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Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 1:12 pm
I did recently get the Demon book, actually, despite my previous belly-aching about it.
It looks like a great game. I've yet to run something, and I need to read the last chapter, but I'm really psyched about it.
I'm just hoping that the morality system isn't crappy in it.
I really don't like Humanity as a way of regulating morals in Vampire. In Demon, it would work better, because that's what the game is about. The whole thing is about morals and saving, or losing, your soul. But in Vampire, the point is to stay alive, and gain power. Humanity gets in the way much of the time.
That's one of the reasons why I'm not nearly as in to Vampire as other games.
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 11:17 pm
Humanity is the closest frame of reference about right and wrong most Vampires will ever have. Demons have no use for humanity as they predate Humanity by eons. Demons measure their morality and whether they are closer to Heaven or Hell, in Torment. The lower a Demon's Torment, the closer they are to the Angels they once were. High Torment Demons are....well....Demons. Theoretically, if a Demon could reduce their Torment to zero, they would become an Angel once again.
Low and High Torment Demons have great roleplaying possibilities. Low Torment Demons are the mysterious strangers who save that grandmother from being hit by a bus, reunite the broken families, and when in Apocalyptic Form, descend from the sky wreathed in flames saying "Be not afraid (or very afraid as the situation may warrant). Guardian Demons trying to get back into Heaven, or trying to make the Earth a little more like Heaven.
High Torment Demons are true monsters. They've had millenia to stew in their own hatred in Hell and now that they're free, they're going to play and if they can stick a finger in God's eye (if He's even paying attention anymore, some Demons say God has officially checked out). Screw the meek inheriting the Earth, the Angels built it, it should be theirs. High Torment Demons do all kinds of evil, demonic things, but what they really like is gaining Faith. They want to get people to worship them, or swear pacts to them. Faith is power to a Demon and more they have, the more powerful they become. High Torment Demons without patience or the truly sadistic Demons can Reap Faith from mortals, torturing and/or killing them and stealing Faith from them.
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Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 12:45 pm
Which is why I think it works in Demon.
The soul is not something abstract for them. It's as tangable as their ability to fight or use a computer, so it stands to reason that it should be represented in the rules.
It doesn't seem to work as well for Vampires. It forces them to adhere to a moral code that even most humans lack, even when it defeats the goals of the game. If the point is to gain power by any means nessisary, then any means should be open.
No hold barred.
Which is not to say that they should be completely evil and corrupt, but they shouldn't take penalties for acting out a purely pragmatic point of view, just as many humans do, especially in the world of darkness.
This is my personal opinion. I understand the point of the Humanity scale, I just think that it could be done much better.
The thing that I will say in it's defese though, is that it is a good way to keep newbies from doing whatever they feel like.
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 11:13 am
Noobs can already do what they want in VtM as far as morality goes in the form the Path of (Insert whatever it is you feel like doing at the moment). I preferred the Dark Ages Roads (Humanity, Kings, Heaven, Beast, Night, Sin) as they made more sense for a "predator who was once human" than some of the Paths in VtM.
One of the systems of Wraith that sold the game for me was Shadowguiding. All WoD games have the mechanic of "something bad will happen to you if you do too much of this", but Shadowguiding was more sophisticated. You created another character to represent your Shadow, a separate consciousness representing your worst characteristics and wholly loyal to Oblivion, then give it to another player to play. The Shadow is a voice in your head that knows all of your secrets and worse, will use all that it knows about you against you. The Shadow will whisper, threaten, bribe, beg, whine, cajole and when it can, force itself into dominance in order to make sure that you fail at whatever it is you're doing so that the Shadow can take over completely. The Shadow can even offer you special powers if you'll just let it take over for a little while and wreck stuff. A Wraith who fails to control their Shadow eventually is overtaken and becomes a Spectre. If a Spectre's personality is not too radically different from the Wraith's, others may never know they have an enemy in their midsts until it is too late.
The closest comparison I can make of Shadowguiding and the Shadow to people who don't play Wraith is the anime Bleach and Ichigo's struggle against his Inner Hollow.
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:53 am
I've never played Wraith, but that sounds like it could either be really complicated or really cool, I don't know which.
Also, when I play Vampire, I don't allow newbs to take a path. Those are intended for advanced players, and I keep them that way.
Ironically, once you're advanced, most players don't really see the need. I did make a really cool Path of Blood character though. He was cool.
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Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:55 pm
I ran a Wraith game a year or so ago. Lasted for a year and was damn good fun... The fact that it survived a few sessions where people used Sockpuppets to show when they were talking as their characters, and when they were talking as Shadows. Means I now need a Major break from the game... But was well worth it (also taught me to dislike all the additional skills, it just gets silly - I had someone with ranks in "Street Slang").
Hunter I like... But I think it's a game that needs a good GM. True, there's not much mythology behind it (but a good GM should be able to build on what's there anyway), but the flux is you dont know what you're fighting, if you even should be fighting it, and that there's a 90% chance at least one of you will die when you do.
