|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:31 am
SterileNeedles La Veuve Zin SterileNeedles But after seeing the more aggressive choicers post some ridiculous things like, "I don't have any obligation to save human life, even if a child was there drowning in front of me I wouldn't have to save him/her." I was like WTF!? And my standard response: if you were the one drowning, and I just stood there claiming I don't have the obligation to save you, you wouldn't agree. I don't care how coldly logical some people claim to be, they'd be freaking out yelling "******** HELP ME, YOU SICK PSYCHO!!" To claim that it's okay for other people to be killed but not yourself is hypocrisy. Likewise, if a fetus knew what was going on during an abortion, would they give two shits about their mother's bodily integrity? If a cow knew it was going to be turned into steak, would it care that steak is nummy and someone's got a craving for it? Hell no. Should it matter that cows and fetuses can't vocalise or even comprehend what's happening to them? By that logic--call this a slippery slope if you want, I don't see much of a difference--it should be okay to send severely retarded people to gas chambers, telling them it's a shower. Well how I feel is that it's her body her choice, she's the one who has to go through the physical changes and the like and I don't want to force that on anybody ever. But when it comes to, you know, people freaking dying right in front of you...what the hell? Who would just sit there and watch it happen? I know I'd help somehow...anyone drowning I'd be out there swimming to the rescue, someone having a heart attack I'd do CPR as best I could if no one else was there to do it, and I have my cell phone ready to call 911 whenever I may need to. But to just say that they'd sit there and watch while some person is dying in front of them and not help at all because they don't have to...I just don't get it. They may not value human life at all, but I know I do to some extent (as I am pro-choice and all >>; ). Hell if they ever invent some crazy machine that can remove and incubate fetii with little to no surgery I'm all for it. I do believe human life has value, I just think bodily integrity overrides that in some cases if that makes any sense. (not stupid stuff like, omg she touched me so now I can kill her xD ) but someone (or at the very least, a human embryo that WILL be someone) IS drowning, in a sea or forceps and suction devices. we, like you with a drowning person, cannot stand by while this human being is killed for a reason such as bodily integrity (or, because the woman "doesn't have to" save the child)
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:32 am
SterileNeedles Master Kaiser Meh, guess it comes with the territory, and I'm glad you chose not to be part of that clique. Rational and level headed choicers I'm all for, you understand you want to protect the womans right to choose, and there is nothing wrong with that (just my ideals differ) but when you start linking us to women hating or we wanting quantity over quality and also us not caring about children after they are born. I dunno, just irks me and was the cause of why I stopped debating. I can understand that. I am too afraid to say anything to the other choicers especially the more extreme ones in the choice guild...I've already done that and gotten my head bitten off because of it. I realized it is just better to agree or say nothing at all. xd Master Kaiser And about no pregnany and pain, yes it is painful, but your body was built to sustain it, but still its like sticking a watermelon through a doughnut (the doughnut can strech as intended, and I just made myself hungry), but it isn't as unbearable as some make it to be I'm guessing. I think pain differs for everybody. I think some people have more ability to sustain it than others and I'd never expect anyone to have to go through any kind of pain they don't want to. Master Kaiser Hell I can relate in pain somewhat, though I can never compare. Imagine locking your right knee, swinging a sledge hammer into the side of your knee with all of your might. Thats the most pain I have ever been delt, though that didn't happen persey, but having a full grown man with a helmet on dive into the side of your knee while it is locked in place (my knee injury during football) is somewhat similar. Oooouch...That had to hurt. The worst pain I've ever been has to be from my menstrual period. One time I just forgot to take some ibuprofen before I went to bed when I was on my period and I woke up early in the morning puking my guts out and crying for my mommy. ugh...it felt like someone was tearing apart my insides. I don't handle pain well, it just makes me nauseas and hyperventilate for some reason. sweatdrop Aye, ya, again, being a guy, never going to experience pregnancy, I cannot state what it would feel like, but that example was the best I could provide, because it caused a long term bodily damage to my leg, but also very high emotional damage. But ya, different pains for different people, I know is pain killers don't work on me because my body has grown a bigger wall for them since I took 4 ibeprophen and around 6 advil to ease the pain on my chest, wrists, ankles and knees. On that last part ): I'm glad ima guy, I'm so much simpler.