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Layra-chan
Crew

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:00 am


Storm Slayer
Layra-chan

And unfortunately, there is more to a measurement than simply determining the value of some observable quantity.

Why do you say that?
Measurement is a way of dividing up a world that has no perfect units. Our units of measurement (meters, grams, seconds, etc.) are more than just stuff we attach onto the end of numbers. They represent something in our world that we can't describe solely with numbers. The only way we can compare things in our world with the use of numbers is by having a unit that represents something in our world that we can reference from.
So, why isn't measurement just comparing and recording quantities using numbers? If not, please tell me what it is that I am not understanding. sweatdrop


Let me give you an example:
A particle unobserved has a variety of possible positions and momentums at any given instant.
The layman's view is that we simply don't know what the particle is doing, but it does have a specific position and a specific momentum.
To the quantum physicist, the particle is actually in what is called a "superposition" of states corresponding to all of those positions and momentums. It may have a larger amount (amplitude) of one state than another, but the idea still holds; the particle cannot be neatly described as having a specific position or momentum.
Now suppose you want to measure the position of the particle.
To the layman, you simply look for the particle and, having found it, write down its position; the momentum is unaffected, because you haven't touched the particle in any way.
To the quantum physicist, measuring the particle's position collapses the superposition into a single position state. This changes the particle from a quantum perspective. Note that the observer does not have control of how the superposition collapses, although if a state has a higher amplitude in the superposition, it is more likely that the superposition will collapse into that state.
The most famous change is to the momentum. The momentum states are not the same as the position states; when the particle is collapsed into a specific position state, it misses all of the momentum states, so you still have no idea what the momentum is. In fact, the more you know about the position, the less you can know about the momentum.

The confusion here is about what the superposition means, and what collapsing the superposition does.
Quantum mechanics doesn't actually tell us if the superposition has a physical existence or if it's just a figment of the mathematics. Nor does it give any clue as to what actually occurs when the superposition collapses. It just assumes the collapsing as an axiom and nobody's been able to figure out a really good interpretation.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:17 am


Layra-chan

Storm Slayer
Layra-chan

And unfortunately, there is more to a measurement than simply determining the value of some observable quantity.

Why do you say that?
Measurement is a way of dividing up a world that has no perfect units. Our units of measurement (meters, grams, seconds, etc.) are more than just stuff we attach onto the end of numbers. They represent something in our world that we can't describe solely with numbers. The only way we can compare things in our world with the use of numbers is by having a unit that represents something in our world that we can reference from.
So, why isn't measurement just comparing and recording quantities using numbers? If not, please tell me what it is that I am not understanding. sweatdrop


Let me give you an example:
A particle unobserved has a variety of possible positions and momentums at any given instant.
The layman's view is that we simply don't know what the particle is doing, but it does have a specific position and a specific momentum.
To the quantum physicist, the particle is actually in what is called a "superposition" of states corresponding to all of those positions and momentums. It may have a larger amount (amplitude) of one state than another, but the idea still holds; the particle cannot be neatly described as having a specific position or momentum.
Now suppose you want to measure the position of the particle.
To the layman, you simply look for the particle and, having found it, write down its position; the momentum is unaffected, because you haven't touched the particle in any way.
To the quantum physicist, measuring the particle's position collapses the superposition into a single position state. This changes the particle from a quantum perspective. Note that the observer does not have control of how the superposition collapses, although if a state has a higher amplitude in the superposition, it is more likely that the superposition will collapse into that state.
The most famous change is to the momentum. The momentum states are not the same as the position states; when the particle is collapsed into a specific position state, it misses all of the momentum states, so you still have no idea what the momentum is. In fact, the more you know about the position, the less you can know about the momentum.

The confusion here is about what the superposition means, and what collapsing the superposition does.
Quantum mechanics doesn't actually tell us if the superposition has a physical existence or if it's just a figment of the mathematics. Nor does it give any clue as to what actually occurs when the superposition collapses. It just assumes the collapsing as an axiom and nobody's been able to figure out a really good interpretation.


Thankyou. I think I understand more what you're wondering about then. So what you're talking about is the problem of altering a particle in the act of measuring its attributes, in a very basic sense. So until we are able to predict how we are altering these particles, there is no way of measuring many things at once.

Storm Slayer


nonameladyofsins

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:08 am


Storm Slayer

Thankyou. I think I understand more what you're wondering about then. So what you're talking about is the problem of altering a particle in the act of measuring its attributes, in a very basic sense. So until we are able to predict how we are altering these particles, there is no way of measuring many things at once.


that is... almost what she's saying. you're closer though. To make a measurement we must alter the system, but this isn't a limitation of our technology, it is a property of nature. We are constrained by the uncertainty principle length where:

(delta)x * (delta)p >= h/2pi

I hope that reads well, (delta)x is the uncertainty in the position measurement and (delta)p is the uncertainty (or error) in the momentum measurement, and the multiplication of both has to be greater than or at least equal to Planck's length.

