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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:07 pm
Fact. Left wing = Communist Right wing = Fascism (Nazis)
The main reason that communism fails time and time again, would be human nature. It's not necessarily that people all want to be on top... Moreso, in my opinion, it's that you don't really have to work to be equal. I make as much as everyone else, no matter how much work I do. Thusly, there is no motivation for the economy.
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:05 pm
[Xenocidic_Chaos] So, as all you know, in the past we've(America) had some really bad incounters with Communist counrties, which has led to making Americans think that they are both really bad government systems. Well, I've got some news, not all communist countries are evil and dictorious.
Let me explain some stuff about Communism. We all know that the soul purpous for it is to have everybody equal. Usually, a communitstic approch is to make the people middle, or working class. Now, in the past, when communism is taken by a government, they tend to abuse it. The one thing that's not so safe about communism is there is no branching of government, like how America has the House of Rep., the Judicial branch, and the Executive branch. That, is why it's soo easy, usually millitary leaders, take over the country as an evil dictator; i.e., Hittler/Germany, Stalin/Russia, Mao/China, etc.
But, what I say is if a new country with every body just starting out and stuff, if they chose to have a Communist country, but have a Branced Government,no one person can take dictatorship.
Discuss, do you think this could work? Pure Communism is not a viable option. However, several factors of Communism are very good things. Build them into a meritocracy... and you have a very workable governmental system. Essentially - separate yourself financially from the rest of the world. Have a system that does NOT convert. All industries nationalised. Basic needs as basic rights (food, housing, communications, etc.). If you want more than is provided, get a job. Make sure that the differences in salary between the lowest paid jobs and highest paid jobs are very small. Fix the prices of anything sold. Fix salaries. No inflation. This, of course, only really works when a country can be self-sufficient, so it needs to be large and/or diverse. You can still trade with the outside world, but go back to basic principles. Trade things for things, not things for money. Especially since their money is no use to you, and yours no use to them. I said before, a meritocracy. You receive in proportion to what you provide. Therefore: a doctor is one of the highest paid professions, as would be teachers, due to the huge amount of time taken to learn what you need to know to do the job. Refuse collectors (binmen for anyone in the UK... wink ) are some of the lowest paid workers, since they need no extra education to do the job - anyone could do it. If you don't work, you receive no money - but you receive basic foodstuffs, enough to live on comfortably. You receive a place to live, comfortably. So, if you live on your own, you receive a one-bedroom flat that will provide one person with comfortable living space. If you are married, with a child, you receive a two-bedroom flat which will provide three people with comfortable living space. If you want more, get a job, and spend your money on upgrading whatever you want - get a more comfortable residence, or better food, or more luxuries, whatever you want. Does this makes sense to everyone?
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:15 pm
(hi! ^_^ I'm new!) In general I think that all (or at least most) systems of government are fabulous on paper. They make a lot of sense and seem extremely fair. The problems arise when you involve humans. We, as a species, have lots of flaws. I'd like to think that if I ran a dictatorship I'd be able to run it fairly or that a population would be able to keep communism fair...but that tends to be pretty impossible. People make mistakes and sometimes those mistakes lead to more mistakes which can ruin the whole ideal system.