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:23 pm
divineseraph but someone (or at the very least, a human embryo that WILL be someone) IS drowning, in a sea or forceps and suction devices. we, like you with a drowning person, cannot stand by while this human being is killed for a reason such as bodily integrity (or, because the woman "doesn't have to" save the child) Heh, well yeah, I'm sure that is how it is for a lot of you guys and I understand it I just disagree for the obvious stated reason, BI. There are many differences though with saving a born child from drowning and saving a fetus from abortion. First of all the born child is already born and no longer using a human body to live in, he/she would just be drowning in a body of water and, heh, obviously need rescuing. Also he/she probably has loved ones that know and care about him/her and if he/she died it would have a huge impact on there lives. If one were to save a fetus from abortion that would force someone else to go through 9 months of pregnancy, carrying the child and then giving birth to it and then raising it. It impacts someone's life greatly and I just can't bring myself to say "You got preggers so you need to carry and bear this kid!" However in abortion I doubt that the fetus knows what is happening to it when it is being sucked out of the womb while the drowning child feels fear and pain. Also usually only the woman knows of her pregnancy when she decides on abortion unless she tells her partner not many people are affected by it's death. But anyways I understand where you are coming from and I understand how you feel. I too wish there wasn't any need for abortion and that life was all lolly pops and gumdrops...but it's not, and I myself am not going to tell people what they should or should not be doing in their own lives and especially not there sex lives, I just don't feel it's my place to do so. sweatdrop You can tell people what to do if you want to...I highly suggest practicing your dodging skills though because a lot of choicers, especially the crazy ones, won't be too happy about that... >>;; So yeah...good luck with that *hides in teh corner*Master Kaiser Aye, ya, again, being a guy, never going to experience pregnancy, I cannot state what it would feel like, but that example was the best I could provide, because it caused a long term bodily damage to my leg, but also very high emotional damage. But ya, different pains for different people, I know is pain killers don't work on me because my body has grown a bigger wall for them since I took 4 ibeprophen and around 6 advil to ease the pain on my chest, wrists, ankles and knees. On that last part ): I'm glad ima guy, I'm so much simpler. Yeesh...must've been quite a lot of emotional damage if you went from this big strong football player to an, and I quote, "overweight goo of a blob, who smokes and lazes around" xd lol I like being a girl. Dressing up is fun~ heart whee 4laugh ----------------------- Anyways as far as pregnancy goes. No one here has ever been pregnant? C'mon guys share your m-preg stories. xd lol ok, well since no one has shared any stories I looked online here and found a website where women share their pregnancy experiences. http://www.pregnancystories.net/Arg sad much!? gonk I just read the first story in the first trimester section and it ended in a miscarriage. Wow...way to start off depressing. Ok then...maybe it'll get better the more I read.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:42 am
and there are people who care about feti. us. WE are theo nes effected, we lose someone we care about. evey time, thousands of times a day, someone dies and there is nothing we can do to stop it.
and nine months is inaccurate. as many choicers claim, in order to provide arguments for late term abortion, many people don't know they're pregnant until several weeks or even months after. and, 9 months doesn't account for premature births.
