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Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:07 pm
Ivien you hold logic beyong your years... either that or your one true phan whee 3nodding
I do approve and accept your logic, but there is another alternation that she could have chosen.. NEITHER!!! Thats always a possibility!
but one thing that pisses me off.... I don't know if it counts in just the movie, or everything else but this drove me CRRRAAAAZZZYYY
Proof that Christine is a complete, utter dits and can't think for herself:
Ok, her entire life in the opera house she grew up listening to this voice, which taught her how to sing, etc... She believed this was her Angel of Music, the one her father sent her. For some ******** reason she thought it was her fathers spirit teaching her, blehbleh etc.... In the mirror scene, the voice comes to her once more... the SAME voice she's heard her entire childhood... her so called, "Angel of Music" and she see's that its the Phantom of the Opera... Now, in any normal persons mind, they connect "Angel of Music" and "Phantom of the Opera" are the S-A-M-E person... a living, breathing, human bodied, Person... technically impossible for the "Angel of Music" to be her father, or her fathers spirit.. in any way!! Now I will let her get away with not making these full conclusions at this exact point because of the phantom's sexyness and seduction... she's thinking of other stuff, not what I just pointed out lol.... By now, she has returned... Il Muto has happened, all I ask of you has happened, phantom all mad now, blehbleh not of importance to what I'm talking about exactly.... Skip to the Masqurade! During the Phantoms intrusion (sp?) in the Masqurade ball, he CLEARLY indicates to Christine that he is her t-e-a-c-h-e-r!!! Her teacher which was "The Angel of Music" and he is "The Phantom of the Opera" once again, another point where the two become clearly connected!!! right before christines eyes!!! then whatever all this s**t happens, not of importance to my rant..... After she sings "Wishing you were here again" she is sitting on the steps of her fathers grave.... (IN THE MOVIE anyways....) She finishes, and the phantom sings a hypnotic line to her and she replies with the most stupid thing EVER because... this is the S-A-M-E voice she's been listening to the ENITRE time living at the opera house. She says "angel or father, friend or phantom; who is it this time?" We have already concluded that "Angel of Music" and "Phantom of the Opera" are the SAME person.... But that is the VOICE she's been hearing for GOD KNOWS HOW MANY YEARS..... and its obvious, that the Phantom isn't her father.... in no way is it possible..... and friend? well I don't know where the hell that came from but meh.......
that line just drives me CRAZY!!!! How could she be So retarded to NOT connect Angel and Phantom, then Ask which one it is later on, when its been displayed twice that they are the same person...
and don't you think she'd remember his voice? I mean.... years of hearing it.... years of whorshiping it..... you think she'd reconize the voice?!?!?!? Argh!!! I'm gunna stop this before I kill something!!!!! gonk
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Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:31 am
Deadly Lullaby Ivien you hold logic beyong your years... either that or your one true phan whee 3nodding
I do approve and accept your logic, but there is another alternation that she could have chosen.. NEITHER!!! Thats always a possibility! [big huge rant] Woah simmer down there! I think you're taking it too literally. She knows Erik is "The Phantom" but to her he's "The Angel." It all has to do with the subplot of what really to think of Erik. Underneath his genius and wish to be accepted by others, lurks bitterness, hatred and all of the other things that make him "The Phantom." In a way it's comparable to multiple personalities/personas, but it's just the complexity of Erik. He has different facets and personalities that he displays at certain times as they are needed. "Angel or Demon?" Man or Monster? Genius or Madman? The lines are so fine between all of these, and most of it depends on your perception. Until he started appearing to her in the flesh and blood, Christine never saw any of his darker qualities that branded him as a devil among society. And it really is unclear what Erik is, Christine seems to think of him as a father figure, and a musical instructor, so it would be at least plausible of her to think, "this man is the spirit of my father speaking to me," type of thing. (It also helps that she desperatley wants to believe that he's been sent from her father