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Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 7:54 am
I was looking at some charts on global warming and I noticed that Temperature always changed BEFORE CO2 levels...woulnd't that argue that maybe temp is causing CO2 to rise not the other way around??  is it just me or does the temp seem to change first??*points to chart*
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 9:12 am
Thank you for your serious argumentation. Speaking for myself, I'm mostly not interested in the specific details of an subject but rather the general idea behind it. You probably noticed me being vague and not really objective/ showing real results. So that's why wink Jad-Hoven Ndude I think people generally need to be more sceptic about the results of science studies. Its good to care about nature but its also good to be realistic and sceptic. mrgreen Scepticism is good, it is not neccisarily the same as realism though.Most results are quite blown up and are the very very unlike worst case scenario's. It is true that different groups especially the media in general and activist have a track record of exaggerating things. It is also true that argument presents nothing other than guilt by association to dismiss some projections for climate change, including some catastrophic onesAnd don't forget that earth has gone through far worse things than human pollution. The earth is a giant self-regulating system that cant be disturbed only by pollution etc. This is true the earth has been through some really horrible things, and has many self regulatory systems that we do not fully understand. It is also true that we are in the middle of significant climate change, and most such climate changes in earth's history have been accompanied by mass extinctions. Earth may be fine, life may go on, but that doesn't mean we will (although I think some humans would make it though just about anything since we are pretty damn adaptable, still wouldn't really like to see 90% of mankind die out, plus massive changes could be a catalyst for nuclear war which scares me a lot more than global warming and could actually wipe us all out). It is also important to note that climate on earth oscillates and we are on an upswing right now, all we have to do is push a little at one peak and (even if pollution isn't the primary cause) to make the world a pretty unpleasant place for humans. Also note that there are a lot of things going on besides pollution. A--- You have CO2 and other greenhouse gases (which I have already discussed in detail) B--- You have mass extinctions and deforestation (which affects at least some of earth's regulatory abilities) C--- You have other stuff which we barely understand going on (if you want to be paranoid consider our effect on the evolution of bateria)
We know that certain things like increased CO2 emission can raise global temperature (although the scope and effect are argued). We know plants help regulate this (but we continue mass deforestation). We know algea and plankton (and some bacteria) colonies in the ocean play an even larger role in regulating these things than forests do (although their whole habitat could be thrown into utter chaos with glacial melting affecting sea current and the salinity of water). First link shows some of the importance of plankton (about half of CO2 consuption and oxygen production is due to it). The second shows the ocean currents which play are large role in supporting the enviroment that planton lives in. It is theorized that glacial melting could disrupt this causing catastrophy (although this is still somewhat speculative) http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/07/040728085622.htm http://www.grida.no/climate/vital/32.htm So there are several factors beyond just pollution contributing to the threat of Global Warming.So if the temperatures are indeed rising it would mean that there's a larger cause and lets say pollution is only a minor contributor to it. Another point is our data. We rely on relatively accurate data that go back a few hundred years. In Geological time that means nothing... So its quite impossible to predict the actual effect of pollution etc. Calling you here. Yes we only have accurate first hand recordings going back a couple hundred years but we have methods to measure atmosphere make-up, and temperature going back much further than that. For details on how we do it, do some seaching on the following links.
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/paleo.html http://vathena.arc.nasa.gov/curric/land/global/climchng.html#know
N.B. Pollution is a rather human health related problem (like people mentioned before) than a head cause for global warming. arrow Think about it, post and argue...
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 9:17 am
Calling you here. Yes we only have accurate first hand recordings going back a couple hundred years but we have methods to measure atmosphere make-up, and temperature going back much further than that. For details on how we do it, do some seaching on the following links.
I know some of these methods; they can give a good view on what was happening local (sedimentations) or worldwide (air in artic ice etc.). But they aren't as reliable and precise as 'real' measurements. But still well enough to picture the major tendencies.
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 9:46 am
kitten22481 I was looking at some charts on global warming and I noticed that Temperature always changed BEFORE CO2 levels...woulnd't that argue that maybe temp is causing CO2 to rise not the other way around?? is it just me or does the temp seem to change first??*points to chart* Even if you go by what you have stated, temperature rises are still accelerated and there has to be an underlying factor. It's all natural won't cut it, because like I said before and will keep on saying, dramatic climate changes don't happen in a few hundred years. If that were the case then we would have very limited biodiversity as many species would not have the time to adapt to their changing enviroment.
...Going to grab some lunch, I'll reference some stuff later. XP
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 4:45 pm
Ndude I think people generally need to be more sceptic about the results of science studies. Sceptic? How can we be sceptic if science, and reason itself, concludes in many examples that global warming is a real problem.Its good to care about nature but its also good to be realistic and sceptic. mrgreen Scepticism and realism are completely different things. Scepticism is refusing to believe something, even though there's evidence.Most results are quite blown up and are the very very unlike worst case scenario's. Yes, that is true in some cases.And don't forget that earth has gone through far worse things than human pollution. The earth is a giant self-regulating system that cant be disturbed only by pollution etc. Actually, pollution can disturb it. Pollution in the environment can destroy habitats on land, in the air, and in the sea. And it can affect animals, plants, and humans.So if the temperatures are indeed rising it would mean that there's a larger cause and lets say pollution is only a minor contributor to it. It isn't exactly a 'minor' contributor to it. There is air pollution which comes from cars, power plants, & so on. These sort of things let out the harmful CO2 into the air which causes the earth to get warmer. Another point is our data. We rely on relatively accurate data that go back a few hundred years. In Geological time that means nothing... So its quite impossible to predict the actual effect of pollution etc. Actually, it isn't from a hundred years back, it was a few decades. Also, the effect of pollution is that it damages the environment.N.B. Pollution is a rather human health related problem (like people mentioned before) than a head cause for global warming. arrow Think about it, post and argue... And again, pollution harms, NOT JUST HUMANS, but animals as well. Not to mention the plants that grow in the environment. It doesn't matter whether it's in the air, the sea, or on the ground, pollution can harm not just us, but the animals that live in it too. Think for a minute....and look it up too. 3nodding
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 8:39 pm
*points to chart* but look there have been other rapid climate changes just like this one
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 8:41 pm
 Another chart for arguements sake
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 10:07 pm
kitten22481 I was looking at some charts on global warming and I noticed that Temperature always changed BEFORE CO2 levels...woulnd't that argue that maybe temp is causing CO2 to rise not the other way around?? Quote: Good point, my purpose with the chart was just to show that there is a correlation rather than explain exactly what it is. The chart is pretty chaotic (which should be expect since CO2 levels are not the only thing affecting temperature). When I looked at the chart I noticed some points where the CO2 levels seemed to change before temperature(if you look at the bit right at the end of the chart you should be able to see this, the CO2 goes down right before temp), and others where it happened after (like you said). The chart is chaotic enought that without the original data to work with I can't really tell if there is an overall trend one way or the other.
