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I'll break it down for you. Fisrt off, you never stated anythign about woman who want to work and not want children. You made a generalisation abotu all workign class woman.

It does not make woman equal to men. It degrades them. It tells them that to stay in the workingg class and to keep up with men they need an operation; instead of saying she is a woman and is capable of bein equal to a man with out any sort of accomodation if she dosn't feel she needs them. Women should be allaud to do all things a man can and not considered inferier in any way, this include becoming pregnant and then being made to feel she need to obtain an abortion. What you have efectivly said is that if a woman can not obtain an abortion she will fail in a mans world because the pregnancy will hinder her ability to work. This should not be the case, but it is considered one. Pregnant woman int he working class should be alloud to be pregnant and still do the same amount of work (or alloud to do less and keep her job because of her pregnancy)



Actualy, you have made it so they can't have both by wantign to keep abortion legal without actualy adressing how wantingly pregnant woman should be accomodated. You just said they cant be effective int he first few years when in fact they can if proper step are taken. There should be programs allowing her to work form home, or allowing her to take more time off wihtout being penalized. If she is trully the working mother she wants to be she will manage. You can't have it both ways right now because so many working women who want thier children feel exactly as you say, that they cant. This is a thought porcess that should not be alloud to continue. A woman in the working class shoudl not have to feel afraid of failign at her job or loosing it if she becomes pregnant. That is why we want to introduce better accomodations for wantingly pregnant women into the working places of the world instea do fkeepign things the same and having her possibly feel she needs an abortion.




Again, you seem to treat pregnancy in work like its somethign bad or unfortinate. An attitude that will never help anything. A pregnant woman who takes time off work to give birth and raise her children should not be chastised, she should be praised. And actualy, I did adress it, how ever very short and subdely. "We want to make it so that a woman with a bussy work schedual can have her child and spend time with him, to introduce a program that would require her job shorten her hours for several months to that if she wanted to she could go home and be with her son or daughter. We want to make things so your reasoning dies, and a woman will never have to choose between her family and her job."


Your point came across, and like most of what else you said I found it disgusting and degrading (this time i feel no remorse for statign it that way.). This is the attitude we try to combat. Choosing between work and children shouldn't even in the slightest sence be considered a bad thing.

The rest i don't really need to adress since It didn't come across as you saying what you did for the women who don't want children untill Waters mentiond it. If you said it in the first place my argument whould have been a more typicle responce a pro-choicer would expect form a lifer about being responcible, how its wrogn to kill another living being for your own gain (unless it somthign liek hunting for food) and to feel comfertable, and etc.

I'm really not gogin to quote ever individual line now. Just try to figure out what each sentince or paragrpah is responding to. Sorry...

You never said anythign abotu woman who were pregnant but didn't want to be in your FIRST post. You made a gernalisation of all woman. You clarified in your second post.

How does it degrade them? By telling them they need an operation to be equal in a mans world. SImpilest i can say it.

As far as I can tell, you are being inarticulate. You've now had to clarify and expand twice for osme one else to understand what it is you are saying.

Actualy, it is considered one. Many women who are pregnant and working will become scared that the pregnancy will hinder their work.

My problem? You didn't clarify that the first time.

I'm sorry you see it as a personle attack in the word "you" is being used as a generalisation of all choicers who think like you. I'll stop then.

I know, or have an idea, as to how they should. Instead of simply sittign aroudn telling myself how unfortunite it is that a woman becomes pregnant while tryign to work but its not so bad because abortion is legal, I stop and think abotu what I can try to do for the women who do not want to abort. Maternity programs, daycares, shortend hours without docked pay, just a few I've thought up.

If woman then stoped arguin for right now, they wouldn't have them. They aregued for the future so they could have a better, more comfertable present. By arguing for the futrue, I effectivly argue for the present. So, no.

Glad we agree

I wasn't adressing unwanted pregnancies in that post. I was adressing pregnancies in general. Its not right the way thing are, even if that is how the system works. Both need to be changed.

Things need to change. They wont with the current thought of working women and abortion.

Saying it because I felt like it. Also because i thought it was relevent.

Actualy, sorry, but you didn't say anythign about accomodations for pregnant women in the work force...well...other then abortion. Also, if we stopped arguign the futrue, it would never change. So once again I'll keep arguing the future to argue for a better, more comfertabel present.

