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 Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:55 am
Squireof the son Trix Starlight Squireof the son Trix Starlight Priestley To paraphrase, what about "the curses of physical death, aging, toiling and sin were put upon Adam and Eve and was passed by their offspring as a result" is difficult to understand?
It's like a son or daughter inheriting a disease from one of their parents and then that son or daughter asking his/her parent "why did you give me this disease?" It's not the parents' fault, nor is it the child's fault, it's the circumstances in which the family find themselves. Jesus said the God does not punish children for the sins of their parents. Now he doesn't. Before Jesus, He did. He killed a whole entire family, cause ONE guy stole a few things (I think a vase, some coins, and a few other things). And that's OK? I don't know. I have to reread it, and figure out all the details. I believe if God did it, then yes. No matter how unfair from our eyes. Hmmmm...I understand you haven't studied this particular issue, but non the less, how do you figure that? I mean...why would we see it as wrong?
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Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:54 pm
Trix Starlight Squireof the son Trix Starlight Squireof the son Trix Starlight Priestley To paraphrase, what about "the curses of physical death, aging, toiling and sin were put upon Adam and Eve and was passed by their offspring as a result" is difficult to understand?
It's like a son or daughter inheriting a disease from one of their parents and then that son or daughter asking his/her parent "why did you give me this disease?" It's not the parents' fault, nor is it the child's fault, it's the circumstances in which the family find themselves. Jesus said the God does not punish children for the sins of their parents. Now he doesn't. Before Jesus, He did. He killed a whole entire family, cause ONE guy stole a few things (I think a vase, some coins, and a few other things). And that's OK? I don't know. I have to reread it, and figure out all the details. I believe if God did it, then yes. No matter how unfair from our eyes. Hmmmm...I understand you haven't studied this particular issue, but non the less, how do you figure that? I mean...why would we see it as wrong? Ah, she poses yet another good question! 3nodding
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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:37 am
Lethkhar Priestley Lethkhar Priestley Trix Starlight Wait, you didn't answer that, not properly. Why should we be punished for something Adam and Eve did? I'm not denying I've sinned, but nothing truly terrible. I'm sorry for all I've done wrong, but do I honestly deserve to go to hell for it? OK, so I'm Christian, but what if I wasn't? Most people are their religion because they were born into it, so will God honestly send a Muslim child to hell because they were born into a Muslim family?
However, look at it this way: The circumstances into which you were born were not under your control nor did you have any choice in the matter. People today are living with the consequences of decisions made by people who came before them because of the nature of the world in which we live: linear, cause and effect, action and reaction.
Everything was fine between God and man before the fall. God promised that man would die if he ate from the tree of good and evil. As sure as His word, God kept that promise for all mankind, saying further that man had to work the ground to survive and would return to the ground of which he was made. Sure, God could have wiped us out if He wanted but it's obvious that there's a lesson which must be learnt and a responsibility that must be shared by all mankind, from the first to the last. Nevertheless, God will not allow the world with all its imperfections to exist forever. Even scienctific calculations predict the Earth's destruction by fire (that is, solar expansion) an inevitability, even if it's predicted to be far in the future. Our bodies are also temporary, be it on a far shorter scale.
If our bodies return to dust in the ground and the Earth is destroyed, what of our souls? That is the purpose of the resurrection and the judgment.I don't think you answered her question... neutral
It's like a son or daughter inheriting a disease from one of their parents and then that son or daughter asking his/her parent "why did you give me this disease?" It's not the parents' fault, nor is it the child's fault, it's the circumstances in which the family find themselves.And the question is why the "disease" is inheritable if it is a punishment for the sins of only two people. You did not answer the question. And you didn't really answer the second part concerning other religions, either. You just rambled about Eden and Judgement Day.
I've already said that the curse was put on the world and mankind for the duration, not just on Adam and Eve's life for their duration. Perhaps I did not make that clear enough for you. As the first two of God-created humanity, Adam and Eve acted on behalf of mankind, not just themselves. Any offspring of theirs would be aware of good and of evil, just as they were, so why should the punishment only apply to Adam and Eve?
