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 Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:28 pm
What's it all matter? Either way Jesus is a good influence on the world. If he never existed, does it matter? If this whole world is a trick of the imagination, it doesn't matter. We don't need to know this stuff. The point about being a Christian is BELIEVING THAT THE WAYS OF JESUS ARE RIGHT. There is not need to debate whether he was real or not. THAT is faith.
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Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:29 pm
Ethan Irkel Yeager What's it all matter? Either way Jesus is a good influence on the world. If he never existed, does it matter? If this whole world is a trick of the imagination, it doesn't matter. We don't need to know this stuff. The point about being a Christian is BELIEVING THAT THE WAYS OF JESUS ARE RIGHT. There is not need to debate whether he was real or not. THAT is faith. But if you don't believe Jesus existed, then He stops being a Diety, and, as such, stops having any moral relavence whatsoever.
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Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:45 pm
Cometh The Inquisitor Ethan Irkel Yeager What's it all matter? Either way Jesus is a good influence on the world. If he never existed, does it matter? If this whole world is a trick of the imagination, it doesn't matter. We don't need to know this stuff. The point about being a Christian is BELIEVING THAT THE WAYS OF JESUS ARE RIGHT. There is not need to debate whether he was real or not. THAT is faith. But if you don't believe Jesus existed, then He stops being a Diety, and, as such, stops having any moral relavence whatsoever. I never denied the existence of Jesus Christ. I, personally, believe that he existed. But what's it matter? I believe in (and try my best to follow) the ways of Jesus, and I don't need proof of his existence to do so.
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Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:53 pm
mrgreen That's right! In the end, we ask these questions because they give us an easy and convient excuse for sin.
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Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:28 pm
To make a long story short: If the witness' of the works of Jesus i.e. words, claims, healings, and resurrection lied in there testimony they
1. Made up a story which did not put them in a very good light.
ex: doubting Thomas, ye of little faith, Saul killing Christians etc ect
2. Went to their often excruciating deaths without recanting the gospel.
and there is much more but would you die for a lie?
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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:43 pm
You should read the books The Case For Faith and The Case For Christ, they will help confirm your belief in Jesus.
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Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:02 pm
Tezzy Shadenhand JosephusJosephus was a Jewish historian who was born in either 37 or 38 AD and died some time after 100 AD. He wrote the Jewish Antiquites and in one famous passage described Jesus as a wise man, a doer of wonderful works and calls him the Christ. He also affirmed that Jesus was executed by Pilate and actually rose from the dead josephus also recorded the miracles didnt he? Anyways im sure the enitre world believes he existed (as a man) because in a religion( not christianity i forget which one) you have to accept that Jesus existed and was a great spiritual leader or else they kick you out of their prayer place (depending on which religion it was... ie: mosque). the real question is: Was Jesus A liar, A lunatic, or who he claimed he was, The Son of God. Now i wouldnt want to die for my lie, as someone previously said... and i think a lunatic wouldnt either, so we have to assume he was who he said he was. And then his disciples when they went out into the world, if they knew what they saw had all been a sham but still went along with it beacuse it brought with it osme fame, when the knife was to their throat i think they would fess up and be like "No way man, this guys a liar, arrest him" they wouldnt die for a lie either.
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Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:30 pm
this subject has already been brought up in this forum.....but ill say once again
YOU CANT PROVE JESUS EXISTED! Why? Because we go to him by FAITH not by proof. What would be the point of faith if we had proof all around us? He won't ALLOW proof.
and please dont give me that crap about "oh we have the earth, blah blah". you know what? if we had proof that god created the earth these arguments wouldnt even BE HERE by now. they have theories sure, but theories are theories, they'r enot solid evidence.
And trust me, I've seen enough shows already of them trying to prove that the accounts in the bible are real and that Jesus is real. They already tried:
Noahs Ark: they THINK they found some big mass of an object in the mountains where supposdly Noah landed his ark, but they didn't trully confirm it.