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:30 pm
mugoi_usagi (hi! ^_^ I'm new!) In general I think that all (or at least most) systems of government are fabulous on paper. They make a lot of sense and seem extremely fair. The problems arise when you involve humans. We, as a species, have lots of flaws. I'd like to think that if I ran a dictatorship I'd be able to run it fairly or that a population would be able to keep communism fair...but that tends to be pretty impossible. People make mistakes and sometimes those mistakes lead to more mistakes which can ruin the whole ideal system. Well, the thing is that Communism CANNOT remain fair, because of its cynical description: "Everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others". That's not just a joke. That's EXACTLY what happens. People need some kind of return that is proportional to what they do. Which is where the meritocracy comes in. Read my above post for it, I REALLY don't want to repeat it. XD
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:51 pm
CSquared mugoi_usagi (hi! ^_^ I'm new!) In general I think that all (or at least most) systems of government are fabulous on paper. They make a lot of sense and seem extremely fair. The problems arise when you involve humans. We, as a species, have lots of flaws. I'd like to think that if I ran a dictatorship I'd be able to run it fairly or that a population would be able to keep communism fair...but that tends to be pretty impossible. People make mistakes and sometimes those mistakes lead to more mistakes which can ruin the whole ideal system. Well, the thing is that Communism CANNOT remain fair, because of its cynical description: "Everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others". That's not just a joke. That's EXACTLY what happens. People need some kind of return that is proportional to what they do. Which is where the meritocracy comes in. Read my above post for it, I REALLY don't want to repeat it. XD The two bedroom flat could actually accomodate 4. Although that's going by college housing. But you're comment about "everyone is equal...etc." reminded me of that book. I think it was called Animal Farm but that sounds wrong. The one where the pigs created the communist place and by the end were saying that they were more equal than some of the other animals. (I believe it's the same author as 1984)
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Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:06 am
mugoi_usagi CSquared mugoi_usagi (hi! ^_^ I'm new!) In general I think that all (or at least most) systems of government are fabulous on paper. They make a lot of sense and seem extremely fair. The problems arise when you involve humans. We, as a species, have lots of flaws. I'd like to think that if I ran a dictatorship I'd be able to run it fairly or that a population would be able to keep communism fair...but that tends to be pretty impossible. People make mistakes and sometimes those mistakes lead to more mistakes which can ruin the whole ideal system. Well, the thing is that Communism CANNOT remain fair, because of its cynical description: "Everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others". That's not just a joke. That's EXACTLY what happens. People need some kind of return that is proportional to what they do. Which is where the meritocracy comes in. Read my above post for it, I REALLY don't want to repeat it. XD The two bedroom flat could actually accomodate 4. Although that's going by college housing. But you're comment about "everyone is equal...etc." reminded me of that book. I think it was called Animal Farm but that sounds wrong. The one where the pigs created the communist place and by the end were saying that they were more equal than some of the other animals. (I believe it's the same author as 1984) Yup, that'd be George Orwell, and it is indeed Animal Farm. My point about the two bedrooms is one for the parents, and one for the child. University housing SUCKS.
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Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:03 am
Nirvana_09 Fact. Left wing = Communist Right wing = Fascism (Nazis) The main reason that communism fails time and time again, would be human nature. It's not necessarily that people all want to be on top... Moreso, in my opinion, it's that you don't really have to work to be equal. I make as much as everyone else, no matter how much work I do. Thusly, there is no motivation for the economy. what the FRO? Dude... Left: communism Right: capitalism
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Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:06 am
El Yo i will admit that it is a good and noble idea but it will never work because of human nature. until all people in a country become more concerned about the common good rather than their own interests it will inherently fail and the probability of that many people changing is very very small. The other problem people have with it is that it gives only one person power. seeing how you see the need to complain about bush, imagine if he didnt have congress and the supreme court to check on what he does. actually what you are talking about is monarchy which is not good communism is more of an elimination of social classes : no more powerfull rich, no more pityfull poor only some sort of middle where everybody is equal... and yes someone will have to be in charge but the ultimate power goes to the people (in theory... which is what we are discussing)
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Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:11 am
Meritocracy will not work until the work itslef is reduced to quantifiable level and we the workers are reduced to mere numbers on a spreadsheet. Try going a few days without those lowest paid sanitation workers and see what happens. I can go for years without seeing a doctor why should they be paid so much more?
In systems where a review for promotion or payraise is dones by one human on another there is always some favoritism or discrimination going on. That is just one of the reasons that we have the Federal pay system that we have. Otherwise the incompetent friends of the boss get high paying positions and get to feed off the more productive, but unliked masses. At least with a time in system/time in grade type system there is a level playing field to start off.