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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:46 am
Lethkhar masumi5 Lethkhar Priestley Lethkhar GuardianAngel44 He gave us a choice to disobey him or not. If he hadn't, and we had to worship God, then our love for him wouldn't mean very much. It doesn't really mean very much now, does it? "LOVE ME OR BURN IN HELL!!! twisted " "Okay! Okay! crying "
If you don't believe the human soul is everlasting, there's little point in trying to get you to make sense of the fact that God wants to make a huge bonfire out of the spoiled creation and start afresh. The only reason He hasn't done so is because He's pushing back the time out of hope for humanity.So you think I'm "spoiled creation"? You know, it may be that mindset that makes it impossible for us to see each other eye-to-eye. How do you "love" "spoiled creation"? Kinda like how your parents love you, even though you've broken their rules, and disobeyed them. I've disobeyed my parents before. I actually do it alot sweatdrop . And they still love me. And have your parents ever called you "spoiled creation"? Mine haven't...
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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:45 am
Priestley Lethkhar Priestley Lethkhar Priestley To answer your question about religions, circumstances and such, Jesus said that all things will be forgiven men except blasfamy against the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:28-29).
However, look at it this way: The circumstances into which you were born were not under your control nor did you have any choice in the matter. People today are living with the consequences of decisions made by people who came before them because of the nature of the world in which we live: linear, cause and effect, action and reaction.
Everything was fine between God and man before the fall. God promised that man would die if he ate from the tree of good and evil. As sure as His word, God kept that promise for all mankind, saying further that man had to work the ground to survive and would return to the ground of which he was made. Sure, God could have wiped us out if He wanted but it's obvious that there's a lesson which must be learnt and a responsibility that must be shared by all mankind, from the first to the last. Nevertheless, God will not allow the world with all its imperfections to exist forever. Even scienctific calculations predict the Earth's destruction by fire (that is, solar expansion) an inevitability, even if it's predicted to be far in the future. Our bodies are also temporary, be it on a far shorter scale.
If our bodies return to dust in the ground and the Earth is destroyed, what of our souls? That is the purpose of the resurrection and the judgment. I don't think you answered her question... neutral
It's like a son or daughter inheriting a disease from one of their parents and then that son or daughter asking his/her parent "why did you give me this disease?" It's not the parents' fault, nor is it the child's fault, it's the circumstances in which the family find themselves.And the question is why the "disease" is inheritable if it is a punishment for the sins of only two people. You did not answer the question. And you didn't really answer the second part concerning other religions, either. You just rambled about Eden and Judgement Day.
I've already said that the curse was put on the world and mankind for the duration, not just on Adam and Eve's life for their duration. Perhaps I did not make that clear enough for you. As the first two of God-created humanity, Adam and Eve acted on behalf of mankind, not just themselves. Any offspring of theirs would be aware of good and of evil, just as they were, so why should the punishment only apply to Adam and Eve?You quoted me a Bible reference telling me what will and does happen, and I understand that. I asked you why it would happen like that. You have yet to quote me a Bible reference as to why it is like this. Anyway, surely blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would mean...well, I don't wanna say it, but saying it was *insert really rude thing here* rather than just not beliveing in it. OK, so lets say I'm a little kid in a school playground, and some kid comes up to me andd says "Do you want to learn a swear word?" If I say yes, it's as much my fault as his, but if I say no, and he tells me anyway, it's not my fault. How could Adam and Eve act on behalf of what was then a nin-existant human race, except for themselves? And just because a person knows about good and evil, why should they be punished for it? It's not something they can help.
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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:26 am
Trix Starlight Priestley Lethkhar Priestley Lethkhar I don't think you answered her question... neutral
It's like a son or daughter inheriting a disease from one of their parents and then that son or daughter asking his/her parent "why did you give me this disease?" It's not the parents' fault, nor is it the child's fault, it's the circumstances in which the family find themselves.And the question is why the "disease" is inheritable if it is a punishment for the sins of only two people. You did not answer the question. And you didn't really answer the second part concerning other religions, either. You just rambled about Eden and Judgement Day.