As Layra-chan said, any system that we are interested in measuring exists in a superimposed state, that is the reality of its existence while unobserved, it is a ghost. To probe the system is to disturb it and have the system collapse to one of its possibilities. Say a particle that had 30% 4m/s velocity 20% 5m/s velocity and 50% 1m/s velocity, once seen has only 100% 1m/s velocity.

This collapse is independent of the fineness of the probe, the mere presence of a probe (for without one we cannot observe) will collapse these superimposed states onto one of them, called an eigenstate.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:20 pm


poweroutage
Storm Slayer

Thankyou. I think I understand more what you're wondering about then. So what you're talking about is the problem of altering a particle in the act of measuring its attributes, in a very basic sense. So until we are able to predict how we are altering these particles, there is no way of measuring many things at once.


that is... almost what she's saying. you're closer though. To make a measurement we must alter the system, but this isn't a limitation of our technology, it is a property of nature. We are constrained by the uncertainty principle length where:

(delta)x * (delta)p >= h/4pi

I hope that reads well, (delta)x is the uncertainty in the position measurement and (delta)p is the uncertainty (or error) in the momentum measurement, and the multiplication of both has to be greater than or at least equal to Planck's (unreduced) constant over 4pi.

As Layra-chan said, any system that we are interested in measuring exists in a superimposed state, that is the reality of its existence while unobserved, it is a ghost. To probe the system is to disturb it and have the system collapse to one of its possibilities. Say a particle that had 30% 4m/s velocity 20% 5m/s velocity and 50% 1m/s velocity, once seen has only 100% 1m/s velocity.

This collapse is independent of the fineness of the probe, the mere presence of a probe (for without one we cannot observe) will collapse these superimposed states onto one of them, called an eigenstate.


And having collapsed the superimposition, we now know one property exactly, say, position, so (delta)x goes to 0, which makes (delta)p go to infinity. In other words, we have an infinite error bound, so we have absolutely no idea what the momentum is. It is fundamentally and inescapably unpredictable (note that this does not mean that it is indeterministic, it's just that it's impossible for an observer to figure out beforehand what it's going to be). Shoving it into a position state makes it take a little bit from every momentum state, so it's now in a momentum superposition.

Layra-chan
Crew


[Aeora]

PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:50 pm


Storm Slayer
Layra-chan

And unfortunately, there is more to a measurement than simply determining the value of some observable quantity.

Why do you say that?
Measurement is a way of dividing up a world that has no perfect units. Our units of measurement (meters, grams, seconds, etc.) are more than just stuff we attach onto the end of numbers. They represent something in our world that we can't describe solely with numbers. The only way we can compare things in our world with the use of numbers is by having a unit that represents something in our world that we can reference from.
So, why isn't measurement just comparing and recording quantities using numbers? If not, please tell me what it is that I am not understanding. sweatdrop
sou da ne domokun
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:06 am


[Aeora]
sou da ne domokun
日本語ですか? アエオラは日本人ですか? 私の日本語は良いですか?

Storm Slayer


[Aeora]

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:03 am


Storm Slayer
[Aeora]
sou da ne domokun
日本語ですか? アエオラは日本人ですか? 私の日本語は良いですか?

Yokata ne! nihonjin janai demo nihongo o benkyoushiteimasu... eeto ano anata no saigo kanji wa wakaranainda. Boku kanji no jouzu ga naindakara kanji no benkyou hon o kaimashita. Sochira gakkou naka de benkyoushimasu no kawari ni futsu gakkou no benkyoumono hehehe. Kono konpyuuta de wa nihongo kakimono o dekinai no gomen ne!
EDIT:
Ano kanji ga sagashimashita Ano bun wa watashi no nihongo wa ii desu ka
Hai iida yo mrgreen
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:23 pm


Please, [Aeora], watch your language.

Layra-chan
Crew


Swordmaster Dragon

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:31 am


Layra-chan
Please, [Aeora], watch your language.


whee

I bet you've been waiting a while to pull out that pun.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:34 pm


Swordmaster Dragon
Layra-chan
Please, [Aeora], watch your language.


whee

I bet you've been waiting a while to pull out that pun.


I was actually contemplating getting rid of those posts to clean up the thread, but decided it was too good an opportunity to pass up.

Layra-chan
Crew


Morberticus

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:14 am


[Aeora]
Storm Slayer
[Aeora]
sou da ne domokun
日本語ですか? アエオラは日本人ですか? 私の日本語は良いですか?

