Welcome to Gaia! ::

The Japanese Student Guild

Back to Guilds

The place to learn about Japan and all facets of Japanese culture 

Tags: Japanese, Student, Guild 

Reply Learning Japanese
は PARTICLE  Goto Page: [] [<] 1 2

Quick Reply

Enter both words below, separated by a space:

Can't read the text? Click here

Submit

do you want me to keep teaching?
  yes! dont go!
  死んじゃえ
View Results

Aiko_589

PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:59 pm


missgothiclolita
Aiko_589
missgothiclolita
how can you tell when reading things when to say ha or wa if you know what i mean cause sometimes i can tell and sometimes when i read things in japanese i never never which one to say


thats really your problem, because i just know because i was taught.besides it is usally very obvious. (like Obviously なつよりはる Say ha。 Just one of the uses of kani because in kanji it is 夏より春
well for you it is but for someone that is barely learning its a bit hard and whats kani
 

SOrry I forgot to type j in kanji
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:45 pm


が And は Often be interchangebale if they are not part of a set grammar rule. mistakes with が Are much more fatal. 

Remeber this rules as well

If need be (which is often, veyr often) は And other particles need to be combines, so:

で+は= では 

に+は= には 

も+は= も 

が+は= は 

を+は= は (Though in old japanese [like ancient] をは Was acceptable but not today)

Aiko_589


Aiko_589

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:48 pm


Please remeber

は More important than が 

が MUCH MORE USEFUL THAN は
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:53 pm


が Is always used with questions because of its identifing effect ex:


誰がつってんの? 


Who said it? 

誰はつってんの

who said it. (this is like saying "hey do you know who sweared?!" "oh yeah it was who!" "weird names they give kids these days" "yeah i know what you mean)

Aiko_589


Aiko_589

PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:06 pm


Quote:
No, the "emphasizes what comes after" and "emphasizes what comes before" is actually not the case at all. You're misunderstanding.

は is the topic marker.
が is the subject marker.

When they first teach you sentences in Japanese class, they give you は. They say that you use it to mark the subject, and they give you が only in specific pre-constructed grammar forms and never explain why you use it instead. This is technically not true. The reason they tell you this is because trying to teach you the differences between は and が from the beginning would be too confusing, so they teach you something that is technically not grammatically correct, but it's at least understandable.

A: 猫が好きですか?  neko ga suki desu ka?
The subject of this sentence is neko. "Are cats pleasing to you." Cats + が + suki desu ka.

What is the topic of this sentence? Nothing is marked with は here. However even without は、 the topic is implied to be "you". However the "you" isn't actually in the sentence, and so it isn't marked by は。  The subject however is cats, and marked with が。

But what about this response:

B: 母さんは犬が好きですが…  kaasan ha inu ga suki desu ga... Well, my mom likes dogs, but...
Here we have a topic change. As for my mother (and not me), she likes cats, but...

The は here is necessary because it shifts the entire focus of the conversation away from Hiroshisan and cats to the mother. It's like emphasizing "Well my mom likes cats, but..."

The subject here is the dogs, which are suki desu. That is, they are likable. The topic is the mom, and we needed は to shift the topic away from the previous lines to this new topic.

---------

ペンがありますか? pen ga arimasu ka? Do you have a pen?
The subject here is the pen. Marked with が. The topic is not explicitely marked here, but it's implied to be "you." "(As for you), (do you) have a pen?"

If you answered:
ペンがありません。 pen ga arimasen "I don't have a pen"
The subject here is still the pen. The topic is now implied to be "I", but it's dropped from the sentence because it isn't needed. If the word isn't there, there's no need to flag it with は.

But what about this?
ペンシルはありますが、ペンがありません。   I do have a pencil, but not a pen. Or:
ジョンはペンがありますが、私はペンがありません。  John has a pen, but I don't have a pen.

Here we're changing the topic too. In the first sentence, you're saying "(as for a pencil), I do have that" and changing the topic from pens to pencils. Note that again, the "I" in the second part of the sentence is not needed and so it isn't there, or marked. However the topic of the conversation is shifted from pens to pencils. "As for a pencil (but probably not a pen), I do have that."

Note that in the first part of the sentence, we've changed the subject as well. Both the subject and the topic are temporarily pencils, however the topic particle always takes precedence over the subject particle if both are valid.

In the second sentence, we change the topic twice. "John has a pen but..." changing the topic to John, because you're trying to say John has a pen but you don't. Then you have to change the topic back: "but (as for me, I) don't have a pen," changing the topic back to you. The subject, however, has remained unchanged this entire time: pens.

Do you see how that works? が simply marks the subjects of the sentence. は actually shifts the entire topic of conversation to a new topic temporarily.

When you first learned:

私は(名前)です。    "my name is _____" they taught you to use は. Why did they do this? What you're actually saying is changing the topic to yourself. "As for myself, my name is _____" or "My name is _____." You're actually doing a full topic change, not simply marking a subject. But they don't teach you this, because when you're first trying to put together simple sentences, trying to teach you the differences between は and が would be so confusing, you couldn't even manage to say your name without getting confused.

-------

However to make matters even more confusing, native speakers will often drop the は or が.