The Great Flood: as usual they always have some "theory" that disproves what they're trying to prove.
Christ's Wrappings: despite how CLOSE this got, its still not proven that the cloth they found is actually the cloth wrapped around Jesus' body after the crucifiction (sp?). They "supposdly" found some type of image that "looks" like a person with a crown on thorns on their head, but thats about all they found. But its still not solid proof.
There are quite a few other shows on such things I'm sure, neither of which are going to be enough evidence to actually prove God/Jesus' existence.
Here's one for you. What about the Garden of Eden? the bible gives its exact location, yet they haven't foudn it....why? Becuase God won't let us. Its probably not visible to our eyes, only his. And why is it hidden? BECAUSE IT WOULD BE PROOF! And he doesn't want us ot have proof. He wnats us to have faith.
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Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:52 pm
I think, therefore, I am.
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Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:26 pm
the bible has been written like 5000 year ago. right? and it talks a lot about rome in the gospel. [: Rome was figured out when? not to long ago. see the connection here?
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Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:04 pm
SaintChaos this subject has already been brought up in this forum.....but ill say once again YOU CANT PROVE JESUS EXISTED! Why? Because we go to him by FAITH not by proof. What would be the point of faith if we had proof all around us? He won't ALLOW proof. and please dont give me that crap about "oh we have the earth, blah blah". you know what? if we had proof that god created the earth these arguments wouldnt even BE HERE by now. they have theories sure, but theories are theories, they'r enot solid evidence. And trust me, I've seen enough shows already of them trying to prove that the accounts in the bible are real and that Jesus is real. They already tried: Noahs Ark: they THINK they found some big mass of an object in the mountains where supposdly Noah landed his ark, but they didn't trully confirm it. The Great Flood: as usual they always have some "theory" that disproves what they're trying to prove. Christ's Wrappings: despite how CLOSE this got, its still not proven that the cloth they found is actually the cloth wrapped around Jesus' body after the crucifiction (sp?). They "supposdly" found some type of image that "looks" like a person with a crown on thorns on their head, but thats about all they found. But its still not solid proof. There are quite a few other shows on such things I'm sure, neither of which are going to be enough evidence to actually prove God/Jesus' existence. Here's one for you. What about the Garden of Eden? the bible gives its exact location, yet they haven't foudn it....why? Becuase God won't let us. Its probably not visible to our eyes, only his. And why is it hidden? BECAUSE IT WOULD BE PROOF! And he doesn't want us ot have proof. He wnats us to have faith. here's a few things you left out. A. The flood story in the bible, it's mentioned in many societies. The mesopotamian, sumerians, and egyptians all had their own account of the flood, the one thing constant is that it was a divinely caused flood. B. Proof doesn't make faith irrelevant. I can have proof that God existed and still believe in him. C. We know where the garden of eden would be in our time; or did we forget about plate tectonics? Remember Pangaea? The super-continent that eventually broke apart and became the continents we have today? Remember that the time during the garden of eden and man and womans creation is underterminable so it could have been during Pangaea. However, if you want to get technical, the bible places it between two rivers in the mesopotamian crescent. don't belive me? look at the names of the rivers and then a map of mesopotamia. you'll see them right near the sea, and get this, they form a center island just like the bible says; The Garden of Eden was surrounded by the two rivers. D. God gave us proof of his own accord because he knew that some would be like doubting Thomas. So if God doesn't give proof, why would he show his wounds to Thomas? Why would Jesus have even called himself the Son of God if he didn't want us to have proof? E. For a more radical example, let's use science to prove a divine being. The first law of Newton is that matter cannot be created or destroyed. (Hey, lookie there. Something we can't create or destroy...I'm thinking something we didn't make, so something that has had to be here before us...maybe God made matter?)Moving on, everything dies. Yep, you heard me. Everything dies, not even an atom maintains the same form for it's life time. Eventually, it splits and the original dies so two more can be made. So if we all die, no ones been here "forever." I should clarify that, no one or nothing. (We're getting there) So, we must have been created by something that has always been....I'm thinking the only thing or person that has always been is divine...so i'm thinking .... God. F. If God didn't want us to have proof, why allow authors to write the bible, which is a book completely about God, His Son, and the Holy Spirit? Hey, look at all the people that try to disprove the bible stories. For instance, there's a bible story in which a new king is elected after David to be king until a proper person was found. They didn't think this was true. What did they find? Only the scrolls detailing his time as king and his entire inaguration ceremony. Talk about hard evidence supporting the bible. G. Miracles. Like the shroud of Turin, the tilma of st. Juan Diego, which to this day survives even though it's been bombed, and a window cleaner accidentily dropped phosphoric acid on it. (No, i don't know why the window washer was using phosphoric acid.) That's enough for now.
