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 Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:45 am
sachiko_sohma Sorry but it's hard to understand your side when it comes to abortion (at least elective abortion). I look up facts (medical facts) and read stories and articles involving pro-choice but still can't understand it most of the time. To be honest I don't really like the debate, often I feel out numbered and it feels too hostile and way too overwhelming. Feels too pro-choice, not neutral (which would be better and more fair to both sides in my opinion. Give views and facts for both sides). I do agree what both sides can be a bit nicer and stop the hit and run posts (not just pro-lifers that are guilty, some pro-choices are as well. I seen some that just say "I'm pro-choice" or "I think women should be able choose" and never say why they believe so or give any facts). I think that we should work together on some issues in order to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place (because people on both sides what less abortions). Even some abortion clinics/pro-choice places don't always tell the truth or tell women about all the possible risks and side-effects or talk about other options (not all are safe as they claim to be, in fact few places were forced to shut down do to how it was running things). So both sides had be guilty of dishonesty, people seem to forget that. I think on abortion we can pretty much agree to disagree, but I agree with all your other points. I know my side lies. I'd much rather everybody was upfront and honest. I remembered the name: crisis pregnancy centres. I've heard of women seeking abortion going to them, and they use delay tactics and scare tactics until the woman doesn't or can't get an abortion. s**t like that undermines what your side stands for. If I had money I'd suggest we start an organisation. ;D It'd be good to form a coalition that'll fight for ways to reduce abortions. EDIT: I even thought of a tagline: "Because abortion isn't your only choice". I don't think it sounds particularly pro-life or pro-choice, just really neutral and sort of like ways to avoid abortion I guess.
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Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:04 am
Well I don't know much about CPC but they should of been up front and told them that they are a pro-life center or that they don't or won't preform abortions as lying isn't a good way to get people on your side or support you.
Yes, if I had money I would support programs that help pregnant women. Maybe if they got help (care they need and schools that supports them or help with adoption if they choose to give it up), less would abort or feel the need to. Also should have a better a plan to help prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place.
Also there needs to me better health care in general; You don't know how hard it was just for me to get a pap smear. Even thought I'm on BC (mainly for health issues) but since I'm not sexually active, I had been turned down a few times (even though they were the ones that set up the appointment).
Maybe they can also treat certian illnesses and cancers that is related to all that (like breast cancer, ovarian cancers, ect..).
If they call it Women's Health Centers (not family or planned parenthood), more people might support it or feel more comfortable as it would more neutral and not overly pro-choice or pro-life.
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Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 7:30 am
Quote: Go on twisting my words if it helps make you feel better. I never said that. I didn't say you said that. I said that's what I think you mean. Quote: There are very few pro-life posters out in the ED generally, but I'm sure you've seen the Abortion Debate threads and how all the hit-and-run pro-lifers tend to say IT IS MURDER HOW DARE YOU KILL INNOCENT BABIES. Why can't you turn it around and try and see how WE feel? We feel like you're trying to take away the right for a woman to decide what is best for her. I KNOW why your side feels the way it does, and I know why you get passionate about it. Even though I disagree. Go on, try a little empathy. Some of your side genuinely believe we are murderers. Some of my side genuinely believe you are anti-woman. I know how you feel. s**t, being around Gaia ALONE, lets me know how you feel. The problem is, and I know this will sound conveniently partisan, but the strident pro-lifers who call you murderers are actually getting that from somewhere. You're purposely KILLING another human life. I still don't agree with the accusation, but it's not like they're just coming up with something out of the blue. The whole anti-woman thing, though, makes no sense. The fact that she has to kill her unborn child to express her womanhood or whatever the hell, nullifies any sensitivity we'd have towards her. We don't think women should have to suffer, but then again, we don't think women should have this trump card in order to assert her autonomy. We're interested in getting rid of one aspect of one choice. How that becomes "you just hate women" makes no sense, and I think most of you know it. Quote: I don't refute my side's bad behaviour. As I pointed out above, I challenge it. I think it's hurting our cause, ultimately. I'm just saying that before accusing my side of being nasty, you should look around your side. Quote: OK, I've looked around. What am I supposed to see? Quote: I didn't say the majority of pro-lifers were like that, I said it was the vocal minority - the ones who get heard. And I STILL don't agree with ANY namecalling or douchebaggery. OK. Quote: So you admit you're trying to piss us off now? : P I never said they don't do s**t. I said, again, that the vocal pro-life organisations don't do a lot. I know that a lot of pro-lifers here and in the real world are pro-contraception and pro-sex education. I know exactly why people support abstinence-only. I just think it's a very naive position. Note: I'm not pro-abstinence-only. I don't think it's particularly naive. I think people understand abstinence is foolproof, and the only way of truly getting rid of the need for abortion and getting rid of STDs is to be abstinent. I think they're more resound in their support of abstinence, not necessarily "abstinence-only" the program. Quote: Services for new mothers is good, and I fully support that. I don't support the... I've forgotten what they're called... but they tell lies to women about abortion, they tell lies to women who want abortion and I don't agree with that. I think if they're a pro-life organisation, they should come right out and say it and play down abortion, because that's being honest. I don't think there's anything wrong with getting a woman to consider all her options and decide that a kneejerk abortion isn't right for her after all. I don't support dishonesty to achieve that end. Me neither. I just think people need to be more honest about their goals. A lot of people who claim to be pro-choice, really don't care if women have too many abortions nor do they care about ways in which they can reduce the need for abortions. They're only interested in the part where they can b***h and moan about civil liberties and rights. Pro-lifers get a bad rep because we, more often I think, want to actually heal the entirety of the debate. But to do that, we have to actually address the attitudes and actions that pertain to unwanted pregnancy and abortion. Except, when we do it, we get called anti-woman, among other things.