it impacts someone's life more to be dead, i would like to add.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:19 pm
divineseraph and there are people who care about feti. us. WE are theo nes effected, we lose someone we care about. evey time, thousands of times a day, someone dies and there is nothing we can do to stop it. and nine months is inaccurate. as many choicers claim, in order to provide arguments for late term abortion, many people don't know they're pregnant until several weeks or even months after. and, 9 months doesn't account for premature births. it impacts someone's life more to be dead, i would like to add.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:52 pm
i understand that pregnancy isn't easy or convenient, but being dead for the sake of someone's choice is a bit more inconvenient, wether or not you can or could comprehend the issue of being dead.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:33 pm
Not that this would really work, without at least some minor surgery of sorts, but let's take the analogy here: You find a very young fetus lying on the ground, for simplicity's sake let's say still in an amniotic sac with placenta attached. Let's say you're female, and not one of those I-hate-children nutjobs, and the only female around for miles--no incubators or anything either. The fetus is guaranteed to die unless--you guessed it--it gets stuffed into your uterus and you keep it there for several months. Would you be willing to do that?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:57 pm
La Veuve Zin Not that this would really work, without at least some minor surgery of sorts, but let's take the analogy here: You find a very young fetus lying on the ground, for simplicity's sake let's say still in an amniotic sac with placenta attached. Let's say you're female, and not one of those I-hate-children nutjobs, and the only female around for miles--no incubators or anything either. The fetus is guaranteed to die unless--you guessed it--it gets stuffed into your uterus and you keep it there for several months. Would you be willing to do that? rofl this sounds like one of those crazy analogies my boyfriend always tells me when he's trying to make a point. xD (his regarding abortion though is one where he eats a baby and asks me if it is ok for him to drink acid in order to kill it so it gets out of his body or something weird like that. lol youre's makes more sense to me though.) xd Me personally? I'm really not sure...(I always find these things to be so weird and too unrealistic). I suppose I would unbirth the sac of fetus for the sake of saving it's life, but I think it really depends on where I am in my life and also would I have to raise this child after it's born or would it's own mother come and claim it? >>; There's so many different circumstances and different things that could be happening in my life at the time I find this thing, like what if I was already pregnant with my own child? Would I really want another in there? What if I was still in school? What if, what if what? There are so many what ifs and this is also a 'what if' situation. Should we really be dwelling on these what ifs? Ok, I thought about it thoroughly and to answer your question; at this time in my life now I don't think I would want to do that nor be willing to. First of all I abhor the thought of having anyone else's child in me besides my boyfriends, like it just creeps me out for some reason. (if I were raped and impregnated I don't think I would handle it too well, I'd probably go crazy) however I would try my best to find someone else who would be willing to carry the fetus, I just don't feel I could though even if it meant saving it's life. This situation just creeps me out like no other... sweatdrop I have no problem saving a born kid's life because I don't have to shove him up inside my body to do it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:09 pm
Lorysa Well, I agree with every single thing you're saying, but she means that a family might be more bonded to a born child they've spent time with than an unborn one they haven't met, that makes sense, but the pain for the mom to lose either can be the same... she just doesn't want to force someone through the stress, she doesn't want to interfere. We just believe the child's life in entirety is worth a lot more than the amount of work and money it takes to be birthed and raised, I mean, it's going to live like 80 years... I don't think either of you are going to agree on anything more... sweatdrop Thank you for understanding Lorysa and yeah...I don't think I will be agreeing with any lifer's viewpoint on this subject...so I almost think it a tad pointless to argue about it and make the same points that have been said over and over again. It'd be like a never ending tennis match, divineseraph repeating his opinion about a fetus's right to life and me repeating my opinion about a woman's right to bodily integrity. xd But please don't get me wrong. I really do understand how you feel. I think it's really a shame that women feel like their only way to make it through life is by getting an abortion for whatever reason at whatever point in their life, be it because of school, or work, because of family pressure, because they are afraid their parents will be angry with them, because they already have too many kids. It's sad and I wish women didn't feel this way, I want to change that, I want to make it better for them so they don't feel it is necessary, I just don't know how to do that. If I could lessen the need for abortion in this world even just a little bit I'll feel like I've done something right in my life. I just don't want to remove that option though...I just can't bring myself to do that. I hope you understand divineseraph, although I know how hard it must be since you probably just think I'm a supporter of murder... sweatdrop ehh....well at least I tried...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:22 am
Okay guys, as much as I appreciate the healthy debate going on in here it's gotten quite off topic. Let's discuss pregnancies. XD
As far as pregnancies go I've never been pregnant but my mom never experienced any symptoms of pregnancy while she was pregnant with me and didn't even start showing until about the 7-8th month. On the flip side my best friend had a daughter (sweetest_d is her gaia name) and while she was pregnant she got morning sickness for the first few months, had the weird cravings (peanut butter on waffles was one) and then was put on bedrest for the last month of her pregnancy because she got horrible gestational diabetes (she had one doughnut and it was like the only sugar she'd eaten in a month and her blood/sugar levels went through the roof) and she was kept in the hospital because it was too dangerous for her to leave.
