot remember my experience of it, does it exist? Especially if only I was the one to experience that thing? Quote: I think soul is just another word for "self." (And by that definition, all concious people have souls, but they may not be immortal.) The soul or the concious person?
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:12 am
Quote: Keep in mind just because feelings are connected with the brain, that does not mean that they are purely mental. The brain is a physical thing, which goes through physical processes. Now, can I really feel something physical with my mental side? Does the feeling itself exist in the physical space, where you were damaged/whatever? Not really. It's a message sent to the brain... perceived by the mind. chaoticpuppet Except that a [living] person has those, there is no chance they don't. Yup. And why would they have something extra? Quote: The soul or the concious person? The soul. It doesn't have to be immortal. Don't 'selfs' constantly change with each experience?
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:46 am
Contingent chaoticpuppet Keep in mind just because feelings are connected with the brain, that does not mean that they are purely mental. The brain is a physical thing, which goes through physical processes. Now, can I really feel something physical with my mental side? Does the feeling itself exist in the physical space, where you were damaged/whatever? Not really. It's a message sent to the brain... perceived by the mind. Have you ever noticed the difference between emotional and physical pain? Emotional pain, is what you feel with your mind, physical pain, is something that does not feel good physically, hence the physical. I will tell you that I am not well versed in the area of the brain, I prefer my philosophy. I do not have an indepth comrehension of the brain. Still, every action in the brain that makes you feel physical pain, is that which is controlled by some physical process. Physical pain is not a really a mental process as much as something such as emotional pain. Let's say that I cut my finger, and I don't notice it; but when I look down, and see it, it starts to hurt. Now, why that happens I know not, but, I do know that I physically looked at, and after I recognized it, it hurt. So, maybe if you say, there is a mental part to recognizing physical pain, I would agree with you, but, to say that physical pain has some mental part is not entirely correct. Quote: Quote: The soul or the concious person? The soul. It doesn't have to be immortal. Why not? What stops it from being immortal? If the soul is purely mental, and if purely mental things have no physical ties (if they did, they would cease to be purely mental and become partly mental and partly physical), why do you assume the same rules for the physical world apply? Quote: Don't 'selfs' constantly change with each experience? Well, it depends on what a "self" is (and like I said earlier, many philosophers hace tried, but few if any have defined, or even come close to defining, the "self"), and whether that thing has something to do with experience. It also depends on what experience means.
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:00 am
Quote: Have you ever noticed the difference between emotional and physical pain? Emotional pain, is what you feel with your mind, physical pain, is something that does not feel good physically, hence the physical. The only difference I have noticed is that physical pain is felt somewhere on your body, and emotional pain is felt pretty-much everywhere. Quote: Still, every action in the brain that makes you feel physical pain, is that which is controlled by some physical process. Physical pain is not a really a mental process as much as something such as emotional pain. The whole brain is involved in recognizing, perceiving, and taking action to prevent the continuation of pain. The same thing is true for emotion, 'cept it's mainly centered in the "limbic system". Quote: Let's say that I cut my finger, and I don't notice it; but when I look down, and see it, it starts to hurt. That's never happened to me; if it doesn't hurt when it happens, then your nervous system isn't functioning properly... In the same way, it's possible for you to not feel emotions properly if some part of the brain is damaged. Quote: to say that physical pain has some mental part is not entirely correct. Are not "selfs" entirely mental? How would we even know of physical pain if it wasn't mental?
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:08 am
Contingent The whole brain is involved in recognizing, perceiving, and taking action to prevent the continuation of pain. The same thing is true for emotion, 'cept it's mainly centered in the "limbic system". Evenstill, the brain is not purely a mental object, it has physical qualities, and a lot of the processes it does are physical processes, or at least are partly physical in their processes. Quote: That's never happened to me; if it doesn't hurt when it happens, then your nervous system isn't functioning properly... You've never cut yourself anywhere, and not noticed it, then when you look at where you got cut, you finally notice it, and it feels slightly unpleasent? Quote: In the same way, it's possible for you to not feel emotions properly if some part of the brain is damaged. That doesn't absolve emotional pain, it just means, that you don't necessarily feel them like another person. Quote: Are not "selfs" entirely mental? How would we even know of physical pain if it wasn't mental? Well, as I have said before, we are not entirely sure of what "self's" are they could be entirely mental, or they could be partly mental, and partly physical, or they could be something completely different.
