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 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:26 pm
While I do have an opinion on this matter, I'm not sure that this guild is the right place to be arguing about religion? Just a thought... sweatdrop
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:33 pm
I'm not arguing on religion. I am arguing that the Golden Compass is not an appropriate material. The reason I came to that is because you all brought it up. But you all kept insisting that this is some kind of attack on a religion when it is not.
And I do know. There is no belief behind it. I'm beyond that. Don't believe me? To bad. I can't prove it to you. No more than you can prove to me that salt exists if I don't believe in it.
And by the way, why would I spend hours upon hours reading and writing fan fiction on Dr. Who if I'm to become one of those freeks? Ceribri supports what I've been told on this matter. My actions are based on supported facts. Not rumors.
Remember, this is a discussion on what kind of message is this man making. And you gotta give me credit for having the guts to express my feelings. People generally stay away from this sort of thing because it bothers them. But one needs to be able to speak up on what they believe and not be afraid of what others would say to you on it.
This may be the only time I would express this sort of thing. I'm not going to go hammering down on every movie or TV show that I feel is inappropriate. And one other thing. The reason you have a problem about me doing a "Flaming" thing. It's because of it's religious connections.
Come on, if this were a "I really hated this book because the plot made no sense" there wouldn't be this kind of reaction.
Every so often one has to sit back and think about what they believe. In this way, you would know what to say when the need comes.
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:22 pm
Okay, to clear up a few things mentioned thus far:
First off. This is not an attack on religion. This is a debate or argument on one book and the philosophies behind it that deem it controversial.
The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe is promoted as a Christian movie simply because the CS Lewis (the author) was a Christian, and wrote it purposely as a Christian allegory. The meaning is not hidden because the author did not write it to hide it. He wrote it to put it out where it could be seen and have some impact on the reader. It was toned down in the movie but only to an extent.
True, some movies don't have any hidden meaning, but movies based on literary works generally do, simply because the books have meanings behind them.Quote: The series' author, Philip Pullman, is an avowed atheist who has averred that "I don't profess any religion; I don't think it's possible that there is a God; I have the greatest difficulty in understanding what is meant by the words 'spiritual' or 'spirituality.'" Quote: Pullman has been compared so many times with Tolkien and Lewis, it galls him. "Despite the armoured bears and the angels, I don't think I'm writing fantasy," he says. "I think I'm writing realism. My books are psychologically real."
You can also say that the 'God figure' in the books is different than God. In the books, the God figure is old and incapable of stopping evil from happening, hence, he is able to be killed.
The one true God is not only ageless, but all-powerful and all-knowing. He cannot be killed. If you apply the last quote to what I am saying, the books (and Pullman) are saying that God can be defeated. The more impressionable minds of youth and children can believe in what books say as easily as they believe in Santa or the tooth fairy.
I don't think there would be so much problem if it weren't depicted as a children's novel. Sure, there will still be controversy, there is always controversy when it is a matter of religion. However, if it was just adults reading and discussing the series, the matter would be much more civil. By the time you are an adult, you generally have a particular belief to adhere to. You won't be shaken up or made uncomfortable if you are strong in them. Because these books are not for kids. Really, I had problems reading them as a 13 year old and my vocabulary and comprehension has been nicely above the normal since preschool. The religious backgrounds in this book say that the church is evil and manipulative, and we should get away from them. The issues in the books as well as the connotations behind them are complicated. The Creation account is twisted around in the books as Satan is depicted as a 'bringer of light', as giving humans 'true freedom'. It is very much trying to cause the readers to question their moral compass, or at the very least their sense of what is 'good' and 'evil'.
Article
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:39 pm
And by the way, as a Mod I can move this topic if I think it necessary. We currently don't have a 'Chatterbox', so everything has to go in the only forum available.
We aren't spamming, we've got a poll, and as long as this doesn't turn into Flame Wars (meaning please keep it civil) then there is no problem that I see.
