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 Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:37 am
Lethkhar Type Text Here A Different Light I've got quite few things to say. First, Liz, I guess I understand your thoughts on the surface, but they're highly inspecific. Like what kind of things will I be missing? Creativity? Wonder? Hope? Just to clarify is all. Aroarra, I don't follow your logic at all. It really proves nothing. I guess that's all i really have to say there. Type Text, I have a proposal that doesn't involve me being tortured for eternity. God, being omnipotent, destroys Satan and his minions, which sort of gets rid of Hell. Then, instead of going to Hell, I just walk earth as a ghost and freak people out. Thus, I can be evil on earth, and God can have you and your pure friends in Heaven. Why does god like to torture me? Because it sure looks like that's his goal. There a lot that goes that whole destory satan thing, but instead of destroying him Satan suffers for all enternity, I think that a much better punishment, but, Satan gets to drag whoever sins down with him. Because the earth will fade away and it'll be a clean cut heaven or hell. See right now no-one is in hell, but in Shoel, now, they wait there until judgement day to account for there sins, Then there heaven or hell. No inbetween, there no point for it. You don't understand there will be no-one on earth for you to be evil to. Lethkhar Why can't we be reincarnated on this "new earth"? I mean, you'd think that God, being benevolent and all, would believe in second chances rather than torturing someone until the end of time. 80yrs of your life and constant run ins with Religion and possibilities for you to see the physical manifestation of God if you are keen enough to find it isn't enough of a second chance. How many do you want? I mean, you can have Jesus which means that all sins you ever commit, even as bad as murder, rape, everything can be forgotten in an instant. That a second chance. By right, we should all be damn to hell. And are. See in Gen God said this "If you eat of the tree of good and evil you will SURELY die." Which is true, you suffer the ultimate death which is hell. And the only death God really talks about. But his given you a second chance through Christ Jesus. Would you like a third and fourth chance as well? I think you fail to realise that Christianity is not the only religion in the world. There are other religions that make promises similar to those of Christianity. What makes Christianity so unique? Why should I follow its teachings rather than, say, Islam? I never said it was the only religion, but as I said, you have 80yrs to find Christainity and you've had everything you've ever needed from a child I imagine. That your second chance at things. You can get God in your years on earth. What makes Christianity unique, the fact Christians have seen the dead raised, the blind restored, the lame walk, the dying healed, and the hurting fufilled. See, the Christianity I have, says that there are atesting signs of my faith. "Those I lay hands on will be healed" therefore, as a christian, it the basic princible I pray they get better. And it true. All you need to do is do the leg walk and find yourself a church that practices this, and then you have a physical manifestation of God. Lethkhar Quote: Well funnily enough you get just what you ask, see, after the rapture, there will be 7yrs of the anti-christ in power, if you don't give into the anti-christ and stay without the mark of the beast, then, Jesus returns with the Saints to govern the Earth for 1000yrs, if you live and die in this time its instant heaven. There your third chance. That's not a third chance. I still don't get a clear incarnation of God. What yes it is... Jesus will be on the earth... that a third chance. That about as clear as incarnations come. Lethkhar Quote: Lethkhar And don't give me that "God is a stern parent" argument. There is a big difference between disciplining a child to teach them a lesson and torturing them for eternity for a simple mistake. Even if they do learn their lesson, they can't apply it in that case. It not that simple a promise is a promise, God warned you that it would be Death, we see that, then we have a chance to apply it through christ Jesus sacrifice. And you have a chance to accept the Flying Spaghetti Monster as your personal saviour. But do you? Of course not, that would be ridiculous. But what exactly makes Christianity so much more compelling than a flying spaghetti monster? Like I said above.