For instance in our first example, if I said:

博さん、猫が好きですか? Hiroshisan, neko ga suki desu ka?    The topic is Hiroshisan. Why isn't it marked with は? The truth is that it could and probably should be, but simply saying someone's name, pausing slightly, then asking the question is actually more natural sounding that a full 博さんは猫が好きですか.

So here we've dropped the は topic marker, but it's clear from context where it should be, and what the topic is. But looking at that sentence, you would probably be kind of confused about what's the topic and what's the subject. Native speakers, however, know what those parts are without them even really needing to be explicitely marked. They imply it through pauses, or just by sentence structure. That's why a lot of times as a Japanese learner, you'll get confused. The particles are still there, and are still technically necessary -- they're simply just not said instead.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:53 pm


that's some very good information on wa and ga. it's so good let's give credit to the original person who wrote it:

http://www.animelyrics.tv/forum/topic_show.pl?pid=391963#391963

ferretclaw


Aiko_589

PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:11 pm


ferretclaw
that's some very good information on wa and ga. it's so good let's give credit to the original person who wrote it:

]http://www.animelyrics.tv/forum/topic_show.pl?pid=391963#391963


i really shou;d. m.ryuuji is good at giving explanation in english which i cannot. you yoursel fprobably know: japanese people know the difference between wa and ga but the DONT KNOW the difference bewtween wa and ga.


um do you understand? sweatdrop
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:10 pm


Aiko_589
ferretclaw
that's some very good information on wa and ga. it's so good let's give credit to the original person who wrote it:

]http://www.animelyrics.tv/forum/topic_show.pl?pid=391963#391963


i really shou;d. m.ryuuji is good at giving explanation in english which i cannot. you yoursel fprobably know: japanese people know the difference between wa and ga but the DONT KNOW the difference bewtween wa and ga.


um do you understand? sweatdrop

yes, i think i understand. the CONCEPT of wa and ga is so simple, but their uses can be complex when you try to analyze them, especially when you try to explain it in english to english speakers who have nothing similar like that in their own language.

every once in a while you'll have a person who can explain it very nicely, and that guy is very skilled, isn't he? i don't think even i could have explained it that well.

ferretclaw


SannaSK

10,000 Points
  • Invisibility 100
  • Tycoon 200
  • Conversationalist 100
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:59 am


this has been extremely helpful in reminding me of the difference.


question: if i were to say, "は marks the nomative of a sentence," is that correct? I'm thinking of the example given with the John and I and the pens in the quoted text.



saying bluntly "が marks the subject" is what i think is confusing to Americans. In elementary school, we are taught that the 'subject of the sentence is the thing doing the verb'. To go back to the pens:


"I have a pen."
the pen is actually the direct object, and I is the subject. however, saying this in japanese, "I" would be the (object in the) nominative (case in the sentence) and would take は. In English, "have" is the verb and "I" is doing the verb, namely that "I" is "having" a "pen".


The nominative is verbing the direct object.... at least in English.
I think if we taught our students to use the word 'nominative' instead of 'subject', it would make more sense to be told that "pens" are actually the 'subject' of a Japanese sentence.



hm, to go further...

Quote:
A: 猫が好きですか? neko ga suki desu ka?

Do you like cats? "You" would be the nominative, therefore the 'topic', therefore would take the 'ha'. Cats are the J-'subject', and therefore take the 'ga'.



hm, do i have it right?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:11 pm


SannaSK
this has been extremely helpful in reminding me of the difference.


question: if i were to say, "は marks the nomative of a sentence," is that correct? I'm thinking of the example given with the John and I and the pens in the quoted text.



saying bluntly "が marks the subject" is what i think is confusing to Americans. In elementary school, we are taught that the 'subject of the sentence is the thing doing the verb'. To go back to the pens:


"I have a pen."
the pen is actually the direct object, and I is the subject. however, saying this in japanese, "I" would be the (object in the) nominative (case in the sentence) and would take は. In English, "have" is the verb and "I" is doing the verb, namely that "I" is "having" a "pen".


The nominative is verbing the direct object.... at least in English.
I think if we taught our students to use the word 'nominative' instead of 'subject', it would make more sense to be told that "pens" are actually the 'subject' of a Japanese sentence.



hm, to go further...

Quote:
A: 猫が好きですか? neko ga suki desu ka?

Do you like cats? "You" would be the nominative, therefore the 'topic', therefore would take the 'ha'. Cats are the J-'subject', and therefore take the 'ga'.



hm, do i have it right?


yes and no. the subject doesnt REALLY exist in japanese. which is why foreginers a prone to over using "wa, desu and da"

Aiko_589


Fillanzea

PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:12 am


SannaSK



"I have a pen."
the pen is actually the direct object, and I is the subject. however, saying this in japanese, "I" would be the (object in the) nominative (case in the sentence) and would take は. In English, "have" is the verb and "I" is doing the verb, namely that "I" is "having" a "pen".




When, you have to remember that 'aru' means 'exist.' So 'pen ga arimasu' is literally 'a pen exists,' and so pen is the subject.
Reply
Learning Japanese

Goto Page: [] [<] 1 2
 
Manage Your Items
Other Stuff
Get GCash
Offers
Get Items
More Items
Where Everyone Hangs Out
Other Community Areas
Virtual Spaces
Fun Stuff
Gaia's Games
Mini-Games
Play with GCash
Play with Platinum