The only problem that we might run into is that if you aren't at the least being reasonable about other opinions or ignoring what is posted then we'll end up arguing about it. I'm not saying this is happening right now, I'm just saying we all should keep an open mind about it.
If anyone does have problems in this thread, please PM me about it and I'll help settle disputes fairly.
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:02 pm
lupine_eyes No one truly "knows". We beleive. Thats completely different.
You are right that no-one truly knows. Indeed, that is what we call faith. Belief in the unknown. Trusting without seeing.
lupine_eyes You could be wrong, hell, I could be completely wrong. No one really knows until we die, and by then it doesn't matter anymore. Yes, we both could be completely wrong in our beliefs. However, if there is historical and scientific proof that our belief can be backed on, well, we've got a bit more reason to believe. And when we die, that's when it matters even more. Because you see, if I'm right and there is a God and there is a heaven and hell, then I know where I'm headed. And if I'm wrong, then life is over and there's nothing. I'd much rather believe in an omipotent Creator who gives us a choice to where we end in eternity. Quote: And yes, this has absolutly nothing to do with Doctor Who, so mayhap you should save the flaming of works of literary merit and the foisting of Christianity for other guilds, lest you start preaching that the Doctor is somehow involved in a plot to force children to stray from "the right path." This has nothing to do with Doctor Who? You are right that the discussion on The Golden Compass has nothing to do with Doctor Who, but this rant, or argument, or whatever it is we are holding about religion has quite a lot. I've heard the Doctor (and others) call humas "apes". I've heard it said that the human race "evolves". I'm not even going to bother getting into the two-part episode that deals with the Devil. That is very much dealing with beliefs and religion. However, it barely skims across the subject and presents many beliefs, not just one.
But I digress. This thread is not about Doctor Who. But I see no problem in the existence of it in this guild. By the way, you'll find it interesting that at least one other guild that I am in has a thread quite similar to this. The only difference is that the people there seem to be more open to hearing more than one side to the story.
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:08 pm
Technically, you should think people have enough sense to seperate reality from fiction. If they really believe, shouldn't they be able to understand not to become serial killers or whatever and just go on with their happy Christian lives? I'm not trying to flame anyone, I'm just saying, if it was written for entertainment, then that's just what it is; entertainment. Technically, Doctor Who challenges Christianity, doesn't it? No one here has a problem with that, and if you don't like what someone else wrote, just don't read it. (By the way, I'm not a religion or an atheist, I'm what you'd call open-minded)
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:42 pm
Emilio L. Weasley Technically, you should think people have enough sense to seperate reality from fiction. If they really believe, shouldn't they be able to understand not to become serial killers or whatever and just go on with their happy Christian lives? I'm not trying to flame anyone, I'm just saying, if it was written for entertainment, then that's just what it is; entertainment. Technically, Doctor Who challenges Christianity, doesn't it? No one here has a problem with that, and if you don't like what someone else wrote, just don't read it. (By the way, I'm not a religion or an atheist, I'm what you'd call open-minded) Doctor Who doesn't challenge much, though.... it rather accepts other beliefs and incorporates them into plots when necessary.
And Doctor Who is entertainment.. The Golden Compass was written for entertainment, I guess you could say, but also against religion. That's the whole theme, plot, whatever else of the book, fighting God/the church/etc.
And the easiest way to get someone to at least accept some other opinion or worldview is through fiction. They see the cool-looking movie, get interested, read the books, and it really can affect your way of thinking. And it's all still thought of as just 'harmless fiction'. The Christians who see what it is teaching are against it because they don't want younger kids who think of it as harmless to get the wrong impressions early on in life.
If you have ever seen a little kid watch a fairytale or read a kid story, then say "I wanna be so-and-so" or "I wanna be a princess" or "I wish I could do that"....my little sister watched the first Harry Potter when she was five and then for the rest of the day went around 'casting spells' on stuff in the house with a stick and giving names to things. It's not real but they percieve it as reality. And she loves going to church and Sunday School every week as well. It's just she couldn't determine reality from fiction yet. They can't grasp the concepts. If someone tells them that there are aliens on Mars, they'll easily believe you.