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:06 pm
omnimodus I think I may differ from many here with my views on Hell. Firstly, I don't think it's eternal. Other things in the Bible were said to be eternal, and in later chapters were proven untrue. You know how people see ghosts? Well here's my theory on the whole hell thing. I believe that when an unsaved person passes on, their souls simply cannot ascend into heaven. Their sins weigh them down and prevent them from entering. So they wander the Earth in their spirit form, completely separated from God and the light. They must watch the living go on with their daily routines and try to learn lessons from them. They would be on Earth for as long as it took them to gain knowledge of everything they had done wrong in life. Then, if they accept what they've learned, their sins are removed and they ascend into heaven. Some souls would not be on Earth for very long at all - maybe only a year. Interestingly enough, this theory has crossed my mind several times. I've had a few "supernatural" experience I guess you could call them so I'm pretty sure I'm believe in ghosts. You're theory seems logical, especially since many good ghost stories involve a murder or something. And who knows, for some people wandering earth could be a type of hell. I'm not sure about the ascending into heaven bit afterwards, but I honestly haven't studied up too much on the afterlife. On a random note, my other main theory on ghosts (since I have several) is that they are mearly imprint in time. Something important enough happened to leave something there that other people witness.
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Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:25 pm
Well, having been diagnosed with chronic depression, I might be able to bring that into this conversation.
Hell is not only a separation from God but also a separation from everything except evil. During one of my more painful depressive periods I wrote in a journal that I was 'Separated from everything, even God himself seems to be gone." Of course, I was not separated from God--he remained very much active in my life even though I didn't think so. I also wasn't separated from being able to walk, breathe, have family, the library, &c.
Given that the separation from some earthly things plunged me into a suicidal state of mind, I can only imagine what kind of inner and outer torture Hell would be in comparison.
I think people who battle with chronic suffering in general are a little more afraid of Hell than those who do not, because there's an inevitable feeling of 'I've sufffered already; why do I have to go through this?' I know that many sucessful people--St Francis, Abraham Lincoln, Gandhi, Buddha, Darwin, and Einstein, just to name a few, endured drastic periods of depression. This caused them to value life all the more, and the value what they had even in the extreme cases of poverty and betrayal. I can relate in the sense that, having endured a period where I THOUGHT I experienced, but did not actually experience, the absence of God, I will do everything in my power to avoid actually having to go through that.
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Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:20 pm
Type Text Here Lethkhar Type Text Here A Different Light I've got quite few things to say. First, Liz, I guess I understand your thoughts on the surface, but they're highly inspecific. Like what kind of things will I be missing? Creativity? Wonder? Hope? Just to clarify is all. Aroarra, I don't follow your logic at all. It really proves nothing. I guess that's all i really have to say there. Type Text, I have a proposal that doesn't involve me being tortured for eternity. God, being omnipotent, destroys Satan and his minions, which sort of gets rid of Hell. Then, instead of going to Hell, I just walk earth as a ghost and freak people out. Thus, I can be evil on earth, and God can have you and your pure friends in Heaven. Why does god like to torture me? Because it sure looks like that's his goal. There a lot that goes that whole destory satan thing, but instead of destroying him Satan suffers for all enternity, I think that a much better punishment, but, Satan gets to drag whoever sins down with him. Because the earth will fade away and it'll be a clean cut heaven or hell. See right now no-one is in hell, but in Shoel, now, they wait there until judgement day to account for there sins, Then there heaven or hell. No inbetween, there no point for it. You don't understand there will be no-one on earth for you to be evil to. Lethkhar Why can't we be reincarnated on this "new earth"? I mean, you'd think that God, being benevolent and all, would believe in second chances rather than torturing someone until the end of time. 80yrs of your life and constant run ins with Religion and possibilities for you to see the physical manifestation of God if you are keen enough to find it isn't enough of a second chance. How many do you want? I mean, you can have Jesus which means that all sins you ever commit, even as bad as murder, rape, everything can be forgotten in an instant. That a second chance. By right, we should all be damn to hell. And are. See in Gen God said this "If you eat of the tree of good and evil you will SURELY die." Which is true, you suffer the ultimate death which is hell. And