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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 10:49 am
Fran Salaska If I had money I'd suggest we start an organisation. ;D It'd be good to form a coalition that'll fight for ways to reduce abortions. EDIT: I even thought of a tagline: "Because abortion isn't your only choice". I don't think it sounds particularly pro-life or pro-choice, just really neutral and sort of like ways to avoid abortion I guess. Actually, that's precisely what a lot of crisis pregnancy centers already do. There have been pro-choicers who've gone to CPCs intending to expose their evil trickery, and been shocked when they're not shown any gory abortion footage or told to accept Jesus, but rather been given a free pregnancy test and referrals to charities where they can get free baby stuff.
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:54 am
I've always been a proponent of "You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar". And in the abortion debate, it has often served me better to take the high road, than to be an aggressive debater.
The Pro-life side is highly stigmatized on Gaia. I find that it's difficult to present a pro-life viewpoint if your sarcasm and negativity level is deemed too high, because then many will consider you to be an idiot off the bat, possibly woman-hating, too gung-ho to consider your viewpoint, because all you can see is a viewpoint that disgusts you.
I prefer not to go out of my way to be ignorant about other people's viewpoints, and I've had pro-choice people want to listen to what I have to say about why I disagree with abortion. I have the same reasons that any woman would have for not wanting abortion.
It's not easy to be pro-life on Gaia, but if you do it with a little respect and dignity intact (which I don't see happening if there's negativity thrown about), you can get a little bit more out of talking to choicers.
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Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:15 am
La Veuve Zin Fran Salaska If I had money I'd suggest we start an organisation. ;D It'd be good to form a coalition that'll fight for ways to reduce abortions. EDIT: I even thought of a tagline: "Because abortion isn't your only choice". I don't think it sounds particularly pro-life or pro-choice, just really neutral and sort of like ways to avoid abortion I guess. Actually, that's precisely what a lot of crisis pregnancy centers already do. There have been pro-choicers who've gone to CPCs intending to expose their evil trickery, and been shocked when they're not shown any gory abortion footage or told to accept Jesus, but rather been given a free pregnancy test and referrals to charities where they can get free baby stuff.
If I ever have enough money I am 100% down for creating my own crisis pregnancy centre which doesn't shy away from those kinds of topics and that actually has hours that younger people can come without skipping school.
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:59 am
La Veuve Zin Fran Salaska If I had money I'd suggest we start an organisation. ;D It'd be good to form a coalition that'll fight for ways to reduce abortions. EDIT: I even thought of a tagline: "Because abortion isn't your only choice". I don't think it sounds particularly pro-life or pro-choice, just really neutral and sort of like ways to avoid abortion I guess. Actually, that's precisely what a lot of crisis pregnancy centers already do. There have been pro-choicers who've gone to CPCs intending to expose their evil trickery, and been shocked when they're not shown any gory abortion footage or told to accept Jesus, but rather been given a free pregnancy test and referrals to charities where they can get free baby stuff. Some, I can accept. But everybody lies. By this point, I'm far more interested in collaborating for ways to reduce abortion, than to fight for "choice" or "life". Jabberwock: seriously? That's pretty sucky. Hell, what about people that have to work for a living, also? D:
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Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 4:44 pm
Fran Salaska La Veuve Zin Fran Salaska If I had money I'd suggest we start an organisation. ;D It'd be good to form a coalition that'll fight for ways to reduce abortions. EDIT: I even thought of a tagline: "Because abortion isn't your only choice". I don't think it sounds particularly pro-life or pro-choice, just really neutral and sort of like ways to avoid abortion I guess. Actually, that's precisely what a lot of crisis pregnancy centers already do. There have been pro-choicers who've gone to CPCs intending to expose their evil trickery, and been shocked when they're not shown any gory abortion footage or told to accept Jesus, but rather been given a free pregnancy test and referrals to charities where they can get free baby stuff. Some, I can accept. But everybody lies. You watch too much House. razz But seriously, you think it's more likely that this largely volunteer organization does these things as a rule, or that there's small instances where fanatics do these things? Besides, it'd be silly to go to a CPC if you're actively seeking an abortion; That's not what they're for. As far as what Jabbers is saying, well, once they're pregnant the birth control doesn't do much good anyways. sweatdrop I agree that that's bullshit, but it hardly makes them evil.