I've already said that the curse was put on the world and mankind for the duration, not just on Adam and Eve's life for their duration. Perhaps I did not make that clear enough for you. As the first two of God-created humanity, Adam and Eve acted on behalf of mankind, not just themselves. Any offspring of theirs would be aware of good and of evil, just as they were, so why should the punishment only apply to Adam and Eve?You quoted me a Bible reference telling me what will and does happen, and I understand that. I asked you why it would happen like that. You have yet to quote me a Bible reference as to why it is like this. Anyway, surely blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would mean...well, I don't wanna say it, but saying it was *insert really rude thing here* rather than just not beliveing in it.
I take blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as meaning the absolute denial of its existence to the point of continual rebellion.Trix Starlight OK, so lets say I'm a little kid in a school playground, and some kid comes up to me andd says "Do you want to learn a swear word?" If I say yes, it's as much my fault as his, but if I say no, and he tells me anyway, it's not my fault. How could Adam and Eve act on behalf of what was then a nin-existant human race, except for themselves? And just because a person knows about good and evil, why should they be punished for it? It's not something they can help.
Talk about confusing. confused
I'll try and clear up a few things. All I can think of when it comes to reasoning why God put that tree in the Garden was that He was testing Adam and Eve's trust/loyalty/something. God forewarned them both of the outcome if they were to eat of the fruit, so that should have been deterrent enough. The serpent lied to them, saying that not only would they live as a result of eating it but that God was denying them it because they would become like Him. The serpent did not force-feed them the fruit: they chose to disobey God by eating it. As a result, they began to age and die. Not only did they disobey God but now they had become aware of their disobedience and tried to hide it from Him. If they stayed in the Garden, they'd have access to the tree of life and would be able to live forever disobeying God as and when they chose to do so. God could have destroyed them and started again, but He chose to let them learn their lesson by turfing them out of the paradise environment where all their needs were met and into an environment where they had to work hard to stay alive and reproduce to keep the human race going. Not only that, but in their reproduction they carried on teaching what they knew to their children so their children also knew good and evil and could choose to do either. It's not a case of children being punished for their parents' mistakes, it's a case of their parents' passing on this corrupt knowledge. Why should their offspring who do both good and evil live forever and only their parents die?
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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:19 pm
Priestley Lethkhar Priestley Lethkhar Priestley To answer your question about religions, circumstances and such, Jesus said that all things will be forgiven men except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:28-29).
However, look at it this way: The circumstances into which you were born were not under your control nor did you have any choice in the matter. People today are living with the consequences of decisions made by people who came before them because of the nature of the world in which we live: linear, cause and effect, action and reaction.
Everything was fine between God and man before the fall. God promised that man would die if he ate from the tree of good and evil. As sure as His word, God kept that promise for all mankind, saying further that man had to work the ground to survive and would return to the ground of which he was made. Sure, God could have wiped us out if He wanted but it's obvious that there's a lesson which must be learnt and a responsibility that must be shared by all mankind, from the first to the last. Nevertheless, God will not allow the world with all its imperfections to exist forever. Even scienctific calculations predict the Earth's destruction by fire (that is, solar expansion) an inevitability, even if it's predicted to be far in the future. Our bodies are also temporary, be it on a far shorter scale.
If our bodies return to dust in the ground and the Earth is destroyed, what of our souls? That is the purpose of the resurrection and the judgment. I don't think you answered her question... neutral
It's like a son or daughter inheriting a disease from one of their parents and then that son or daughter asking his/her parent "why did you give me this disease?" It's not the parents' fault, nor is it the child's fault, it's the circumstances in which the family find themselves.And the question is why the "disease" is inheritable if it is a punishment for the sins of only two people. You did not answer the question. And you didn't really answer the second part concerning other religions, either. You just rambled about Eden and Judgement Day. I don't understand how that answered the question. She asked you to explain why a person born in circumstances that make it almost completely impossible to be forgiven would burn in Hell, and you answered with, "Jesus said that all things will be forgiven men except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:28-29)." Does that mean that people born in those circumstances are forgiven? Quote: I've already said that the curse was put on the world and mankind for the duration, not just on Adam and Eve's life for their duration. Perhaps I did not make that clear enough for you. As the first two of God-created humanity, Adam and Eve acted on behalf of mankind, not just themselves. Any offspring of theirs would be aware of good and of evil, just as they were, so why should the punishment only apply to Adam and Eve? Because Adam and Eve were the only ones who committed the crime! stressed
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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:24 pm
Priestley Lethkhar masumi5 Lethkhar Priestley Actually, the destruction of earth was a guaranteed inevitability from the moment God cursed it, and He cursed it from the moment Adam and Eve disobeyed.
