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Macaroni Jesus

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:02 pm


Whats a Mikvah? sweatdrop

It sounds like a baptism...

Im not a good jew, am I?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:53 pm


There's a reason it sounds like baptism. Baptism is a ritual stolen adapted directly from Judaism for Christian purposes.The philosophies and purposes of the two are different, however.

Baptism happens once in a person's life, generally, and is used explicitly and solely for the purpose of bringing the individual into the Christian covenantal society. It is said to wash away sins and make the individual spiritually clean in order to be able to serve Jesus as a newborn being for the rest of his or her life. Baptism is the act; the facility is called the church (building) or the font (actual body of water, if the water isn't a river or lake).

Mikvah is the name of the immersion facility (both the building and the body of water; also applies to natural bodies of water which are outside buildings), not the immersion itself. The immersion itself is called t'vilah (immersion). Instead of once in life, mikvah immersion takes place many times. Some people bring baby daughters for immersion as part of a b'rit bat, or simchat bat (covenant of daughter, or joy of daughter -- new ceremonies to welcome daughters into the covenant of Judaism, meant to be parallel with the circumcision of boys). I know one family that lets each daughter immerse once during the week before becoming bat mitzvah and once after her first menstrual cycle, whichever comes first. After that, a girl/woman doesn't immerse again until four (or fewer) days before her wedding. Then she counts her days... I'm not going to describe the feminine process here, but suffice it to say she immerses about once a month for the rest of her married life, barring pregnancy, until she is past childbearing age.

Boys and men immerse as well. Some only do so in the days leading up to marriage, while others do so in preparation for any important milestone, or right after an important milestone -- a birthday, an aliyah, starting a new tractate of Talmud study, completing a tractate, whatever. Others immerse every time they have an emission (again, I'm not going to discuss the masculine process here, but if you're male, PM a knowledgeable male on this guild and I'm sure he'll clue you in). Some immerse every single morning before Torah study; these tend to be Chasidim, but not always. Unlike women, men don't have to immerse singly. I've known communities in which all the students of a given rabbi will go and immerse in a group, then dress and go to Torah study; it's a very spiritual experience, I'm told.

Unlike baptism, mikvah is not meant to wash away sin or wrongdoing. There is a difference between sin, uncleanliness, and impurity. Sin means actively engaging in doing something wrong, or actively avoiding doing something that would have been the right thing to do, or even doing something wrong accidentally or because one didn't know it was wrong. Uncleanliness refers to physical dirt, grit, grime, sweat -- the filth of the physical world. Impurity is neither of these things, and it's not a great word to use as a translation for the term tum'ah (impurity) or tamei (impure), as contrasted with the terms tahor (pure) and taharah (purity). Unlike sin versus virtue or uncleanness versus cleanness, the status of tum'ah does not carry within it an inherent need for its reversal. The only real benefit to becoming tahor versus tum'ah is that once one is tahor again, one can enjoy marital relations with one's bashert. Every single time one immerses in the mikvah, one is reborn, as it were, as a brand new being, as pure as the day one was born.

But it does not free us from the obligation of correcting our misdeeds.(1) Judaism opines that wrongdoing cannot be erased, but can be corrected through sincere repentence -- being faced with similar circumstances that lead to a previous wrongdoing, but doing right instead -- and making amends. Not by washing in a baptismal font. (2) And rather than immersing only one time, we are reborn many times. (3) Also, we do not rid ourselves of wrongdoing by shifting the blame from ourselves onto a human or half-divine sacrifice. We, and we alone, carry our own responsibilities and answer for ourselves.

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Akhos

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:03 pm


Divash
There's a reason it sounds like baptism. Baptism is a ritual stolen adapted directly from Judaism for Christian purposes.The philosophies and purposes of the two are different, however.

Baptism happens once in a person's life, generally, and is used explicitly and solely for the purpose of bringing the individual into the Christian covenantal society. It is said to wash away sins and make the individual spiritually clean in order to be able to serve Jesus as a newborn being for the rest of his or her life. Baptism is the act; the facility is called the church (building) or the font (actual body of water, if the water isn't a river or lake).

Mikvah is the name of the immersion facility (both the building and the body of water; also applies to natural bodies of water which are outside buildings), not the immersion itself. The immersion itself is called t'vilah (immersion). Instead of once in life, mikvah immersion takes place many times. Some people bring baby daughters for immersion as part of a b'rit bat, or simchat bat (covenant of daughter, or joy of daughter -- new ceremonies to welcome daughters into the covenant of Judaism, meant to be parallel with the circumcision of boys). I know one family that lets each daughter immerse once during the week before becoming bat mitzvah and once after her first menstrual cycle, whichever comes first. After that, a girl/woman doesn't immerse again until four (or fewer) days before her wedding. Then she counts her days... I'm not going to describe the feminine process here, but suffice it to say she immerses about once a month for the rest of her married life, barring pregnancy, until she is past childbearing age.