the only death God really talks about. But his given you a second chance through Christ Jesus. Would you like a third and fourth chance as well? I think you fail to realise that Christianity is not the only religion in the world. There are other religions that make promises similar to those of Christianity. What makes Christianity so unique? Why should I follow its teachings rather than, say, Islam? I never said it was the only religion, but as I said, you have 80yrs to find Christainity and you've had everything you've ever needed from a child I imagine. That your second chance at things. You can get God in your years on earth. What makes Christianity unique, the fact Christians have seen the dead raised, the blind restored, the lame walk, the dying healed, and the hurting fufilled. Ah, but many Christians will openly admit that they have never seen such things. And Hindus, at least, have experienced many well-known worldwide "miracles" as well. Quote: See, the Christianity I have, says that there are atesting signs of my faith. "Those I lay hands on will be healed" therefore, as a christian, it the basic princible I pray they get better. And it true. All you need to do is do the leg walk and find yourself a church that practices this, and then you have a physical manifestation of God. But in many experiments prayer seems to do nothing. Explain this. Quote: Lethkhar Quote: Well funnily enough you get just what you ask, see, after the rapture, there will be 7yrs of the anti-christ in power, if you don't give into the anti-christ and stay without the mark of the beast, then, Jesus returns with the Saints to govern the Earth for 1000yrs, if you live and die in this time its instant heaven. There your third chance. That's not a third chance. I still don't get a clear incarnation of God. What yes it is... Jesus will be on the earth... that a third chance. That about as clear as incarnations come. Oh, then I'll just convert when Jesus comes walking along and the earth is on fire. That sounds fine to me. 3nodding I think I'll be able to believe then. Quote: Lethkhar Quote: Lethkhar And don't give me that "God is a stern parent" argument. There is a big difference between disciplining a child to teach them a lesson and torturing them for eternity for a simple mistake. Even if they do learn their lesson, they can't apply it in that case. It not that simple a promise is a promise, God warned you that it would be Death, we see that, then we have a chance to apply it through christ Jesus sacrifice. And you have a chance to accept the Flying Spaghetti Monster as your personal saviour. But do you? Of course not, that would be ridiculous. But what exactly makes Christianity so much more compelling than a flying spaghetti monster? Like I said above. I have never seen a miracle. Far from it, in fact.
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:59 pm
We already blew off our first chance. We ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. But then Jesus came and died for our sins. If you accept Jesus into your heart then you live forever. Second chance. There is no third chance. When Jesus comes and walks on the earth for the second and final time, it's too late. Also, I would rather believe in and omnipotent, omniscient (spelling?), eternaly loving being who offers us a free chance to live forever in paradise the a giant flying spaghetti monster. At least Christianity has the Bible as proof.
Hell was created for Satan and his fallen angels. If you didn't become a Christian on Earth, that's where you are going. To a place of eternal torture at the hands of demons. Being an athiest is illogical. Look, if you guys are right, and there is nothing when we die but eternal unconciousness, then we will never know. But if your wrong, then you'll know it forever. That's not a chance anyone should be willing to take.
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:59 am
GuardianAngel44 ...Also, I would rather believe in and omnipotent, omniscient (spelling?), eternaly loving being who offers us a free chance to live forever in paradise the a giant flying spaghetti monster. At least Christianity has the Bible as proof.Hell was created for Satan and his fallen angels. If you didn't become a Christian on Earth, that's where you are going. To a place of eternal torture at the hands of demons. Being an athiest is illogical. Look, if you guys are right, and there is nothing when we die but eternal unconciousness, then we will never know. But if your wrong, then you'll know it forever. That's not a chance anyone should be willing to take. First, look to the sentence I put in bold. Now, recognise that there is a huge difference between what is illogical and inconvenient. The fact that you either burn in hell or never know, is quite inconvenient. It's kind of loose-loose. But the truth is not always happy. You know, I would probably have an easier life if I was Christian. Just go to church, swallow what the tell me and live a happy life thinking I'll go to Heaven. In fact, I might go as far as to say I would rather be a Christian, but I can't. My mind won't let me. That's all I can say there for now. Now find the statement I put in italics. I could write a book called the Oogy Boogy Book with proofs of the flying spaghetti monster's existence and then say "Well, at least I have the Oogy Boogy Book as proof." Do you see the parallel?