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 2:24 am
Sceptic? How can we be sceptic if science, and reason itself, concludes in many examples that global warming is a real problem.
Well you should be sceptic. Many things can be concluded when results are put together. The scepticism comes in when thinking if the correlation between things is right. In that point of view i think the CO2 is a bit hyped as a really bad gas. (I'm not saying that we shouldnt try to reduce our CO2 levels)
Actually, pollution can disturb it. Pollution in the environment can destroy habitats on land, in the air, and in the sea. And it can affect animals, plants, and humans.
I meant that on the long term earth would get into balance (not the same balance that we know now)
It isn't exactly a 'minor' contributor to it. There is air pollution which comes from cars, power plants, & so on. These sort of things let out the harmful CO2 into the air which causes the earth to get warmer.
I think you link the temperature rising and our CO2 expulsion to directly.
Actually, it isn't from a hundred years back, it was a few decades. Also, the effect of pollution is that it damages the environment.
Well there are measurements that go back a few hundreds of years (temperature etc.) But CO2 levels arent as long measured.
And again, pollution harms, NOT JUST HUMANS, but animals as well. Not to mention the plants that grow in the environment. It doesn't matter whether it's in the air, the sea, or on the ground, pollution can harm not just us, but the animals that live in it too. Think for a minute....and look it up too. 3nodding
Right. I was too brief in just saying 'human health'.
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:56 am
Even if your charts are true Kitty, the warming of the earth is still happening...and you can't deny that there are more people in existance now, than there were a few hundred thousand years ago. CO2 levels isnt' the only greenhouse gas to be affected and contribute to the warming of the earth. I guess I'm not so oppen minded about humans having little to no affect on warming of the earth, but of course I'm willing to listen to anybody's arguments and consider them.Facts from NASAQuote: Human beings add CO2 to the atmosphere mainly by burning fossil fuels like coal and oil. Deforestation is the second major way we increase atmospheric CO2. Felled timber releases CO2 as it burns or decays, and disturbed soils produce CO2 from burned organic matter. Forests give way largely to annual crops that store CO2 for only a season, or to cities with little vegetation at all. Human beings add to the CO2 concentration in the Atmosphere, that doesn't mean that there aren't other factors, but we can't deny that we as humans have not contributed to the CO2 levels.
You can't tell me that it's ok to burn a pile of tires and it won't have kind of affect.... neutral
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:08 am
I do believe however that climate change has gone from being a scientific actuality to a political debate, used as a issue by parties of all sorts to point fingers and get credit. As a consequence, many people, including scientists and politicians, can’t seem to arrive at some kind of agreement on the issue.
I think we should all agree that there is some sort of problem and that humans are contributing to the imbalances in our atmospheric greenhouse gasses. I can also agree that some of these issues have been exagerated, probably because of the politics involved. ...
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:10 am
My only point is that being a skeptic isn't a bad thing. If people weren't skeptical then the world would still be flat because that was a scientific TRUTH back in the day. I just think that it is a responsible thing to do, questioning science. Not that I think that it is completely wrong and I do my part to cut down on pollution (which I think it the right thing to do global warming or not).
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:16 am
kitten22481 My only point is that being a skeptic isn't a bad thing. If people weren't skeptical then the world would still be flat because that was a scientific TRUTH back in the day. I just think that it is a responsible thing to do, questioning science. Not that I think that it is completely wrong and I do my part to cut down on pollution (which I think it the right thing to do global warming or not). I can agree. *hugs*
I just think that some people take us "green people" as being overly emotional about the enviroment, and I don't think that's the case at all. Although I can agree that some are a little overbored.
I will admit though that if your riding in my car and you trow something out the window...I will stop and if possible have you pick it up, but if we are on the highway or something I'll just smack ya over the head, cuz we should all know better than that.
I gota go study for my finals...I'll look up some more stuff later. wink
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:31 am
Just for arguements sakeMind you I am not a huuuuuge fan of Glenn Beck but I do watch him from time to time. *backs out slowly and waits to be called a hate monger*
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 4:56 pm
Usually the temperature and the climate changes in 5-10 centuries. But what we have now is an actual climate changes since the 17th century, that is dramatically higher with our human activities (pollution with car, industry,...)
We just getting to accelerate and strength the actual climate change. What we could have in the 30th century without our demographic presence and pollution, we will get it in 22-23th century. 2.5 to 6°C per century, it sounds nothing, we could maybe survive with that with our technology, but it will really damage the biodiversity of our Earth. It's too easy to say it's not our fault, it makes us a terrible excuse to do NOTHING to eradicate the waming climate problem.
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