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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:16 am
Okay, I sent Muskratio a PM about whether or not this forum should be here. She gave us the all-clear, so don't worry about that anymore!
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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:47 am
Ceribri Emilio L. Weasley Technically, you should think people have enough sense to seperate reality from fiction. If they really believe, shouldn't they be able to understand not to become serial killers or whatever and just go on with their happy Christian lives? I'm not trying to flame anyone, I'm just saying, if it was written for entertainment, then that's just what it is; entertainment. Technically, Doctor Who challenges Christianity, doesn't it? No one here has a problem with that, and if you don't like what someone else wrote, just don't read it. (By the way, I'm not a religion or an atheist, I'm what you'd call open-minded) Doctor Who doesn't challenge much, though.... it rather accepts other beliefs and incorporates them into plots when necessary.
And Doctor Who is entertainment.. The Golden Compass was written for entertainment, I guess you could say, but also against religion. That's the whole theme, plot, whatever else of the book, fighting God/the church/etc.
And the easiest way to get someone to at least accept some other opinion or worldview is through fiction. They see the cool-looking movie, get interested, read the books, and it really can affect your way of thinking. And it's all still thought of as just 'harmless fiction'. The Christians who see what it is teaching are against it because they don't want younger kids who think of it as harmless to get the wrong impressions early on in life.
If you have ever seen a little kid watch a fairytale or read a kid story, then say "I wanna be so-and-so" or "I wanna be a princess" or "I wish I could do that"....my little sister watched the first Harry Potter when she was five and then for the rest of the day went around 'casting spells' on stuff in the house with a stick and giving names to things. It's not real but they percieve it as reality. And she loves going to church and Sunday School every week as well. It's just she couldn't determine reality from fiction yet. They can't grasp the concepts. If someone tells them that there are aliens on Mars, they'll easily believe you. First, I want to thank you for sending a PM to Musk about the okayness of this thread...I should have thought of that. Now, personally, I think that children shouldn't be exposed to religion. I think that exposure to any and all religions should wait until they're old enough to think about them and draw their own conclusions. If they absolutely must be exposed, then expose them evenly. Don't give them only one point of view. This leads to the close mindedness that causes silly things like the Crusades, bombing abortion centers, and picketing soldiers funerals. But that's more for the 6 and under age range than anything, and I may have gone on a bit of a ramble. Hang on... Oh, right! Imagination. All props to your sister and her wonderful imagination. I think there's a difference between knowing reality from fantasy (i.e. knowing that, while Superman may be able to fly, you cannot jump off the roof expecting the same) and having a healthy imagination (playing pretend) are vastly different. And before anyone's all "YOU HATE CHRISTIANS!" or "YOU THINK ALL CHRISTIANS ARE CRAZY!!!eleventY~!", I don't. I hate zealots. And, yes, there are zealots in Christianity. As there are in Muslim sects. And possibly in Buddhism. Hee. Can you picture a zealous Buddhist monk? That'd be weird.
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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:01 am
Ceribri Doctor Who doesn't challenge much, though.... it rather accepts other beliefs and incorporates them into plots when necessary.
And Doctor Who is entertainment.. The Golden Compass was written for entertainment, I guess you could say, but also against religion. That's the whole theme, plot, whatever else of the book, fighting God/the church/etc.
And the easiest way to get someone to at least accept some other opinion or worldview is through fiction. They see the cool-looking movie, get interested, read the books, and it really can affect your way of thinking. And it's all still thought of as just 'harmless fiction'. The Christians who see what it is teaching are against it because they don't want younger kids who think of it as harmless to get the wrong impressions early on in life.