too...) To her he's also an inspiration and a source of comfort, and since she has been training with him all these years it would be even harder for her to suddenly change her opinion of him. It's not so cut and dry at all. Christine has a lot of emotional and spiritual feelings tied up into the Angel of Music figure she created out of Erik, it would be hard to let go of that and suddenly have nowhere to turn to. I imagine she'd also feel as though she were betraying her father in a way by spurning the angel he sent. ..And I was talking with my mum earlier today, and apparently in some versions they think that the Phantom actually is her father.. which would be kinda gross and creepy but then, Roul does say in the graveyard scene, "Christine, listen to me. Whatever you may believe this man--this thing is not your father!" ... *psst!* I thought the line was,* "Angel or father, friend or phantom, who is it there staring..?" Perhaps I'm wrong, or that's just my version on the CD... So anyways, she's not really asking, "Are you the phantom AND the angel?" She's asking, "Who are you this time, right now? Who are you really? Did my father really send you? Have I let myself been decieved?" The line has actuallly been one of my favorites. I like it 'cuz it's a 'loaded statement' I guess whee
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Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:10 pm
I agree with Joel on this one. She loved Raoul for who she was; they had known each other since childhood, and they had a traditional, loving relationship. With the phantom, he asked more of her. With Erik, it was more soulfull, deep, and perhaps... prison-like?
... Erik needed a hug *tears up again*
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Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:14 pm
Deadly Lullaby Ivien you hold logic beyong your years... either that or your one true phan whee 3nodding
I do approve and accept your logic, but there is another alternation that she could have chosen.. NEITHER!!! Thats always a possibility!
but one thing that pisses me off.... I don't know if it counts in just the movie, or everything else but this drove me CRRRAAAAZZZYYY
Proof that Christine is a complete, utter dits and can't think for herself:
Ok, her entire life in the opera house she grew up listening to this voice, which taught her how to sing, etc... She believed this was her Angel of Music, the one her father sent her. For some ******** reason she thought it was her fathers spirit teaching her, blehbleh etc.... In the mirror scene, the voice comes to her once more... the SAME voice she's heard her entire childhood... her so called, "Angel of Music" and she see's that its the Phantom of the Opera... Now, in any normal persons mind, they connect "Angel of Music" and "Phantom of the Opera" are the S-A-M-E person... a living, breathing, human bodied, Person... technically impossible for the "Angel of Music" to be her father, or her fathers spirit.. in any way!! Now I will let her get away with not making these full conclusions at this exact point because of the phantom's sexyness and seduction... she's thinking of other stuff, not what I just pointed out lol.... By now, she has returned... Il Muto has happened, all I ask of you has happened, phantom all mad now, blehbleh not of importance to what I'm talking about exactly.... Skip to the Masqurade! During the Phantoms intrusion (sp?) in the Masqurade ball, he CLEARLY indicates to Christine that he is her t-e-a-c-h-e-r!!! Her teacher which was "The Angel of Music" and he is "The Phantom of the Opera" once again, another point where the two become clearly connected!!! right before christines eyes!!! then whatever all this s**t happens, not of importance to my rant..... After she sings "Wishing you were here again" she is sitting on the steps of her fathers grave.... (IN THE MOVIE anyways....) She finishes, and the phantom sings a hypnotic line to her and she replies with the most stupid thing EVER because... this is the S-A-M-E voice she's been listening to the ENITRE time living at the opera house. She says "angel or father, friend or phantom; who is it this time?" We have already concluded that "Angel of Music" and "Phantom of the Opera" are the SAME person.... But that is the VOICE she's been hearing for GOD KNOWS HOW MANY YEARS..... and its obvious, that the Phantom isn't her father.... in no way is it possible..... and friend? well I don't know where the hell that came from but meh.......
that line just drives me CRAZY!!!! How could she be So retarded to NOT connect Angel and Phantom, then Ask which one it is later on, when its been displayed twice that they are the same person...
