|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:58 pm
Now let me pose another question about consequence. Consequence is what happens when you do something, for example, if you steal the consequence is jail time; so what does consequence imply? Is consequence part of freewill or part of fate?
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:57 pm
chaoticpuppet Now let me pose another question about consequence. Consequence is what happens when you do something, for example, if you steal the consequence is jail time; so what does consequence imply? Is consequence part of freewill or part of fate? Freewill, because you CHOSE to steal that Bible. If you knew what the consequences would be, it, logically, was your choice to go to jail.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Man-Hungry Conversationalist
|
Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 6:43 am
In reply to the original post, I believe in Fate, Destiny, and Time. Simple way to put it.
Fate: Things that happen that are far beyond our control. You meeting that odd man on the street for example.
Destiny: The end result of choices. Your destiny is effected by how you react and choose throughout your life. How you treat that odd man affects you destiny, if only in a small way.
Time: The key to the whole entire mess. Things happen in order, regardless. Time moves on, and missed chances don't come back, though a similar chance can appear later.
So in other words, I believe in both, predestination and free will, combining to create a very odd world.
As to consequence being predestination or free will, consequence very existence is due to free will. If it were only predestination, then there would be no point for the court systems, for we'd be punishing people for something they can't control.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 8:32 am
Hedge123 Freewill, because you CHOSE to steal that Bible. If you knew what the consequences would be, it, logically, was your choice to go to jail. We're not arguing the action taken, but merely consequence itself; while it is true that one did choose to steal the bible, however it is not true that they knew the consequence, would that make it different? Why couldn't one have been predestined to steal that bible, and then would their jail sentence not then be predestined?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 8:37 am
Hedge123 Yes...... Argument is always good...Wait, no. Are you saying that argument is bad? If so, why? Lastly did I ever say I was trying to argue? I dont think I came out directly and said so, if I did, I didn't mean it. Just because I bring up the opposite side doesn't mean that I'm arguing, it means that I'm trying to get you to explain your belief as fully as possible.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:18 pm
As far as consequences go, I think fate plays a strong part in that. After all, what happens after you do a certain thing is basically out of your control. If the police are going to catch you, they're going to catch you. There's not much you can do to avoid it.
Now, there are thing you can use to INFLUENCE the outcome, luck, charm, stuff like that. For instance you can act sweet and innocent when the cop pulls you over for speeding and get off. Or, you could make and a** of yourself and have the police give you a ticket for every traffic violation he can think of. But you can't control whether or not the cop will or will not pull you over.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 2:43 pm
Hey, I've got one. If there were no free will, then wouldn't everyone believe the same thing? I mean, whichever god/dess is right, wouldn't they want everyone to follow the "true path" (assuming, of course, that there is one...)?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 3:40 pm
The difficulty with having a reasonable discussion about free will is that we don't understand how the brain functions. Without that, you run into the problem of mot being able to prove theories. One can provide theories that sound reasonable, but to say that this is definitely how free will or fate exist or fail to exist is flawed.