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:10 am
A Different Light GuardianAngel44 ...Also, I would rather believe in and omnipotent, omniscient (spelling?), eternaly loving being who offers us a free chance to live forever in paradise the a giant flying spaghetti monster. At least Christianity has the Bible as proof.Hell was created for Satan and his fallen angels. If you didn't become a Christian on Earth, that's where you are going. To a place of eternal torture at the hands of demons. Being an athiest is illogical. Look, if you guys are right, and there is nothing when we die but eternal unconciousness, then we will never know. But if your wrong, then you'll know it forever. That's not a chance anyone should be willing to take. First, look to the sentence I put in bold. Now, recognise that there is a huge difference between what is illogical and inconvenient. The fact that you either burn in hell or never know, is quite inconvenient. It's kind of loose-loose. But the truth is not always happy. You know, I would probably have an easier life if I was Christian. Just go to church, swallow what the tell me and live a happy life thinking I'll go to Heaven. In fact, I might go as far as to say I would rather be a Christian, but I can't. My mind won't let me. That's all I can say there for now. Now find the statement I put in italics. I could write a book called the Oogy Boogy Book with proofs of the flying spaghetti monster's existence and then say "Well, at least I have the Oogy Boogy Book as proof." Do you see the parallel?
The Bible and God and Christianity isn't black and white. There's a challanges of faith, morality, and just standing up for what you believe. I know it seems simple but it's really not. No reward comes without work, so if you see heaven as the reward, you're going to have to work for it.
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:30 pm
thelovelyLIZ The only thing I would like to add, or refute or whatever is that, in my expereince, being a Christian is not easy. No one ever said it would, and it's definetly not. You said something about swallowing what they tell you, which basically implies not thinking. I was in a Bible study a few years ago and I think that two hour weekly Bible study challanged me to think more than classes I've taken in school.
The Bible and God and Christianity isn't black and white. There's a challanges of faith, morality, and just standing up for what you believe. I know it seems simple but it's really not. No reward comes without work, so if you see heaven as the reward, you're going to have to work for it. Matthew 20:22 You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said to them. "Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?" Mark 10:39 Jesus said to them, "You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with, Jesus is telling his disciples (and by extention, us) that being a Christian is hard. We'll be made fun of and persecuted, hunted by demons and fallen angels and basically have our lives tormented the entire time we want to walk in his path. It's worth it. It really is. Faith makes things POSSIBLE, not easy. Reading the Bible involves a knowledge of ancient history and metaphor, Jewish customs and rituals, and scholars are STILL arguing over portions. How can you swallow things you don't understand? Being a Christian is about loving God and living the life he wants for you. But to have a really personal relationship with him, you'll have to look a little deeper than the sermon at church, which is mostly directed toward people new to the faith anyway. Eventually you'll need a little meat from the Bible, and that's hard. Especially once it forces you to look inside yourself. You think truth is hard? Wait until you look at your life and realize it's a complete mess, and you're going through all the crap in your head and your heart with a maglite and a fine-tooth comb. A general "you," not any specific "you." Don't make light of our effort. The walk with Jesus is uphill all the way, with a few rest stops to catch your breath and marvel at the sights from your new vantage point. Anyway, as to your actual question, I do believe there's something about eternal burning and suffering? God is all-loving, but God is also a judge. You've been told about it multiple times, so when the time comes, you can't plead ignorance. You know the laws, you know the requirements to get into heaven. You just don't believe us. Which is fine. We'll find out what happens after life when we die. I don't, however, believe that souls go straight to heaven or hell. I know there are a few that wander through earth for awhile. The rest (and this is just my personal thoughts) enter a sleeplike state and wait for the second coming of Jesus. Then (as you read in Revelations) we meet him in the sky and wait in heaven until the final battle is over. I think that thousand-year reign of Jesus on earth might be one final chance for all the people who are otherwise going to hell. There are still some who won't accept him, and down into the fire they go. Who knows for sure? Not us.