If you don't believe the human soul is everlasting, there's little point in trying to get you to make sense of the fact that God wants to make a huge bonfire out of the spoiled creation and start afresh. The only reason He hasn't done so is because He's pushing back the time out of hope for humanity. So you think I'm "spoiled creation"? You know, it may be that mindset that makes it impossible for us to see each other eye-to-eye. How do you "love" "spoiled creation"? Kinda like how your parents love you, even though you've broken their rules, and disobeyed them. I've disobeyed my parents before. I actually do it alot sweatdrop . And they still love me. And have your parents ever called you "spoiled creation"? Mine haven't... I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about.
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:14 am
Priestley Trix Starlight Priestley Lethkhar Priestley To paraphrase, what about "the curses of physical death, aging, toiling and sin were put upon Adam and Eve and was passed by their offspring as a result" is difficult to understand?
It's like a son or daughter inheriting a disease from one of their parents and then that son or daughter asking his/her parent "why did you give me this disease?" It's not the parents' fault, nor is it the child's fault, it's the circumstances in which the family find themselves. And the question is why the "disease" is inheritable if it is a punishment for the sins of only two people. You did not answer the question. And you didn't really answer the second part concerning other religions, either. You just rambled about Eden and Judgement Day.
I've already said that the curse was put on the world and mankind for the duration, not just on Adam and Eve's life for their duration. Perhaps I did not make that clear enough for you. As the first two of God-created humanity, Adam and Eve acted on behalf of mankind, not just themselves. Any offspring of theirs would be aware of good and of evil, just as they were, so why should the punishment only apply to Adam and Eve?You quoted me a Bible reference telling me what will and does happen, and I understand that. I asked you why it would happen like that. You have yet to quote me a Bible reference as to why it is like this. Anyway, surely blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would mean...well, I don't wanna say it, but saying it was *insert really rude thing here* rather than just not beliveing in it.
I take blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as meaning the absolute denial of its existence to the point of continual rebellion.Trix Starlight OK, so lets say I'm a little kid in a school playground, and some kid comes up to me andd says "Do you want to learn a swear word?" If I say yes, it's as much my fault as his, but if I say no, and he tells me anyway, it's not my fault. How could Adam and Eve act on behalf of what was then a nin-existant human race, except for themselves? And just because a person knows about good and evil, why should they be punished for it? It's not something they can help.
Talk about confusing. confused
I'll try and clear up a few things. All I can think of when it comes to reasoning why God put that tree in the Garden was that He was testing Adam and Eve's trust/loyalty/something. God forewarned them both of the outcome if they were to eat of the fruit, so that should have been deterrent enough. The serpent lied to them, saying that not only would they live as a result of eating it but that God was denying them it because they would become like Him. The serpent did not force-feed them the fruit: they chose to disobey God by eating it. As a result, they began to age and die. Not only did they disobey God but now they had become aware of their disobedience and tried to hide it from Him. If they stayed in the Garden, they'd have access to the tree of life and would be able to live forever disobeying God as and when they chose to do so. God could have destroyed them and started again, but He chose to let them learn their lesson by turfing them out of the paradise environment where all their needs were met and into an environment where they had to work hard to stay alive and reproduce to keep the human race going. Not only that, but in their reproduction they carried on teaching what they knew to their children so their children also knew good and evil and could choose to do either. It's not a case of children being punished for their parents' mistakes, it's a case of their parents' passing on this corrupt knowledge. Why should their offspring who do both good and evil live forever and only their parents die?Ignore my example if it's confusing. Look, I know I'm a screwed up creature. We all are. But I was born this way. I try to do God's bidding and do good. If someone is born deformed, then is it right for tha person to be bullied for it? Of course not. Our souls are deformed, but how is it right for us to be punished by default? If we act on the evil within us, yes, but doesn't it make more sense for us to start on a neutral plain with God, and then see how our life pans out, instead of starting as "you're going to hell" and having to earn back the right to go to heaven because of sins may commit in the future, but may not? Priestley Lethkhar masumi5 Lethkhar Priestley Actually, the destruction of earth was a guaranteed inevitability from the moment God cursed it, and He cursed it from the moment Adam and Eve disobeyed.