and don't you think she'd remember his voice? I mean.... years of hearing it.... years of whorshiping it..... you think she'd reconize the voice?!?!?!? Argh!!! I'm gunna stop this before I kill something!!!!! gonk Woah. Someone dislikes her. O_o Really, Christine wasn't stupid. It was more innocence vs. ignorance than lack of braincells. Her Father passed away when she was young and on his death bed swore that he would send her the Angel of Music once he reached Heaven. Tell me you wouldn't hang onto those words like a valued keepsake. It was all she had left of him; that promise. And actually, Erik only tutored her a few months before the events of the story took place. Not years. If it had been years, I'm pretty sure she would've put two and two together eventually. Honestly, I don't get how she could not get upset upon seeing Erik as nothing but a man with a beautiful voice when he revealed himself in the Mirror scene. In a way that was a lie because he wasn't some ethereal being or her Father as she had thought him to be. He was simply a man. But I suppose she was just so thrilled to see her tutor in human form instead of just a voice that nothing really mattered. I think it was only after she tore away his mask that she realised the full extent of who he was. Perhaps she thought the mask would be hiding a handsome face, much like the story of Psyche and Cupid where Psyche is married to a man she never sees until she defies his wishes and holds a candle to his face as he sleeps and sees her gorgeous husband Cupid, who then flies away in anger and betrayal. Only what is behind the mask is no god; much the opposite. I think Christine knew just who her Angel was. After all, in the book she tells Raoul that "there is no Angel! There is only Erik!" which clearly indicates she isn't in a stupor. When Erik sings to her at her Father's grave, the line is "Angel or Father; friend or phantom? Who is it there staring?" which clearly asks 'just who are you?' Erik's lied to her about who he was and said he was so many things that she's unsure of him and his true identity. I think in a way she wanted to believe he was her Father in some odd way; or perhaps that she thought him a Father-figure because he's so much older than her and in a way she's still a child seeking someone to dote upon her in a parental manner. Back to the title subject: Did she? Well, in my opinion it was love, but not the kind he wanted from her. There are different definitions such as loving your family, friends, and pets. Then there's Romance love. When Erik first came into her life he was guised as the Angel of Music that her Father had promised to send. For this she loved him because her angel had finally come. But it was love in a way that a child loves their parent. She saw her Father in that voice and thus loved him as such. When he reveals that he is not an angel, only a disfigured man who loves her, I believe her affections were bruised. The daughterly love became pity. Yes I believe in a way she still thought of him as her Father, but it had to be pity driving her to stay. She felt sorry for him and did not want to hurt him even though she feared him with all her being. Lastly, in the ultimate decision she went with Raoul. Yes she chose Erik to save him and that alone speaks her feelings for the Viscount. She was willing to give up her freedom and a life of happiness with a childhood friend in order to save the man she loved. Long story short: It varies, but in a sense she did. ...Hooboy. Someone's gonna tear my opinions to shreds. ><
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Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:43 am
Eric_the_Phantom That's probably the most perfect answer I've ever heard heart . I couldn't agree more. Thanks I litterally grew up to Phantom of the Opera for the past 18 years, so as you can tell I've had alot of time to think about these things. Yet also going along with the movie I am going to add that even though Christine DID listen to the voice of Erik for years, she was also come with remorse of her dead father. Erik was more or less the only fatherly figure in her life after her real father died. Wich with a child with no real parents getting trained in an Opera house would effect one by far to the point in trusting the phantom almost like famliy. Yet not actually knowing who he really was she was overwhelmed with being with him. And really who would you choose to fallow. The ONLY fatherly figure after your own father has died or a childhood lover who she hadn't seen in years. Don't get me wrong but really she had a clear solid reason to follow the Phantom down to his layer and act all ditzy like ^o^ ~Keiatra~
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Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:55 pm
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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:47 am
Well, after just having finished reading Phantom by Susan Kay, I have come to the conclusion that yes, she did love both Raoul and Erik...