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Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:51 am
GuardianAngel44 We already blew off our first chance. We ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. But then Jesus came and died for our sins. If you accept Jesus into your heart then you live forever. Second chance. There is no third chance. When Jesus comes and walks on the earth for the second and final time, it's too late. Also, I would rather believe in and omnipotent, omniscient (spelling?), eternaly loving being who offers us a free chance to live forever in paradise the a giant flying spaghetti monster. At least Christianity has the Bible as proof. Hell was created for Satan and his fallen angels. If you didn't become a Christian on Earth, that's where you are going. To a place of eternal torture at the hands of demons. Being an athiest is illogical. Look, if you guys are right, and there is nothing when we die but eternal unconciousness, then we will never know. But if your wrong, then you'll know it forever. That's not a chance anyone should be willing to take. You fail to realise that there are thousands of religions that all make Hell-like threats and forbid you from practising other religions. Pascal's Wager is flawed in that respect.
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Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:08 pm
Liz and Omni both mentioned ghosts so I'm gonna comment on that: from what I've researched, the common understanding is that "ghosts" are actually demons parading around in the form of loved ones to lure people away from the truth. Like ADL was saying, the idea of becoming a ghost immediately after death does sound much nicer. Why wouldn't Satan present us with a "much nicer" illusion to lead us away from what's real: that we must accept Christ now or face the wages of our own sin, which is death. That's why so many "ghosts" are malevolent- at least all the ones I've heard of. You get hauntings and things like that, which plays on psychology. You remember pain alot better than you remember pleasure. Looking back, bad things always seem much worse than they actually were at the time. If you remember it, and remember that it was caused by "ghosts" then "ghosts" become a part of your reality and a possibility for your afterlife. And since everyone wants to believe they're such great people they think being a ghost would be fine, that they'd help people out or whatnot.
Anyway, that's just what I've read way back when.
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:16 pm
Fushigi na Butterfly Liz and Omni both mentioned ghosts so I'm gonna comment on that: from what I've researched, the common understanding is that "ghosts" are actually demons parading around in the form of loved ones to lure people away from the truth. Like ADL was saying, the idea of becoming a ghost immediately after death does sound much nicer. Why wouldn't Satan present us with a "much nicer" illusion to lead us away from what's real: that we must accept Christ now or face the wages of our own sin, which is death. That's why so many "ghosts" are malevolent- at least all the ones I've heard of. You get hauntings and things like that, which plays on psychology. You remember pain alot better than you remember pleasure. Looking back, bad things always seem much worse than they actually were at the time. If you remember it, and remember that it was caused by "ghosts" then "ghosts" become a part of your reality and a possibility for your afterlife. And since everyone wants to believe they're such great people they think being a ghost would be fine, that they'd help people out or whatnot.
Anyway, that's just what I've read way back when.
Interesting... I'm somewhat fascinated by the supernatural, and this is a theory that hadn't crossed my minds. -shurg- I don't really have a definitive belief in relation to this, because even if I believe in ghosts, they don't really effect me in any way, hahaha.