So yes, pregnancy can suck horribly, but it can also be simply an experience.
Oh and Danielle is missing the feeling of being pregnant, even after all of that. She wants to have more kids (just not at this age).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:19 am
Beware the Jabberwock Okay guys, as much as I appreciate the healthy debate going on in here it's gotten quite off topic. Let's discuss pregnancies. XD
As far as pregnancies go I've never been pregnant but my mom never experienced any symptoms of pregnancy while she was pregnant with me and didn't even start showing until about the 7-8th month. On the flip side my best friend had a daughter (sweetest_d is her gaia name) and while she was pregnant she got morning sickness for the first few months, had the weird cravings (peanut butter on waffles was one) and then was put on bedrest for the last month of her pregnancy because she got horrible gestational diabetes (she had one doughnut and it was like the only sugar she'd eaten in a month and her blood/sugar levels went through the roof) and she was kept in the hospital because it was too dangerous for her to leave.
So yes, pregnancy can suck horribly, but it can also be simply an experience.
Oh and Danielle is missing the feeling of being pregnant, even after all of that. She wants to have more kids (just not at this age). Yeesh. Hospitalization from 1 Powdered doughnut? That's pretty crazy. My aunt locked her husband out of the house once during her pregnancy and demanded he get her chocolate ice cream with almonds in it or she wouldn't let him back in. xd Those cravings can really drive pregnant ladies crazy. From reading through some of those stories I found it seems that most women just get some morning sickness and of course worry about miscarriage and all kinds of other things. One woman though said her pregnancy started affecting her relationship with her husband because she gets really bad mood swings and feels so hateful about everything and she was considering leaving him. So again, I think it is very different for every woman and it just bothers me when I see other choicers generalizing all pregnancies as bad. It's stupid because like Waters said, remaining pregnant is also a choice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:23 am
Don't have sex. If you have sex, you will get pregnant and DIE.
It's different for every woman. My mom went through hell when it came to sickness with me. They couldn't drug her for my birth either, because of the polio. But for my friend's mom, it was nothing. She didn't even know she was pregnant for awhile into it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:29 am
lymelady Don't have sex. If you have sex, you will get pregnant and DIE. It's different for every woman. My mom went through hell when it came to sickness with me. They couldn't drug her for my birth either, because of the polio. But for my friend's mom, it was nothing. She didn't even know she was pregnant for awhile into it. Or even worse... *clasps hands Home ALone style* Have a kid!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:25 am
SterileNeedles If I could lessen the need for abortion in this world even just a little bit I'll feel like I've done something right in my life. I just don't want to remove that option though...I just can't bring myself to do that. I hope you understand divineseraph, although I know how hard it must be since you probably just think I'm a supporter of murder... sweatdrop ehh....well at least I tried...I look at it similarly--if I had the choice between: Keeping abortion completely legal and "safe" and available all over the world but only one abortion actually happening per year, and Banning abortion but millions of women still wanting one really badly, I'd go with the former. I don't so much care about legal status as I care about women being able to prevent pregnancy when they want to, and being able to raise a child easily if that's what they want.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:34 pm
La Veuve Zin SterileNeedles If I could lessen the need for abortion in this world even just a little bit I'll feel like I've done something right in my life. I just don't want to remove that option though...I just can't bring myself to do that. I hope you understand divineseraph, although I know how hard it must be since you probably just think I'm a supporter of murder... sweatdrop ehh....well at least I tried...I look at it similarly--if I had the choice between: Keeping abortion completely legal and "safe" and available all over the world but only one abortion actually happening per year, and Banning abortion but millions of women still wanting one really badly, I'd go with the former. I don't so much care about legal status as I care about women being able to prevent pregnancy when they want to, and being able to raise a child easily if that's what they want. I agree the important thing to do is to lessen the need for abortion not necessarily making it illegal.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
![]Kaiser['s avatar](https://a1cdn.gaiaonline.com/dress-up/avatar/ava/45/d1/499e0b0716d145_flip.png?t=1230584771_6.00_00)