Yokata ne! nihonjin janai demo nihongo o benkyoushiteimasu... eeto ano anata no saigo kanji wa wakaranainda. Boku kanji no jouzu ga naindakara kanji no benkyou hon o kaimashita. Sochira gakkou naka de benkyoushimasu no kawari ni futsu gakkou no benkyoumono hehehe. Kono konpyuuta de wa nihongo kakimono o dekinai no gomen ne!
EDIT:
Ano kanji ga sagashimashita Ano bun wa watashi no nihongo wa ii desu ka
Hai iida yo mrgreen


Tá sé mí-muinte a beidh ag labhairt i teanga ná tuigeann daoine eile.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:39 am


Many of you have taken a stab at this. For example,

poweroutage
A Lost Iguana
In the CI, I would say it is anything that collapses the superposition of wavefunctions.


but a measurement doesn't have to occur to callapse the wave function. In his Feynman Lectures, Feynman says 'the mere possibility of a determining the outcome collapses the wave function'. For example, if we have two identical particles (two electrons) which we shoot at each other and collide then there are two different ways that they could fly off (per say). If we place a detector at each side, because we cannot distinguish one electron from the other, then we'll never be able to detect which outcome was chosen. Thus the wave function is not collapsed and the pattern we get is one with interferance. If however we collide a proton and an electron, then we can easily detect the outcome, thus there is no wave function. The mere possibility of detecting the outcome has already collapsed the wave function, even before we made the measurement. So that saying a measurement is anything that collapses the wave function is an insufficient definition.


I understand Feynman, etc., and actually own a set of Feynman's Lectures in Physics from CalTech, have listened to his lectures in New Zealand, and own other works. But most of you have your heads bogged down in the semantics and are not directly addressing the original question. So fine, I'll jump in and propose a universal definition:

****

MEASUREMENT is the observance and description/quantification of similarity or difference between (a) an accepted standard system or instrument in that system, and (b) an unknown.

****

Eigen states and Heisenberg noted, but superposition is still a mathematical construct to describe what we cannot yet quantify, and therefore 'superposition' is a measurement in itself, albeit qualitative in this case with our accepted standard system being our current physics assumptions. So you're actually measuring already, and didn't realize it. rofl

Verily, one cannot escape the general definition, regardless of contemporary semantics and becoming absorbed within the confines of trying to redefine and describe while at the same time using paradigmatic assumptions which are actually measurement systems in themselves.

asylum didacticum


Layra-chan
Crew

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:45 pm


And that was so completely helpful.

When you calculate a wavefunction, you're not measuring, you're deducing based on previous measurements. A measurement ought to be mechanical and immediate, and hence would fall under the quantum mechanical definition of measurement/observation.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:31 pm


Layra-chan
And that was so completely helpful.

When you calculate a wavefunction, you're not measuring, you're deducing based on previous measurements. A measurement ought to be mechanical and immediate, and hence would fall under the quantum mechanical definition of measurement/observation.


Sarcasm noted, though I did answer the question concisely.

Again, you are placing a particular set of limitations on measurement. If that is what was intended by the original question, let us agree on definitions before extrapolation. To 'deduce based on previous measurements' is indeed a measurement, for it is just another level removed from what you would term mechanical measurement. There must be an accepted and agreed upon standard, even if it is your own, of principles and/or values by which to compare other data. The taking of readings is recording an observed phenomenon with respect to aforesaid principles/values. That is a form of measurement, yes. However, when you collect hard data to plug into other agreed upon systems, as with wavefunctions, then are you indeed performing another form of measurement, because you seek an unknown in terms of what you accept as known principles/ paradigms/ values/ etc. Absolute measurement at the base level would somehow require, as you point out, knowledge of position and momentum. However, since we are unable to directly do so at this time, we rely upon agreed aggregate systems, scaling up to rulers to radar etc. These are all valid systems of measurement, and work for our purpose as long as consensus or personal standards are upheld. You can only traverse this subject so far without being forced to limit your definitions, and in doing so you actually are forced to qualify and create special subsets which are no longer able to be built back up to a general interpretation. Therefore, we must either accept the inherent fault in the approach discussed so far on this thread, or we must modify our original query to suit the limited case on which most of you seem to focus.

asylum didacticum


Layra-chan
Crew

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:13 am


I still wouldn't call plugging data into other things a measurement; you already have the data, so the physical system itself is now secondary. The data could have been gathered from anywhere; it could have been made up. I consider this to be a calculation, since the system no longer needs to be present.
A measurement as I tend to view it relies completely on the existence of the system; no previously collected data regarding the system is necessary, but the system itself is the focus and the object. I never point out that position and momentum need to be known, because that isn't true.
I'd contrast the situations as the difference between interpreting an image and gathering images on ones retina. The first requires thought but no source, in that the world that the image came from is irrelevant as long as a brain is present; the second requires a source but no thought, in that a mindless, disembodied eye could do it, but it requires a world to be viewed.

I would perhaps go as far as to define measurement as requiring interaction with the particles and waves scattering off of the system; this certainly doesn't contradict the (scientific) classical paradigm of measurement. The only difference between the classical and quantum paradigms regarding measurement is in the effects of the measurement, not how it is carried out.
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