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Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:59 pm
-nodnod- I'm fascinated by it too (more back in high school than now) and I even messed around with a Ouija board (note of advice: don't mess with those things- they're bad news confused ). That's why the thought of my house being haunted freaks me out (sometimes I get inklings that it might be for whatever reason sweatdrop ) because that would mean there are demons in my house. And even though I'm protected and covered by the blood of Christ, Satan is a very powerful force and can make you forget Who your Strength is. eek
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:23 am
A Different Light Type Text, I have a proposal that doesn't involve me being tortured for eternity. God, being omnipotent, destroys Satan and his minions, which sort of gets rid of Hell. Then, instead of going to Hell, I just walk earth as a ghost and freak people out. Thus, I can be evil on earth, and God can have you and your pure friends in Heaven. Why does god like to torture me? Because it sure looks like that's his goal. You ask why God doesn't destroy Hell. One main thing I see is that God gave everyone free will. Including his angels. Sometimes power like that is the most strongest power out there. It can go to your head, as it did with a certain angel who decided to defy God. He wanted to have more power then God, so he made Hell. God isn't going to change people's decisions, he said he wouldn't. So, if he destroyed Hell, he would be a hypocrite. Also, with Hell being in existence, it sort of brings us back down from the clouds. We realize how horrible a life without God would be and go to him, as he wanted us to. You don't realize what you're giving up until you get to Hell. Well, that's my assumption anyways.
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Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:30 pm
Sour Turtle A Different Light Type Text, I have a proposal that doesn't involve me being tortured for eternity. God, being omnipotent, destroys Satan and his minions, which sort of gets rid of Hell. Then, instead of going to Hell, I just walk earth as a ghost and freak people out. Thus, I can be evil on earth, and God can have you and your pure friends in Heaven. Why does god like to torture me? Because it sure looks like that's his goal. You ask why God doesn't destroy Hell. One main thing I see is that God gave everyone free will. Including his angels. Sometimes power like that is the most strongest power out there. It can go to your head, as it did with a certain angel who decided to defy God. He wanted to have more power then God, so he made Hell. God isn't going to change people's decisions, he said he wouldn't. So, if he destroyed Hell, he would be a hypocrite. How would destroying Hell destroy our free will? The way I see it, it would only cause even more freedom. Right now, Hell is a threat the sways our decisions. Without it, we would have even more "free will". Quote: Also, with Hell being in existence, it sort of brings us back down from the clouds. We realize how horrible a life without God would be and go to him, as he wanted us to. You don't realize what you're giving up until you get to Hell. Well, that's my assumption anyways. Why do we have to wait until it's too late to find out how bad Hell is?
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Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:48 pm
A Different Light GuardianAngel44 ...Also, I would rather believe in and omnipotent, omniscient (spelling?), eternaly loving being who offers us a free chance to live forever in paradise the a giant flying spaghetti monster. At least Christianity has the Bible as proof.Hell was created for Satan and his fallen angels. If you didn't become a Christian on Earth, that's where you are going. To a place of eternal torture at the hands of demons. Being an athiest is illogical. Look, if you guys are right, and there is nothing when we die but eternal unconciousness, then we will never know. But if your wrong, then you'll know it forever. That's not a chance anyone should be willing to take. First, look to the sentence I put in bold. Now, recognise that there is a huge difference between what is illogical and inconvenient. The fact that you either burn in hell or never know, is quite inconvenient. It's kind of loose-loose. But the truth is not always happy. You know, I would probably have an easier life if I was Christian. Just go to church, swallow what the tell me and live a happy life thinking I'll go to Heaven. In fact, I might go as far as to say I would rather be a Christian, but I can't. My mind won't let me. That's all I can say there for now. Now find the statement I put in italics. I could write a book called the Oogy Boogy Book with proofs of the flying spaghetti monster's existence and then say "Well, at least I have the Oogy Boogy Book as proof." Do you see the parallel? So your mind, which is yours and that you control, won't let you be a Christian? To me that doesn't make sense. First off, the bible isn't one book, its sixty six books, written by several different people. It was written across the span of several hundred (or thousand) years. I don't know which. It has archaeological evidence, and billions of believers to support it. What does the Oogy Boogy Book (if you wrote it) have as proof? You, maybe some of your friends, and nothing else. Which is more believeble?
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