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Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:57 am
I.Am Fran Salaska La Veuve Zin Fran Salaska If I had money I'd suggest we start an organisation. ;D It'd be good to form a coalition that'll fight for ways to reduce abortions. EDIT: I even thought of a tagline: "Because abortion isn't your only choice". I don't think it sounds particularly pro-life or pro-choice, just really neutral and sort of like ways to avoid abortion I guess. Actually, that's precisely what a lot of crisis pregnancy centers already do. There have been pro-choicers who've gone to CPCs intending to expose their evil trickery, and been shocked when they're not shown any gory abortion footage or told to accept Jesus, but rather been given a free pregnancy test and referrals to charities where they can get free baby stuff. Some, I can accept. But everybody lies. You watch too much House. razz But seriously, you think it's more likely that this largely volunteer organization does these things as a rule, or that there's small instances where fanatics do these things? Besides, it'd be silly to go to a CPC if you're actively seeking an abortion; That's not what they're for. As far as what Jabbers is saying, well, once they're pregnant the birth control doesn't do much good anyways. sweatdrop I agree that that's bullshit, but it hardly makes them evil. Yes, I think it's pretty clear that CPC doesn't preform abortions. Though when they are pregnant, they can't take birth control but that doesn't mean that they can't tell them about so they can think about using it later to prevent situations like these. Not telling them about BC isn't going to stop them from having premarital sex nor will it help lower abortions. By the way, I'm probably the one that watches too much House, I can't wait to see the new episode (I think it's tonight). mrgreen
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Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:59 pm
Fran: Yessum! When I was younger I went to PP for birth control (then I realized it was cheaper to not get it through them because my family doctor gave teens birth control for free if they didn't have insurance) and I'd have to skip my last class in order to get there before it closed. I think one day it was open until around 5pm, but by the time I got there by bus it was about 5pm anyway.
Andy: Well yes, but people don't stay pregnant forever. What happens after they have the baby? Just send them back out into the world so that they get pregnant again? I don't think it makes them evil, they do a lot of good as well. But they seriously have their head buried in the sand, and are really cutting themselves off from the people that need them. If they act like birth control is a taboo subject because pre-marital sex is bad, then how do you suppose that makes the girl who is probably there because she's had pre-marital sex, feel?
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Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:31 pm
sachiko_sohma Yes, I think it's pretty clear that CPC doesn't preform abortions. Though when they are pregnant, they can't take birth control but that doesn't mean that they can't tell them about so they can think about using it later to prevent situations like these. Not telling them about BC isn't going to stop them from having premarital sex nor will it help lower abortions. By the way, I'm probably the one that watches too much House, I can't wait to see the new episode (I think it's tonight). mrgreen Oh, I watch too much House too. xd It's so ridiculous sometimes, but it's so addictive. And is it tonight??? Holy crapple. Gotta TIVO that. Anyways, I know. I said that. I'm just trying to say that that shouldn't contribute to the Pro-Choice propaganda that CPCs are these horrible places; Yeah, unfortunately there's going to be Fundie-controlled instances that are like that, but they still care. And they still usually do a good job at what they're supposed to do; Help expectant mothers get by.
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Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:27 am
I.Am sachiko_sohma Yes, I think it's pretty clear that CPC doesn't preform abortions. Though when they are pregnant, they can't take birth control but that doesn't mean that they can't tell them about so they can think about using it later to prevent situations like these. Not telling them about BC isn't going to stop them from having premarital sex nor will it help lower abortions. By the way, I'm probably the one that watches too much House, I can't wait to see the new episode (I think it's tonight). mrgreen Oh, I watch too much House too. xd It's so ridiculous sometimes, but it's so addictive. And is it tonight??? Holy crapple. Gotta TIVO that. Anyways, I know. I said that. I'm just trying to say that that shouldn't contribute to the Pro-Choice propaganda that CPCs are these horrible places; Yeah, unfortunately there's going to be Fundie-controlled instances that are like that, but they still care. And they still usually do a good job at what they're supposed to do; Help expectant mothers get by. I think we all watch too much House. XD I'm still catching up on the last series, I don't think the fifth one is due to air here for another month or two. I'm sure CPCs are good at what they do - they want to keep women pregnant and give them resources to do so. ^_^
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Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:21 pm
sachiko_sohma By the way, I'm probably the one that watches too much House, I can't wait to see the new episode (I think it's tonight). mrgreen It is not possible to watch too much House.
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Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:24 pm
Fran Salaska I'm sure CPCs are good at what they do - they want to keep women pregnant and give them resources to do so. ^_^ I don't think they want to keep women pregnant (and barefoot, in the kitchen, making delicious pie). *wink* I'm sure what you meant was more along the lines of, they want to help pregnant women carry their pregnancies to term and care for the resulting infant. Though some places (also or only) focus on finding adoptive families for the pregnant woman to consider, I don't know if they are considered CPCs though.
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Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:30 pm
It's almost strange, I feel. Both sides almost agree on what they want, a reduction of unintentional pregnancies. We almost agree on the way to achieve this: encouraging abstinence and (usually) teaching about contraceptive use. I think both sides would also like to see better treatment of pregnant women (I know I would!).
Eventually, I feel, elective abortion won't even be an issue. Artificial wombs and fetal transplant surgery should really make elective abortion a thing of the past.
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