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 Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:22 pm
I may be alone in this, but I believe you have to be baptized to be saved. It's 1:30 AM at the current moment, so I'm in no position to put up a good arguement, but I shall get back to you with verses and whatnot soon.
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Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:48 am
ryoushinn I'm confused. I have faith in God, i believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, but i'm confused. I read Acts 2:38. Does that mean you need to be baptised to be saved? neutral That's exactly what that verse means. Before Jesus died He advised Peter that he would be given the keys to Heaven. These keys were later revealed in the book of Acts. The Apostles of Christ stayed in Jerusalem as told to them by Christ (before Jesus death & resurrection) & power from on high would be given to them. (Luke 24:47-49) This power (or keys to salvation) was then revealed onto the Apostles by Peter. Repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ & receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Holy Spirit) The books that follow Acts other than Revelation are notes (letters) from the various Apostles to the different churches & people wanting to follow Christ & be saved. When one verse says be baptized etc.. & another says we are saved by grace they are one & the same. Gods grace gave us the knowledge of what to do for salvation. Though many chuches vary on this they must learn to read & teach the bible as a whole. Instead many pick & choose what they will teach. This is why we have so much confusion amongst the christian community. Agree with me or not is up to you, but my advice is to study the bible, speak with a trusted Pastor/leader of your church. Ask questions & desire only full answers. Hopes this helps somewhat & doesn't confuse anyone. God Bless. biggrin
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Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:05 pm
Alright....I'm going to reiterate again the statement that we do NOT need to be baptized in order to get into Heaven.
Acts 2:38 (as stated before) says 'Repent and be baptized every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
This is what my Bible has to say about it.
Quote: The main verb in this verse is metanoesate (3566 in Strong's concordance, NT Lexical aids), which means "repent". This refers to that initial repentance of a sinner unto salvation. The verb translated "be baptized" is in the aorist passive imperative of baptizo (966), which means that it does not have the same force as the direct command to "repent". The preposition "for" in the phrase "for the remission of sins" is the Greek word eis (1650), "unto." It signifies "for (or unto) the purpose of identifying you with the remission of sins". This same perposition is used in 1 Corinthians 10:2 in the phrase "they were all baptized into [ eis] Moses", signifying that the Isrealites were identified with the work and ministry of Moses. Repentance is something between an individual and God, while baptism is intended to be a testimony to other people.
We can't look at the english translation, really, because much meaning is lost. In order to grasp the full meaning of the Bible, we've got to go back to the original language in which it was written.
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Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:12 pm
x_Hikari_x Alright....I'm going to reiterate again the statement that we do NOT need to be baptized in order to get into Heaven.
Acts 2:38 (as stated before) says 'Repent and be baptized every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
This is what my Bible has to say about it.
Quote: The main verb in this verse is metanoesate (3566 in Strong's concordance, NT Lexical aids), which means "repent". This refers to that initial repentance of a sinner unto salvation. The verb translated "be baptized" is in the aorist passive imperative of baptizo (966), which means that it does not have the same force as the direct command to "repent". The preposition "for" in the phrase "for the remission of sins" is the Greek word eis (1650), "unto." It signifies "for (or unto) the purpose of identifying you with the remission of sins". This same perposition is used in 1 Corinthians 10:2 in the phrase "they were all baptized into [ eis] Moses", signifying that the Isrealites were identified with the work and ministry of Moses. Repentance is something between an individual and God, while baptism is intended to be a testimony to other people.
We can't look at the english translation, really, because much meaning is lost. In order to grasp the full meaning of the Bible, we've got to go back to the original language in which it was written. Very interesting point. Yet why then did not only John the Baptist baptize, but Peter (inspired by & given knowledge by Jesus) state this in Acts? Prior to the death of Jesus he advised Peter his church would be built upon him. (Peter) They keys of Heaven would be given him. (way of salvation) reading Acts 2: 37-38 seems to me very straight forward. It seems to command all to ' Repent & be baptized for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.' Why would the early church seem to preach this then if it wasn't truth passed on to us from God?
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Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:19 pm
"In those days, John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea and sayin 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near'". Matthew 3:1-2Quote: Repent: Metanoeo In terms of salvation, repentance denotes a turning away from unbelief, mistrust, and rebellion against God and toward complete reliance upon His forgiveness and favour on account of Christ. Although repentance can he attended by and expessed through sorrow and contrition, it is fundamentally tied to the mind or heard and no the emotions. Repentance must never be constued as a work of any kind. Its real nature and proper role in salvation have been tragically distorted. One the one hand, some have made it out to be some prerequisite of obedience which must be met in order to receive salvation. One must straigten out a few things in his life before God can be expected to offer salvation. On the other hand, some have treated repentance as almost a redundancy of faith. While it is certainly ture that repentance and faith are inseprable, nevertheless, they are distinct.