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Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:56 am
Well, I think that Communism would not work here because it would be basically putting America in a situation where we have not type of awareness or too much of a knowledge of this type of government. Plus, since we are a democracy and essentially have a free maket-based economy which we have had for quite a while, there is extremely thin line drawn between tolerance of something new in the United States and controversy, mass destruction, mass confusion, and migration. There are only a couple of places around this world that have a generally stable government that is Communist. With America, though, there is not much we can do with Communism but riot and panic. Most people here would probably not like the fact that this country will turning Communist. It would be just like how America is trying to turn at least part of the Middle East democratic. They do not want this because they want to stick with their own government where they can know and predict everything that is going to happen instead of something completely new and illogical to then. Therefore....
No, I do not think that Communism could work in the United States.
^_^
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Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:12 pm
Communism always fails at Phase3 and then slips into Socialist Dictatorship. There is no such thing as the Communism that all the Marx fans masturbate over.
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Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:15 pm
Chief Chaos Meritocracy will not work until the work itslef is reduced to quantifiable level and we the workers are reduced to mere numbers on a spreadsheet. Try going a few days without those lowest paid sanitation workers and see what happens. I can go for years without seeing a doctor why should they be paid so much more? In systems where a review for promotion or payraise is dones by one human on another there is always some favoritism or discrimination going on. That is just one of the reasons that we have the Federal pay system that we have. Otherwise the incompetent friends of the boss get high paying positions and get to feed off the more productive, but unliked masses. At least with a time in system/time in grade type system there is a level playing field to start off. I never said that they weren't as useful as doctors, I said that they don't need to do any extra work to do the job. All they have to do is go and pick up rubbish. Doctors have to spend years upon years learning their trade. As do teachers, as do research scientists... the list goes on. As to your comment of going for years without them... well, yes. You can. Some people can't. Not to mention the numbers of people who are going to need to see the doctor. How many times have you gone to the doctor's and seen them the moment you walked in? There are ALWAYS ill people. New diseases and disorders are discovered ALL THE TIME. Doctors have to stay on top of these. Now, answer me this: who has the easier job? And no, promotions would not be on a personal basis, they would be on a merit basis. Obviously. If someone is worth the extra pay, they get the job. You're still applying a capitalist viewpoint to this. The "It's not what you know, it's who you know" idea. That's not the point at all.
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Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:54 pm
purple richie Nirvana_09 Fact. Left wing = Communist Right wing = Fascism (Nazis) The main reason that communism fails time and time again, would be human nature. It's not necessarily that people all want to be on top... Moreso, in my opinion, it's that you don't really have to work to be equal. I make as much as everyone else, no matter how much work I do. Thusly, there is no motivation for the economy. what the FRO? Dude... Left: communism Right: capitalism He's not refering to economic models, but the fact that people here in this thread said that Communism can lead to Nazism, with it's outrageous if you know that the Communist are involved with the left wing, as opposed to Fascism(with Nazism involved) that relates to the Right Wing.
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Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:53 pm
God bless the communist... and anyone who thinks we can make communism work.....
But it is not going to happen!
The fact is, communism is just unpraticale. The original communist theory, Marx's idea of communism, was that capitialism would someday spontaniously colapse around the most industrialized nations (thats is, those were the workers are most opressed) and leave only the "dictatorship of the proletariat". That is a dictator, put one who ultimately is there to serve the working class.... This is just a transition until full communism can set in. Everyone egual, regardless of what role they fill.
The problem as I see it:
1- Someone will always feel they are working harder and want more! 2- You can never break the proletariat phase... if you get close to this someone else will just step up as the leader. 3- No dictator can please everyone... somewhere along the line he's gonna have to do something that people don't like... and then we have another revolution and a new dictator 4- There will always be some other country in the mix, you need some sort of diplomacy... if you elect officals for this it is just like putting someone in power... you need a goverment system to control them 5- Humans inately are evil, selfcenter, proud, greedy, and born unegual in both mental and physical abilities.
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Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:22 am
No. Because people cannot be equal.
What happened to just making a society where everyone is HAPPY rather than EQUAL?
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