No, you didn't talk about woman who didn't want to be pregnant int he begining. You talked about women who were pregnant in the begignig. You really made no mention of whether or not they were wantingly so untill your second post.

Really? In todays society where quite a few people look down on stay at home moms, or women who take more time to spend with their children instead of working? You don't knwo how hard it is to be a mother, do you? With what my mom put up with, with what my step sister puts up with, with what my boss at work puts up with, I think any woman who choses her children over her job should be praised. Being a mother can be a high stress, high mantinence job. You get no breaks, no time off, and no pay (unless you're the kind of woman who love the site of a smilign child or the sound of a baby's laughter).

I'd says she's like the man who chooses his career over her family: A workaholic who needs to be more open to the wants and needs of the ones who love her.

I'm sorry...I fogot to clarify in that post. I meant the comment about choosing between work and maternaty is a bad thing. I apologize and did not mean to insult. Also, after further reading, if you mean it is a bad thign that they have to chose because they have no other choice and wish they could, then I apologize agian for misinturpiting. Also, I find it horrbly insultign that you say the require this procedure to stay working. You honostly don't see this as degrading? To be told they need an operation in order to stay working. This time i don't care if you mean woman who want children or they don't, it is still horribly degrading to tell any women they "require" it to stay working.

I say we make abortion illigle except incases wher ethe mothers life is threatend, do this over time, while at the same time changing scocieties philosophy towards sex. Less sex means less chance of pregnancy. Less chance of pregnancy means less chance of having to choose to end another human's life, or work less hours.

I don't see that. Abortion isn't mandatory, and far, FAR more women choose to keep a pregnancy than abort. Women choose to have an abortion, and in this country there is little pressure from society or from peers to abort (and far more pressure to keep a pregnancy).

I would say that abortion should be a legal choice because otherwise pregnant women lose the right to bodily integrity, which degrades them. But I don't think that women need to abort or be able to legally abort in order to be equal to men.


I really wonder how you think this could be done. People are mentally and biologically influenced to have sex. If humans don't have sex, there are no more humans. Most people have some internal drive that influences to find someone to have sex with.

People had sex during Puritan times, in and outside of marriage. People had sex during Victorian times, especially teenagers (my History Professor wrote a book about teenage sex during the Victorian era). People are not going to stop having sex, or even have it in less numbers. The amount of sex that goes on per capita seems to be pretty damn constant, though trying to get accurate data on this varies from era to era (in many time periods, people just didn't want to keep accurate data on this).

They can still work, sure some take a bit of leave but that doesn't mean they can't work ever again.

Some men do choose work over family as do some woman.

Abortion isn't needed for woman to be or stay equal then men. Woman can still choose to work and they can always give the child up for adoption, abortion isn't the only choice or anwear to every problem.


True you can't stop people from having sex but the real way to prevent pregnancies (besides abstance, sp?) is to education people and tell them about protection,birth control,ect...and how to use it correctly.

Thank you. I am sorry for the flames, I lost my head and I shouldn't have done.



I think being responsible about sex is a great idea. I encourage it. Before I started having sex with my boyfriend, he and I talked through all the possibilities and consequences of what could happen, and what we would do in each case. We take appropriate precautions and even if I got pregnant now I would at least be able to finish my A levels. Which is good 'cause I don't even know if I want to go to uni. >.<

Knowing you're ready to have sex is half of the maturity, as many teens unfortunately do regret their first time. Knowing when the best time to have sex is, is the other half. That's my personal feeling on it. So whether you're in high school, university, or waiting until marriage, as long as you know it's the best time, all is well.

I do want to reduce the amount of abortions that are happening, though.

of course you can choose to not have children and still not abort- it's called NOT having sex. admitedly, it's not easy. but, it's also a bit more inconvenient to pay the cashier rather than splatter his s**t with a .45 and take what i want.

That is true. Buying a gun is far more effort than just paying for one's goods. Shoplifting though, takes about the same amount of effort as purchasing goods, and costs less. I probably would have used that rather than murder, since it still does harm the store (since they lose goods and therefore profit) but I suppose no one dies and that makes it somewhat harder to compare to abortion.

Perhaps, before you get all sarcastic about something I've said, you could try fully reading my post. This is really getting old. If you are going to make fun of me, you could at the very least have the decency to do it about things I've actually said as opposed to things I haven't said and often don't mean at all.

I said that because shoplifting doesn't involve someone dying, it makes it HARDER to compare it to abortion than it is to compare murder to abortion.