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Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:41 pm
And here's something you both forgot. We are talking about Jesus here, not God.
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Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:06 pm
ok.... asking for proof that jesus existed is silly. You see, proof was meant to prove scientific concepts, such as 1+2=3. That can be proven, when most sciences have erred is when they started thinking they could use science to prove stuff about life. think about it, could any scientist actually PROVE that Love exists? or Joy? or..... how about Alexander the Great? proof is the results of concrete, testable, repeatable experiments with results detectable to the 5 senses of our body. So what if we have historical records saying he existed? so what if the remains of the empire he built exist still? so what if there are statues, stories, entire books about him? that PROVES nothing, the only reason we beleive Alexander the Great existed is we speculate that so many people could not have been lying. So... we beleive Alexander the Great existed, with no actual testable proof, which is ok, because you know what? none of us were alive back then, so none of us could have seen and talked to him.
Jesus existed because there are manuscripts about him and his followers, people died for him, are still dying for him. they tell stories about him, both from when he lived and now. Peoples lives are changed because of him, ask most of us, we'll tell you we've had personal experience with him. there are monuments to him (if a catholic cathedral isn't a monument, what is?) and if you want I can get out my books and prove to you that a lot of the above is a lot more credible then things we all commonly accept as absolute truth. I can't PROVE Jesus existed, but you know what? I beleive he did anyway, I talk to him a lot you see.
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Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:42 pm
Cometh The Inquisitor And here's something you both forgot. We are talking about Jesus here, not God. News flash. Jesus is God. Jesus <-> God <-> holy Spirit. Three divine persons, one divine nature. So if we prove God, we prove Jesus. Now that's a redundant sentence. Might as well say if we prove God, we prove God.
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Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:44 pm
dragonlove_48 ok.... asking for proof that jesus existed is silly. You see, proof was meant to prove scientific concepts, such as 1+2=3. That can be proven, when most sciences have erred is when they started thinking they could use science to prove stuff about life. think about it, could any scientist actually PROVE that Love exists? or Joy? or..... how about Alexander the Great? proof is the results of concrete, testable, repeatable experiments with results detectable to the 5 senses of our body. So what if we have historical records saying he existed? so what if the remains of the empire he built exist still? so what if there are statues, stories, entire books about him? that PROVES nothing, the only reason we beleive Alexander the Great existed is we speculate that so many people could not have been lying. So... we beleive Alexander the Great existed, with no actual testable proof, which is ok, because you know what? none of us were alive back then, so none of us could have seen and talked to him. Jesus existed because there are manuscripts about him and his followers, people died for him, are still dying for him. they tell stories about him, both from when he lived and now. Peoples lives are changed because of him, ask most of us, we'll tell you we've had personal experience with him. there are monuments to him (if a catholic cathedral isn't a monument, what is?) and if you want I can get out my books and prove to you that a lot of the above is a lot more credible then things we all commonly accept as absolute truth. I can't PROVE Jesus existed, but you know what? I beleive he did anyway, I talk to him a lot you see. if that's the case, why follow the law Jesus gave us? All your really doing is saying that Jesus is relative.
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