If you don't believe the human soul is everlasting, there's little point in trying to get you to make sense of the fact that God wants to make a huge bonfire out of the spoiled creation and start afresh. The only reason He hasn't done so is because He's pushing back the time out of hope for humanity. So you think I'm "spoiled creation"? You know, it may be that mindset that makes it impossible for us to see each other eye-to-eye. How do you "love" "spoiled creation"? Kinda like how your parents love you, even though you've broken their rules, and disobeyed them. I've disobeyed my parents before. I actually do it alot sweatdrop . And they still love me. And have your parents ever called you "spoiled creation"? Mine haven't... I think I would rather be destroid than burn in hell for all eternity.
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:33 pm
Trix Starlight Look, I know I'm a screwed up creature. We all are. But I was born this way. I try to do God's bidding and do good. If someone is born deformed, then is it right for tha person to be bullied for it? Of course not. Our souls are deformed, but how is it right for us to be punished by default? If we act on the evil within us, yes, but doesn't it make more sense for us to start on a neutral plain with God, and then see how our life pans out, instead of starting as "you're going to hell" and having to earn back the right to go to heaven because of sins you may commit in the future, but may not? How is it right for us to be seperated from God by default? Well, let's think here... Gah, this is hard work! I should just go do something else, because I know this stuff isn't worth it anymore. Forget this shamboozle, I seperate myself from it by my choice! mrgreen *comes back later to a feast* What the... I want some! Hey, what's this bodyguard doing here? Get off me! BRUTALITY! They're not letting me in to the feast! I was here earlier, honest! *is picked up by bodyguard* GAAAAAAAH!!!! *gets thrown into the dumpster* Sheesh, some people are so fickle! How could I help myself from leaving earlier, the place was so boring! How can't I get the chance to get back in? It makes much more sense for us to start on a neutral plain with God. In fact, the choice is already here.
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Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:00 pm
grounder91 Trix Starlight Look, I know I'm a screwed up creature. We all are. But I was born this way. I try to do God's bidding and do good. If someone is born deformed, then is it right for tha person to be bullied for it? Of course not. Our souls are deformed, but how is it right for us to be punished by default? If we act on the evil within us, yes, but doesn't it make more sense for us to start on a neutral plain with God, and then see how our life pans out, instead of starting as "you're going to hell" and having to earn back the right to go to heaven because of sins you may commit in the future, but may not? How is it right for us to be seperated from God by default? Well, let's think here... Gah, this is hard work! I should just go do something else, because I know this stuff isn't worth it anymore. Forget this shamboozle, I seperate myself from it by my choice! mrgreen *comes back later to a feast* What the... I want some! Hey, what's this bodyguard doing here? Get off me! BRUTALITY! They're not letting me in to the feast! I was here earlier, honest! *is picked up by bodyguard* GAAAAAAAH!!!! *gets thrown into the dumpster* Sheesh, some people are so fickle! How could I help myself from leaving earlier, the place was so boring! How can't I get the chance to get back in? It makes much more sense for us to start on a neutral plain with God. In fact, the choice is already here. And you don't see a problem with someone being thrown into a dumpster just because they decided they wanted to come back to a party? Anyway, I believe it's more like this: "Lalalalalala! Oh look, a feast! That looks yummy. I know that you and I don't know each other very well, but could you spare some food, please? I mean, you have so much... Um, what are you doing? Ouch! Hey!-I was just aski-OW! Ooph, ugh, ow, eeh, AY!, ouch! *Lies in a dumpster beaten and mangled* What the Hell did I do?" Since we start, by default, separated from God, then we would never have started out at the party in the first place.