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Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:04 pm
Well, its hard to say. I don't really think that humans are capable of tolerating eternal bliss, so if that is true our spirits must somehow change after we die.
Personally, I think some part of us, though not anything that could definitively be called consiousness or even unconsiousness remains in this universe after death. I mean, they say our thoughts are made of electric impulses, so The Law of Conservation of Energy would have that energy remain.
Ideally (at least in my mind), death or the afterlife are not eternal at all. That our spirit or soul (or whatever) travel through countless worlds or planes (or whatever). But that is just wishful thinking.
But those are just a couple of ideas. I fear I've embarrased myself with ignorant ranting. Oh well, I'm still hitting "Submit".
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Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:08 am
Quote: I mean, they say our thoughts are made of electric impulses, so The Law of Conservation of Energy would have that energy remain. ...Our thoughts aren't made of the impulses, they're caused by them. The energy goes elsewhere in the physical world. Quote: I don't really think that humans are capable of tolerating eternal bliss I think I'd be ready for it anyday... whee Quote: Oh well, I'm still hitting "Submit". Do not fear!
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Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:09 pm
I used to be afraid of death. Just the thought of suddenly being...nothing. Sleeping constantly, seeing nothing, tasting nothing, doing nothing...it freaked me out. I used to cry thinking about my being dead. Once I got saved though I found it a comforting thought. Dying means being with my Holy Father and my brothers and sisters in Christ. No pain, no hate, nothing but eternal love and happiness. So now I'm looking forward to it. I believe reincarnation might have a theory behind it and some possible reason. Not sure. I mean, the Messiah is supposed to come back right? Probably in a different form. So see? I think that's a form of reincarnation, not sure. Haven't looked up on it. I believe religion is real. And I believe there are places beyond earth that you can go to when you die, depending on your beliefs. But that's just me.
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Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:19 pm
ScarredImage I used to be afraid of death. Just the thought of suddenly being...nothing. Sleeping constantly, seeing nothing, tasting nothing, doing nothing...it freaked me out. I used to cry thinking about my being dead. Once I got saved though I found it a comforting thought. Dying means being with my Holy Father and my brothers and sisters in Christ. No pain, no hate, nothing but eternal love and happiness. So now I'm looking forward to it. I believe reincarnation might have a theory behind it and some possible reason. Not sure. I mean, the Messiah is supposed to come back right? Probably in a different form. So see? I think that's a form of reincarnation, not sure. Haven't looked up on it. I believe religion is real. And I believe there are places beyond earth that you can go to when you die, depending on your beliefs. But that's just me. Any certain reasons for this? Or is really just something you "feel" is right, and cannot really explain it?
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Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:57 pm
I think when we die we just vanish into nothingness.....some ppl tell me they can't wait to go to heaven and i just see that as sad. cuz we could make heaven here on earth. thats wat i think.
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:39 am
TheGurentai Some people tell me they can't wait to go to heaven and I just see that as sad, because we could make heaven here on earth. How could we make 'heaven' here? How is it that people expecting heaven prevents this?
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:44 am
Contingent TheGurentai Some people tell me they can't wait to go to heaven and I just see that as sad, because we could make heaven here on earth. How could we make 'heaven' here? How is it that people expecting heaven prevents this? Moreover, would this heaven on earth be considered a utopia? If so, do you realize how impossible that is? In this reality, we need things like sorrow, and anger to experience things like happy. They are dependent on each other. How would you make something where everyone is happy all the time? Would this place be constantly changing? How does one defeat things like sorrow, and in return gain a lifetime of happiness?
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