Boys and men immerse as well. Some only do so in the days leading up to marriage, while others do so in preparation for any important milestone, or right after an important milestone -- a birthday, an aliyah, starting a new tractate of Talmud study, completing a tractate, whatever. Others immerse every time they have an emission (again, I'm not going to discuss the masculine process here, but if you're male, PM a knowledgeable male on this guild and I'm sure he'll clue you in). Some immerse every single morning before Torah study; these tend to be Chasidim, but not always. Unlike women, men don't have to immerse singly. I've known communities in which all the students of a given rabbi will go and immerse in a group, then dress and go to Torah study; it's a very spiritual experience, I'm told.

Unlike baptism, mikvah is not meant to wash away sin or wrongdoing. There is a difference between sin, uncleanliness, and impurity. Sin means actively engaging in doing something wrong, or actively avoiding doing something that would have been the right thing to do, or even doing something wrong accidentally or because one didn't know it was wrong. Uncleanliness refers to physical dirt, grit, grime, sweat -- the filth of the physical world. Impurity is neither of these things, and it's not a great word to use as a translation for the term tum'ah (impurity) or tamei (impure), as contrasted with the terms tahor (pure) and taharah (purity). Unlike sin versus virtue or uncleanness versus cleanness, the status of tum'ah does not carry within it an inherent need for its reversal. The only real benefit to becoming tahor versus tum'ah is that once one is tahor again, one can enjoy marital relations with one's bashert. Every single time one immerses in the mikvah, one is reborn, as it were, as a brand new being, as pure as the day one was born.

But it does not free us from the obligation of correcting our misdeeds.(1) Judaism opines that wrongdoing cannot be erased, but can be corrected through sincere repentence -- being faced with similar circumstances that lead to a previous wrongdoing, but doing right instead -- and making amends. Not by washing in a baptismal font. (2) And rather than immersing only one time, we are reborn many times. (3) Also, we do not rid ourselves of wrongdoing by shifting the blame from ourselves onto a human or half-divine sacrifice. We, and we alone, carry our own responsibilities and answer for ourselves.


is it true if someone is baptized they can't convert to Judaism?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:12 pm


Ok...way too long.

Condensed Cliffs Note form please? xd

Macaroni Jesus


ZonkotheSane

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:44 pm


Divash
I've immersed in rivers, lakes, oceans, outdoor swimming pools after a rain, a reservoir after a rain, and only once -- for my conversion -- in an indoor, specifically designed/built MIKVAH. I've done it in all weather. And yes, there are times I've had to do it in the daylight, because it wasn't safe to go at night, either because of an unsavory element frequenting the area after dark, or because the temperature dropped so low that it became a health hazard, or because the water was home to sharp objects and I needed to be able to see into the water to know where not to swim. And, being the only Jew for miles around when I visit my relatives (other than my bashert, who is an 'interested party' and therefore can't serve as a witness), I had to trust the word of my SO and several cousins, who didn't understand the law, but at least would say "Uh... yeah, your hair all got wet that time."

If it would be respected, I'd start a mikvah/niddah thread. What do you think, boys? Could we expect the males here to remain outside that thread in order that the women could discuss issues of mikvah and niddah without compromising our modesty?
you could have it in the staff forum stare
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:46 pm


Akhilles
is it true if someone is baptized they can't convert to Judaism?
anyone can convert, barring a few exceptions, as long as they're sincere.

ZonkotheSane


Divash
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:48 pm


Cliff notes: Read the first sentence. The rest, as even Hillel said, is commentary. (Now go and learn it, he added.)

No, it is NOT true that if you've been baptized, you can't convert to Judaism. Judaism accepts any sincere convert. But if you were baptized by your own choice, particularly if it happened in your adulthood when theoretically you should have known what you were committing to, you may be scrutinized, as the beit din and the Jewish community will rightly think, "How do we know she's more serious about Judaism than she was about her previous commitment to Christianity? How do we know she's not trying to become a Jew just so as to subvert the community towards Christianity from within our midst?'

There's a staff forum? And a non-staffer could be there, reading and posting?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:59 pm


Donovinhs Knight
Ok...way too long.