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:33 pm
Okay, I'm gonna go back to the argument from the very start. The way my new study Bible explains it is this: God wanted us to have the choice to follow Him from the very beginning. It was clear that evil was already in existence before Adam, as there was a tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden before Adam was even created. So that means evil was a choice, sin was a choice we (Adam) could choose.
If there is no alternative, how can you exercise your right to choose?
"Well, you can choose to follow me in this beautiful Garden where I will provide for and sustain you and you will have everything you absolutely ever need, plus a beautiful wife who loves you or .... oh wait, that's the only option, never mind." When you only have one option then there is no choice. God had to make it so that He was proving to us from the beginning that He wanted us to choose Him, rather than blindly follow because we had no other choice. In order to do this, He put two trees in the center of the Garden that Adam and Eve could eat from, even though God had said not to. That was the first choice to either sin or not sin, and they clearly chose to sin. Because they are the parents of humanity, they passed on every part of them to their children, not only their physical looks, but the desire to sin and choose in favor of ourselves, rather than God. Just as they were punished for their sin and had to make atonement for it through sacrifices, the same applies to us. Someone has to pay for choosing against God. For us, Jesus pays.
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:33 pm
Fushigi na Butterfly Okay, I'm gonna go back to the argument from the very start. The way my new study Bible explains it is this: God wanted us to have the choice to follow Him from the very beginning. It was clear that evil was already in existence before Adam, as there was a tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden before Adam was even created. So that means evil was a choice, sin was a choice we (Adam) could choose.
If there is no alternative, how can you exercise your right to choose?
"Well, you can choose to follow me in this beautiful Garden where I will provide for and sustain you and you will have everything you absolutely ever need, plus a beautiful wife who loves you or .... oh wait, that's the only option, never mind." When you only have one option then there is no choice. God had to make it so that He was proving to us from the beginning that He wanted us to choose Him, rather than blindly follow because we had no other choice. In order to do this, He put two trees in the center of the Garden that Adam and Eve could eat from, even though God had said not to. That was the first choice to either sin or not sin, and they clearly chose to sin. Because they are the parents of humanity, they passed on every part of them to their children, not only their physical looks, but the desire to sin and choose in favor of ourselves, rather than God. Just as they were punished for their sin and had to make atonement for it through sacrifices, the same applies to us. Someone has to pay for choosing against God. For us, Jesus pays. What I don't understand is why pain and misery must follow with not following God. That is to say: Why does God torture us if we "choose" (And that's still debatable) not to follow Him? Or better yet: Why does God torture people who never really have much of a choice?
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Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:21 pm
Why do people die if they get hit by a tractor trailer?
God is everything good; that's just a fact. To stray away from Him is to venture away from anything good. The opposite of anything good is everything bad. It's like walking on a beam suspended over lava. Why are you going to burn and die if you stray from the beam? Because the beam is only in one place and it is the only thing keeping you from falling in the lava. God didn't make it that way, that's just how it is. When you walk away from a fire in the middle of Antarctica you're going to get cold. The fire didn't make it that way, that's just the way things are.
And people always have a choice, and as Christians, it is our responsibility to make sure people have and use that choice. It's slow going, but I'd like to think we're all doing the best we can.
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:11 pm
Fushigi na Butterfly Why do people die if they get hit by a tractor trailer?
God is everything good; that's just a fact. To stray away from Him is to venture away from anything good. The opposite of anything good is everything bad. It's like walking on a beam suspended over lava. Why are you going to burn and die if you stray from the beam? Because the beam is only in one place and it is the only thing keeping you from falling in the lava. God didn't make it that way, that's just how it is. When you walk away from a fire in the middle of Antarctica you're going to get cold. The fire didn't make it that way, that's just the way things are.
And people always have a choice, and as Christians, it is our responsibility to make sure people have and use that choice. It's slow going, but I'd like to think we're all doing the best we can. Why doesn't God change it? If I were omnipotent, I'm pretty sure one of the first things I would do would be to get rid of the lava or to make all of Antarctica warm enough to live in.
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