Don't you think it should be encouraged to explore different opinions, though? That way you become informed enough to actually decide what you think is right and wrong, and are not confined to the opinions your parents impose on you. Like prejudice, religious beliefs are often passed on from your immediate family. (Note: I am NOT equating religion with prejudice; it was just the first example I thought of.) I read the trilogy when I was eight or nine and thought them enjoyable; I managed, however, to completely miss any symbolism in them. I expect that if I read them again, which I am going to do as soon as I actually find them, I would find them quite different to what I remember. I don't think it's as much of the problem that younger children are going to get 'the wrong impressions'; remember, also, that the books probably won't appeal to many of them due to their complexity. I've just found The Subtle Knife buried under about 50 books, so expect a more informed opinion soon.
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Lieutenant Commander Data
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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:14 pm
Romana II Don't you think it should be encouraged to explore different opinions, though? That way you become informed enough to actually decide what you think is right and wrong, and are not confined to the opinions your parents impose on you. Like prejudice, religious beliefs are often passed on from your immediate family. (Note: I am NOT equating religion with prejudice; it was just the first example I thought of.)
To those who responded to my post with concerns about the effect that could be had on those who are not yet so steadfast in their faith, I must say that while I respect your right to believe as you wish, don't you think that this is a tad unfair towards those who are still working towards what they believe?
I personally think communicating with these children would be a better approach to this. If they do decide to read the books, ask them if it has brought about any doubt for them, what issues it has raised for them, and address these as best you can. Explain that it's just someone's opinion. Encourage them to have opinions on that opinion. I'm pretty sure that the conclusion they do come to will be a stronger one for them having been able to think about it for themselves. Not only that, but it'll stand them in excellent stead throughout their life to be able to assess opinion like this.
At the end of the day, if you don't show kids all of the possible viewpoints that you can, then aren't you just skewing their perception of how it is, and therefore being unfair to them?
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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:57 pm
No offense but....personally I believe nor deny the existence of everything and nothing. I do not mean to offend anyone this is a matter of my personal beliefs and opinions
I'm a woman of diverse ideas. Personally if the guy doesn't like your god ok whatever don't see his movie or read his books. Discouraging other people not to see that movie or read the books, at least to me is a sign of bad character and unnecessary. All children should be exposed to different views and different ideas. So the child can find there own way in life and their own beliefs. Otherwise the child or children don't truly believe in anything at all; It's just regurgitated crap their parents taught them.
If it's a good movie watch it, there's nothing wrong with that. I went to a school founded so white kids wouldn't have to go to school with black kids around 40 years ago. It doesn't mean I believed or my parents and friends believed in segregation. Espciaily sense I'm black. So you don't share the same beliefs, so what who cares? I mean honestly if that's the only reason for someone to not go see it...it's a pretty bad reason.
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 12:51 pm
If this guy has some feud with God, then who are we to stand in his way? In a fight between average human guy and omnipotent deity, my money's on the one who can toss lightning bolts.
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:03 am
Solid Arm If this guy has some feud with God, then who are we to stand in his way? In a fight between average human guy and omnipotent deity, my money's on the one who can toss lightning bolts.
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:09 pm
Honestly, my brother read the Golden Compass series at a very young age. He is now one of the most active and least judgemental Christians I know. How did reading a book affect his faith? I don't know, but obviously it did not turn him from the hand of God, considering he goes to church 3 times a week. Even more, he's in college, so he CHOOSES to go to church of his own free will. No one makes him. You know what he does when people say The Golden Compass is evil? He rolls his eyes and says it's ridiculous. Also, for those who looked it up on Wikipedia, there's a reason College professors don't accept that web site as a "scholarly source," it's edited by the public and is not always entirely factual.
Let's not forget that the content of a novel is often in interpretation. Mark David Chapman used Catcher in the Rye as his statement for Murdering John Lennon, but the novel says NOTHING encouraging people to kill. Also, Charles Manson said the song"Helter Skelter" encourgaed him to kill, but the song is about a SLIDE on a PLAYGROUND. In these cases, Harmless things became dangerous. Do you think that maybe by telling your children that it's evil, you're automatically instilling in them the idea that it could be evil, causing either fear or facination. Fear will limit them. Facination may drive them from you and from God.
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