...for a time, at least. I think that, in the period in which she resided with Erik, was pretty much terrified out of her mind of both the darkness, the person she loved(Erik), and the possibility of living in a place that resembled a tomb.
Also, I think that she sort of fell out of love with Raoul...and, as the fop concludes, she always loved Erik more than she loved him...that, plus the fact that their child resembled neither him nor Christine...but someone in a picture he had kept secret.
The picture was of Erik, my friends...and that is why I believe that Christine, in the end, really only loved Erik...and as she said, she was just too afraid to cross the final threshold...
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Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:06 am
Yes, I do believe that Novel!Christine loved Erik. Look at the chapter of the Apollo's Lyre. O_o She said that she couldn't flee that night and -HAD- to sing the next, just one last time, for Erik, because if she didn't, she would cause him "infinite pain."
Why would you care about causing a man infinite pain that's scared you and hurt you and lied to you and cheated you, etc,e tc, etc... if you don't love him?
Also, she said that she could not go back, because Erik would lament and say he loves her and cry.
And she said that she could not bear to see his tears.
Hmm.... interesting.
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:45 pm
I think she loved him in the book. But in the movie loved Raoul more.
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Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:33 am
christine has a rare talent for making guys fall in love with her with out either saying the words "i love you to either of them" ex: in the say you love me song she never says i love you once to raul while raoul profeses his love perfusely to her also in the down once more song she doesn't excactly say yes i'll marry you it's kinda up for interprentation whether she's a tease or just in love with two men think about it. it's pssible
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Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:49 pm
Deadly Lullaby Ivien you hold logic beyong your years... either that or your one true phan whee 3nodding
I do approve and accept your logic, but there is another alternation that she could have chosen.. NEITHER!!! Thats always a possibility!
but one thing that pisses me off.... I don't know if it counts in just the movie, or everything else but this drove me CRRRAAAAZZZYYY *doesn't want to quote the rant...* ^^; Anyways...it says in the book(s) that he spoke to her as Erik in a different way than he spoke as the Angel of Music...that, and Christine associated the Angel's voice(until she found out it was Erik) with a beautiful being...not a repulsive creature that terrified her...
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Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:59 pm
I think she loved him in a way but was more just drawn to him for different reasons...his obsessive love for her, the fact that he took her under his wing and taught her, etc...but of course with him going on killing sprees and such she was scared to death of him...
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Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:36 pm
I think part of her did, as raoul said in the book "love of the most exquistite kind."
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Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:45 am
First of all, I have to say that SK's novel does not count as a basis for evidence as it is glorified phanphic -- only Kay was published while the rest of us flounder about on personal websites and fanfiction.net. SK's novel is phanphic, plain and simple.
I'm going to keep this terribly short, but according to the novel, no. I don't think she loved him romantically per say, if you can take what she says to Raoul on the roof as truth, the bit where she expresses her horror and revulsion of Erik. Also, her willingness to leave the Opera - nay, telling Raoul he was to take her away - is not indicative of undying, bridled passion to fornicate with Erik in the cellars or whatever else. Her fear and aversion to Erik is something to take into consideration, I think, especially as we all know that she stayed with Raoul after the events. Christine did not love Erik romantically, as Utakan put so wonderfully.
However, I do believe that her reluctance to leave Erik without saying goodbye and her treatment of him in the final lair scene of the book is also very indicative of a friendship, fondness, or pity, even. She did not absolutely hate him - though she had every right to - but did feel a marginal bit of affection for him; not enough to eclipse her love for Raoul.
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Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:03 pm
I agree with everything fuokohopin hath said. Also... Quote: Also, her willingness to leave the Opera - nay, telling Raoul he was to take her away - is not indicative of undying, bridled passion to fornicate with Erik in the cellars or whatever else. rofl rofl rofl To quote someone on another board, 'wordy mcword!'. That's going on my list of favorite quotes, for sure. *worships fuoko*
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