I don't see the word 'salvation' or 'repentance' in here. What Jesus is referring to, when he talks about 'the keys to heaven' is that we as Christians now have the power to get involed with the spiritual realm. It goes along with the gift of prophecy, which is speaking somehing into existance. If we speak against or for something on earth, the same will happen in heaven. It is a link between our physical minds and the spiritual world. In regradence to sin, it is the action we must take to fight temptation. Bind it on earth, and it will be bound in heaven.
The early Church preached baptism as a public sign of what was going on in the inside with repentance and salvation. God does not accept salvation through works. One can be baptised and not even believe that Jesus was the Son of God. There is no list of things that we need to do in order to get into heaven; simply beleive that Jesus is Lord and we're set to go.
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Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:39 pm
x_Hikari_x "In those days, John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea and sayin 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near'". Matthew 3:1-2Quote: Repent: Metanoeo In terms of salvation, repentance denotes a turning away from unbelief, mistrust, and rebellion against God and toward complete reliance upon His forgiveness and favour on account of Christ. Although repentance can he attended by and expessed through sorrow and contrition, it is fundamentally tied to the mind or heard and no the emotions. Repentance must never be constued as a work of any kind. Its real nature and proper role in salvation have been tragically distorted. One the one hand, some have made it out to be some prerequisite of obedience which must be met in order to receive salvation. One must straigten out a few things in his life before God can be expected to offer salvation. On the other hand, some have treated repentance as almost a redundancy of faith. While it is certainly ture that repentance and faith are inseprable, nevertheless, they are distinct.
I don't see the word 'salvation' or 'repentance' in here. What Jesus is referring to, when he talks about 'the keys to heaven' is that we as Christians now have the power to get involed with the spiritual realm. It goes along with the gift of prophecy, which is speaking somehing into existance. If we speak against or for something on earth, the same will happen in heaven. It is a link between our physical minds and the spiritual world. In regradence to sin, it is the action we must take to fight temptation. Bind it on earth, and it will be bound in heaven.
The early Church preached baptism as a public sign of what was going on in the inside with repentance and salvation. God does not accept salvation through works. One can be baptised and not even believe that Jesus was the Son of God. There is no list of things that we need to do in order to get into heaven; simply beleive that Jesus is Lord and we're set to go. Again interesting point yet then why would Jesus himself speak of baptism as being needed? John 3:4-5 Jesus is speaking with Nicodemus here. He states one must be born again. Nicodemus questions as to how this can be done. Jesus responded with the answer 'Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.' Here Jesus is speaking of baptism & being filled with the Holy Spirit. One must truly repent then be baptized & receive the Holy Spirit. Some have received the Spirit after repenting fully & honestly, yet then the church should have them be baptized just as the scriptures state.
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Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:50 am
I disagree, in John 3, Jesus is not talking about baptism but is using a figure of speech for physical birth. Look at verse 6, “5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.” (John 3:5-6) Here is parallels “born of water” to “birth to flesh”. Also, this is the only place I know of that refers to baptism as “born of water” and since the immediate context is explaining being born again, so I find it reasonable to say He’s not talking about baptism in this verse.
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Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:50 am
Seraph68 I disagree, in John 3, Jesus is not talking about baptism but is using a figure of speech for physical birth. Look at verse 6, “5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.” (John 3:5-6) Here is parallels “born of water” to “birth to flesh”. Also, this is the only place I know of that refers to baptism as “born of water” and since the immediate context is explaining being born again, so I find it reasonable to say He’s not talking about baptism in this verse. Sorry, but I disagree you. The baptism is not to cause a rebirth in body, but in spirit. When Jesus was baptized after He emerged from the water He recieved the Holy Spirit upon him.(Matthew 3:13-16) Up until Jesus death people gave a blood sacrafice to God for their sins.(cattle, sheep,etc) Once Jesus died on the cross His blood was enough to cover all sins, but we need to apply this blood to ourselves. Remember Jesus is the way to Heaven. He wont force it upon us. Applying the blood for our sins is done by the keys given to Peter on the day of Pentecost in Acts. Repent of our sins, be baptized (representing burial of our past selves the sinner) be filled with the Holy Ghost (Spirit). John 3:3 Jesus speaks of being born again. He speaks of the spirit not the flesh. Why did God choose these things as being important I don't know, but He did. To say this verse says that, but this other verse says something else, so God must not have meant what He said in the other verses means the Bible contradicts itself. If that's so we're all lost. Why would Peter be given such information on the day of Pentecost if it wasn't important info? Others can believe as they choose, but I will believe what the Bible says as I read it. Plus this is exactly what I've been having Bible studies at church about. I've been asking questions & receiving answers. Everything I've learnt thus far points to exactly what I've been posting here in the guild. So before we go down the path of your church says this & my church says that & that guys church is again different from everyone else remember one thing. Jesus is the Savior. He set forth a path for us all to follow in life to attain life in Heaven with him. One path to follow not fifty. So while every christian church on the planet teaches & interprets things different from the others which one is correct? Which one has the whole big picture figured out & which ones are confused? There aren't supposed to be different interpretations of the bible for each church yet all are ok & excepted by God. One way only. One interpretaion only. Now feel free to agree or disagree with me I have no problem with that. We all need to stand firm in our faith & convictions in life. I will stand firm in mine as I'm sure others will stand firm in theirs. God Bless. smile
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Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:47 am
I might have been a little unclear, I was saying that the verse in John 3 is not saying you need to be baptized, as some interpret it, but Jesus is using a metaphor for physical birth with the phrase "born of water."