Personally, I suspect that human emotions do drive much of our processes, which some might say is fate. Rational thought is relatively ill-equipped to deal with this "intrusion", being a human invention, and thus, suspect as most human-created concepts are. The main difference between fate and emotionally based processes is the connotation fate carries. I have difficulty believing that a divine entity or force controls and outlines my actions or overall actions, but I can accept a internal human based, somewhat effective control.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 6:09 pm
Naeryn Hey, I've got one. If there were no free will, then wouldn't everyone believe the same thing? I mean, whichever god/dess is right, wouldn't they want everyone to follow the "true path" (assuming, of course, that there is one...)? Not if that was "whoever's" plan from the beginning. Like, they gave us the appearance of free will and choice of life paths and religion simply to make us learn extra lessons. I'm not saying I agree with this, but there it is.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 6:47 pm
I believe it is a mixture of the two. In the bible God had our lives planned out but decided that he would rather us have freewill. So it's like our life is set as a skeleton and our choices fill the muscle and skin. That didn't make sense did it?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 10:03 pm
chaoticpuppet Hedge123 Yes...... Argument is always good...Wait, no. Are you saying that argument is bad? If so, why? Lastly did I ever say I was trying to argue? I dont think I came out directly and said so, if I did, I didn't mean it. Just because I bring up the opposite side doesn't mean that I'm arguing, it means that I'm trying to get you to explain your belief as fully as possible. It was JOKE, alright? geez. I was referring to how major arguments cause major wars sometimes. I realize this isn't arguing, it's debate. Back to whatever we were talking about, getting on subject: True, if their predestiny was to steal the bible, etc, then their jail sentence would be predestined; but what if, assuming we have freewill, you can afford a really good lawyer, and he gets you sprung on the technicality that you suffered Pain and Mental Anguish when the Bible cut your finger, wouldn't you be avoiding your sentence:therefore from that wouldn't the consequence be a seperate destiny from the deed itself?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:59 pm
Prongs Jr I believe it is a mixture of the two. In the bible God had our lives planned out but decided that he would rather us have freewill. So it's like our life is set as a skeleton and our choices fill the muscle and skin. That didn't make sense did it? I think I get it. I remeber posting somewhere that the freewill/destination issue is like a parent with a child. The parent can set the whole life out for the child the day they are born, but that doesnt mean the child will follow that plan.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 12:06 am
Hedge123 It was JOKE, alright? geez. I was referring to how major arguments cause major wars sometimes. I realize this isn't arguing, it's debate. Back to whatever we were talking about, getting on subject: True, if their predestiny was to steal the bible, etc, then their jail sentence would be predestined; but what if, assuming we have freewill, you can afford a really good lawyer, and he gets you sprung on the technicality that you suffered Pain and Mental Anguish when the Bible cut your finger, wouldn't you be avoiding your sentence:therefore from that wouldn't the consequence be a seperate destiny from the deed itself? I realized that it probably was a joke, but I wanted to make sure. For the record we will get nowhere with this, becuase I can keep saying that it was predestination, or that it was freewill. Maybe it was predestined that you would get that good lawyer, and out of your sentence. I will leave you and everyone else with this other question; does the feeling of choice necessarily mean freewill?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 7:07 pm
chaoticpuppet Hedge123 It was JOKE, alright? geez. I was referring to how major arguments cause major wars sometimes. I realize this isn't arguing, it's debate. Back to whatever we were talking about, getting on subject: True, if their predestiny was to steal the bible, etc, then their jail sentence would be predestined; but what if, assuming we have freewill, you can afford a really good lawyer, and he gets you sprung on the technicality that you suffered Pain and Mental Anguish when the Bible cut your finger, wouldn't you be avoiding your sentence:therefore from that wouldn't the consequence be a seperate destiny from the deed itself? I realized that it probably was a joke, but I wanted to make sure. For the record we will get nowhere with this, becuase I can keep saying that it was predestination, or that it was freewill. Maybe it was predestined that you would get that good lawyer, and out of your sentence. I will leave you and everyone else with this other question; does the feeling of choice necessarily mean freewill? No, not nessasarily. I could be thinking "Hey, I'm gonna tell this guy what a jerk he is." But I'm not, am I? So yes.Wait-no. Definetly No. Yes, basiacly we're in a rut. We can argue till are fingers get rashes, and we still will run out of points. Lets get off that discussion. I like Prongs analogy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 9:11 pm
slamming my opinion on strager's guilds rulz.
I believe in entropy.
That is, i believe it is all "random".
Ever heard that saying about a butterfly flying over Japan that can cause a thunderstorm in New York?
well... that pretty much defines my belief on this.
There are hundreds over thousands over millions of variables, and we can only see just a few, which in my opinion, invalidates free will AND destiny.
Destiny can be broken by free will, and free will can be broken by destiny.
In any case, we have no choice other than try to do the best we can. Or pretend we're mad and follow the voices of the destiny :mrgree:
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reply