And the way it ends up, it's got the most potential for tragedy - You've realised that there's things out there that will destroy everything you love, but the only way you could become powerfull enough to stop it is to become just as inhuman yourself - so you still loose everything your fighting for (think you wife's going to understand when you come home at 5 in the morning with a broken arm, covered in another man's blood, the police have linked you with several homicides and you wont stop talking about the man with no face?) Also, Mortal healing times? Yeesh! game I ran, the Avenger needed 6 months in a wheelchair after their first fight.
Then again, there's games that do Survival Horror much better (Call of Cthulhu, Little Fears, Unknown Armies), it's just none of them are WoD.
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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:33 am
Yeah, I don't know, I still really don't like hunters. They're just to random. They just wake up one morning and they've got powers. Not only that, but they've got really really powerful ones. That's nutso.
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Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:12 am
The thing to note about Hunters is that their powers aren't quite as amazing as they seem at first, and a wily GM will keep combat-machines down. Hunters are supposed to be average folks who suddenly learn the truth about everything else in the World of Darkness, and not many average folk actually have fighting skills. In addition, as johnmcfloss pointed out, combat centric hunters die easy. Without the ability to soak lethal damage, heal rapidly (unless one of them has that power, which is fairly rare), or really good Dodge, they'll find that Sven's beloved Garou will rip them in half. Plus, after reading so many sourcebooks on supernatural creatures that have preyed on humanity since the dawn of time, I feel the need to root for the underdogs.
Demon is probably my second-favorite of the game lines, right after Mage. The writing is top-notch, interpersonal contact is emphasized over everything else (how else would you get Faith?), and the thought of a once-mighty angel of light having to work a nine-to-five job to feed his host's family is amazing. A friend of mine has a severe aversion to role-playing games, but came around when I showed him Demon. I have nearly all the books for it, and would love to either ST or play in a game (not right now, but perhaps in a few months).
I know almost nothing about Changeling or Mummy outside of the basic plot (Mummies attempting to avenge Osiris or something, Changelings just trying to survive the onslaught of banality). Sorry.
Wraith. I can only read so much of those books before I have to take a walk in the sunshine and fresh air. Much as I love Mage and Demon, I think Wraith may be one of White-Wolf's finest games, but My God! It's just so dark and tragic! Since other players take the role of a character's Shadow, I think that one is best played in person.
While I know its considered part of Vampire, the Inquisition is close to my heart. Faith versus the World of Darkness, and unless you count Dark Ages Inquisitor, the Inquisition is more likely to cause player-character fatalities than Hunter. On the other hand, good players will take the devious approach, and use every advantage to bring down their prey. I have a soft spot for the humans.
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Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:12 am
Well, I'm in the process of teaching myself Demon, and I'd love to be able to play a game, if you're willing to run one.
We'd need to rustle up some more players, but that would be totally awesome.
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Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:31 pm
Eh... I don't know how much time ST-ing would take up, and I've just finished my first week of classes, so I'd like some time to get a feel for difficulty. But sure, give me a month to get situated, come up with a basic plot, and maybe drag some friends into the guild to beef up our player numbers, and I'd be happy to do it.
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Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:37 am
Okay, after looking over my schedule, trying out my classes, and realizing that I've got virtually nothing going on, I've decided.
I'm willing to run a Demon: the Fallen campaign, and I've begun preliminary work on plot and setting. I am also convincing some friends to join the guild, so we'd be assured of at least two constant, experienced players. I'd like to get it started within the next month, which may be a bit ambitious, but it gives me something to work towards.
I know that the other games in this guild have an "Announcement" sticky, and I'd like to know if I could get one as well? It would make recruitment and organization much easier. If so, do I make the thread first, and a Mod stickies it, or does a Mod need to create it in the first place?
Questions? Comments? Suggestions? Please feel free to PM me.
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Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:11 pm
I'm game for Demon, plus I've got the book so I wont be asking too many questions
(for the record, I'm pretty sure I've got every modern sourcebook they did for oWoD, and I've read them all, so I've at least a basic idea of how every game goes, if anyone wonders about anything).
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:20 pm
Redford Blade Okay, after looking over my schedule, trying out my classes, and realizing that I've got virtually nothing going on, I've decided. I'm willing to run a Demon: the Fallen campaign, and I've begun preliminary work on plot and setting. I am also convincing some friends to join the guild, so we'd be assured of at least two constant, experienced players. I'd like to get it started within the next month, which may be a bit ambitious, but it gives me something to work towards. I know that the other games in this guild have an "Announcement" sticky, and I'd like to know if I could get one as well? It would make recruitment and organization much easier. If so, do I make the thread first, and a Mod stickies it, or does a Mod need to create it in the first place? Questions? Comments? Suggestions? Please feel free to PM me. Ah. That's my department. I'll make an annoucement recruiting for the game, and ask any perspective players to post and talk to you. I'll also create a subforum for Demon. You can use it to do organization, Demon specific discussion, and then run the game. If you want a model, check out the werewolf and vampire forums. Also, when some of the organization is taken care of I'll promote you to mod status so that you can edit or delete posts in the game.
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:24 pm
Thanks. I'll get right to work.
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Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:17 pm
Sure. The rest of us will have to work on characters.
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