Condensed Cliffs Note form please? xd
it wouldn't kill you to read, you know stare

in a nutshell:

the basic concept of purification through immersion is the same, but with different baggage attached. for a real explanation, i'd have to explain tumah, and that's a real toughie. it's a kabalah thing, so i stay away as much as possible. anyway, t'umah is basicly the spiritual void that comes from loss of life. for example, a the dead body of a jew has the highest level of t'umah possible, whereas the dead body of an animal has a lower level.

the white and the red (i'm sure you can figure that out. and if you can't, you're not old enough anyway) both contain tremendous potential for life. consequently, when that potential is eliminated, it, and anything it touches, becomes ta'ameh, impure (this also depends on the level, or strength of tumah). total immersion in pure water, ie a mikveh, "purifies" the body. like i said, there's a lot of mysticism in this. also, the word impurity isn't right at all, but i've yet to find a more accurate analogue.

not that while submerged, one is usually in the fetal position.

ZonkotheSane


darkphoenix1247
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:42 am


Divash
Cliff notes: Read the first sentence. The rest, as even Hillel said, is commentary. (Now go and learn it, he added.)

No, it is NOT true that if you've been baptized, you can't convert to Judaism. Judaism accepts any sincere convert. But if you were baptized by your own choice, particularly if it happened in your adulthood when theoretically you should have known what you were committing to, you may be scrutinized, as the beit din and the Jewish community will rightly think, "How do we know she's more serious about Judaism than she was about her previous commitment to Christianity? How do we know she's not trying to become a Jew just so as to subvert the community towards Christianity from within our midst?'

There's a staff forum? And a non-staffer could be there, reading and posting?

There is a staff sub-forum, but non-crew are not allowed to access it, unfortunately.

We could give it a try in one of the other subforums, but I do doubt that somehow every male would be mature enough not to go in there and read it or something. I'll delete any posts that would be inflammatory or insensitive, but that still doesn't ensure any sort of privacy at all. xp

A random side-note: I found your post very informative and helpful, and please let me know if you object to this, but I copied and posted it until the Jewish Information subforum. sweatdrop

And to Knight: You did ask. xd
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:29 pm


darkphoenix1247
There is a staff sub-forum, but non-crew are not allowed to access it, unfortunately.

We could give it a try in one of the other subforums, but I do doubt that somehow every male would be mature enough not to go in there and read it or something. I'll delete any posts that would be inflammatory or insensitive, but that still doesn't ensure any sort of privacy at all. xp

A random side-note: I found your post very informative and helpful, and please let me know if you object to this, but I copied and posted it until the Jewish Information subforum. sweatdrop

And to Knight: You did ask. xd


Good point, about the privacy. Unfortunate, but at least any woman who's interested can check out http://yoatzot.org for more information. Men... please, show the maturity to avoid going there. If you want to know about women's private matters, ask your wife or your rabbi.

And yes, I'm delighted to have that posted to the subforum! smile Thank you, I'm honored.

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YvetteEmilieDupont

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:46 pm


Akhilles


is it true if someone is baptized they can't convert to Judaism?


no christians tell that to people whom don't wnat to be christians.

I've been told by two nuns and priest that no matter what I do when I die i'll still be cathlic even if by jewish law i'm jewish i'm still cathlic. I only wish I could tell them my theory of life after death, and then some. rofl


Oh and that's mean of the people to do in florida keeping people out of the mikveh. If I was there i'd yell at them, and tell them too how I feel.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:44 pm


YvetteEmilieDupont
Akhilles


is it true if someone is baptized they can't convert to Judaism?


no christians tell that to people whom don't wnat to be christians.

I've been told by two nuns and priest that no matter what I do when I die i'll still be cathlic even if by jewish law i'm jewish i'm still cathlic. I only wish I could tell them my theory of life after death, and then some. rofl


Oh and that's mean of the people to do in florida keeping people out of the mikveh. If I was there i'd yell at them, and tell them too how I feel.


pft; if Hell even existed, I've been told I'm going there by many different people. If every religion had their way, I think all of the world would be dead. xp

darkphoenix1247
Vice Captain


ZonkotheSane

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:28 pm


darkphoenix1247
YvetteEmilieDupont
Akhilles


is it true if someone is baptized they can't convert to Judaism?


no christians tell that to people whom don't wnat to be christians.

I've been told by two nuns and priest that no matter what I do when I die i'll still be cathlic even if by jewish law i'm jewish i'm still cathlic. I only wish I could tell them my theory of life after death, and then some. rofl


Oh and that's mean of the people to do in florida keeping people out of the mikveh. If I was there i'd yell at them, and tell them too how I feel.


pft; if Hell even existed, I've been told I'm going there by many different people. If every religion had their way, I think all of the world would be dead. xp
one of the big reasons i'm proud to be jewish.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:29 pm


darkphoenix1247

There is a staff sub-forum, but non-crew are not allowed to access it, unfortunately.
it just so happens that none of the staff is male stare

ZonkotheSane


nathan_ngl
Crew

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:36 pm


ZonkotheSane
darkphoenix1247

There is a staff sub-forum, but non-crew are not allowed to access it, unfortunately.
it just so happens that none of the staff is male stare
:ahem:
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