I already mentioned the reasoning that it is not speaking of baptism, that this would be the only place that uses the phrase "born of water" in reference to baptism, amongst all the other times baptism is mentioned. And the reasoning that it is physical is about the nature of birth itself. What is the one sign that a woman is about to give birth? Her water breaks. With that in mind, water could be used as a sign of physical birth.
And again, the context of the verses is dealing with physical birth and spiritual birth. Nicodemus was confused about being born again "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" Then Jesus told him about the two births, the physical (born of water/flesh gives birth to flesh) and spiritual (born of spirit/the Spirit gives birth to spirit).
It's not that I don't value others opinions, but if the opinions are based of scripture that has either been misquoted or misinterpreted, then that should be corrected. I am not arguing "baptism: required or not?" but I am arguing the relevance of John 3:5 to baptism.
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Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:10 pm
Interstingly enough, my Dad is teaching a Bible college course on the findamentals of pentecostalism or something, and this verse is covered. So, I asked him.
In reference to the verse in John and being 'born of water': There are a couple of interpretations of this verse and one of them is (as stated above) that being 'born of water' is physical birth (I'm sure that one could assume that in order to have spiritual birth, one must first be born physically...but you know, that might just be me xp ). The second, and more widely accepted, is that 'water' and 'spirit' are actually referring to the same thing, which would be the Holy Spirit Himself.
Now, to reiterate a point I made earlier, in the Greek (in the 'repent and be baptized everyone of you) language, the word for 'repent' is far stronger a command than that for 'be baptized'. If it truly was an imperative action, it is my understanding that both words would carry the same weight, but they don't.
Also, I do not even believe that you have to be baptized in the Spirit to get into Heaven. You'd be living a pretty sorry life otherwise (in my personal opinion), but I tryly believe that salvation comes through believing and declaring that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and nothing more.
Also...in all my life (and I live in a Pastor's home) I have never heard of these 'key's for salvation'. I don't really understand the significance of them. Not to bash the whole thing, but I just find it hard to understand that God would set a standard of rules and steps to get into heaven. To me, that makes Christianity sound more like a religion (which is what man has made it into) than a relationship. So I guess I'm just wondering where this idea came from...I'd like to know a little bit more about it.
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:53 pm
Read Romans 10:9-10 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation"
To be saved all you need to do is believe and confess your belief, although getting baptized is a good idea because later on in that same chapter God asks us to be baptized, so it's obeying his will, but it's after you are saved by believing and confessing.
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:54 pm
zeke34 Personaly i dont think you have to be baptized but to the person that said its stupid to baptize babies I say did the lord say "Go and make disciples of all nations of people over age ten baptizeing them in the name of the Father and of Son and of Holy Spirit?" NO he said "Go and make disciples of all nations baptizieng them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" it does not matter what age you are if your two or fourty two Actually, can you tell me if a two year old can make the decision to follow Jesus at thaat age??? No, baptism and actual salvation is for when we are of the right age to make a decision for OURSELVES!!!! We can dedicate our children, but until they can decide for themselves there is no need to baptize them.
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Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:57 pm
ryoushinn I'm confused. I have faith in God, i believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, but i'm confused. I read Acts 2:38. Does that mean you need to be baptised to be saved? neutral
[After all, our Lord is merciful and kind. What would happen to all those out there who in their last breath admmitted Jesus was the Alpha and Omega, the one and only true living God? No, no, you don't have to be baptized to be saved and go to Heaven. ^________^ ]
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Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:02 pm
mistressofthelost I may be alone in this, but I believe you have to be baptized to be saved. It's 1:30 AM at the current moment, so I'm in no position to put up a good arguement, but I shall get back to you with verses and whatnot soon. Then what about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? He wasn't baptized and Jesus said that he would be in paradise with Jesus that very day. If you have to be baptized, then you just said that Jesus lied to the thief, AND JESUS DOES NOT LIE.
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Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:01 pm
I'm feeling lucky, old lady! Fortune tapping at my elbow! Yes, I also thank you for this page. This has been a question on my mind for some time and never did post it here!
Silly me!
That was me telling you not to be stupid.
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