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 Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:18 am
I.Am Uh, even if you aren't physically harming a person, I would think that driving them out of business and ruining their lives is tantamount to it. And it's not as though they are going to be crying a whole lot if someone dies in the fire they start. Unless it's an animal. If abortion were criminalised, would you feel bad for the people who made their living providing abortions who now had to get other jobs?
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:36 am
if i may answer this question, absolutely not. they make their money by killing children. it is similar to asking if i would feel bad for arresting a hit man.
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:37 am
La Veuve Zin I.Am Uh, even if you aren't physically harming a person, I would think that driving them out of business and ruining their lives is tantamount to it. And it's not as though they are going to be crying a whole lot if someone dies in the fire they start. Unless it's an animal. If abortion were criminalised, would you feel bad for the people who made their living providing abortions who now had to get other jobs? That's the thing though. Eating animals and ranching is not illegal. And yes, I would feel bad that they had to find other jobs; Even though their job as an abortion provider is a bad one to me, I never feel good about people having to deal with unemployment. I would feel bad for the people and their families, having to go through a tough period, even though I wouldn't feel bad at all about the lack of abortions. But eating animals and ranching doesn't even have a chance of becoming illegal anytime in the near future. So... It seems a completely different thing to me. I don't support the firebombing of abortion clinics even though I want it illegal. Why should ALF or ELF be okay?
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:53 am
La Veuve Zin This pro-life vegetarian, who has definitely been "run over by the liberal steamroller" xd would like to mention that the ALF, (in general, as it's not a formal organisation but rather includes anyone like-minded,) does not approve of harming humans. Destruction of property, yes, but pretty much every ALF/ELF supporter views harming humans as bad as harming other animals. While they might torch someone's farm and drive them out of the business, they won't cause physical harm to the owners. And obviously, I see respecting the life of an oyster but not a human fetus as completely hypocritical. I don't want to get into a debate about vegetarianism here, though. The orginisatiosn may not, but you can't speak for some of the individuals who are in them. Sorry, I've heard of too many (proven) stories of ALF and ELF sending threataning letters to people, and a few even attackign them out side their homes. And ofcoarse, the orginisatriosn themselves have no problem with property damage and other illigle activity. And they don't just torch farms Zin, the tourch living buildings, apartments, and pharmestucisl builidngs that are developing medicine to help people. The heads of ALF, ELF, and PETA have pretty much all said it. "Even if animal testign found a cure for cancer or ades, we'd be against it."
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:52 am
La Veuve Zin I.Am Uh, even if you aren't physically harming a person, I would think that driving them out of business and ruining their lives is tantamount to it. And it's not as though they are going to be crying a whole lot if someone dies in the fire they start. Unless it's an animal. If abortion were criminalised, would you feel bad for the people who made their living providing abortions who now had to get other jobs? No, i'm sure they can find pently of other jobs. If they were real doctors and had medical training, i'm sure they'll find something. And what about the live and death cases like the mom is dying? I'm sure they won't banned those cases.
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:35 pm
I.Am Please don't take this the wrong way Pro-Choice vegetarians and vegans, but I'm curious: How do you console those two views? On one hand, you support the legal killing of human offspring, on the other hand, you are against the eating of meat. I know that many, if not most, of you do not shove the no-meat thing down our throats, but I still have to wonder how you can actively support the killing of humans, however young and undeveloped, while simultaneously being against the killing of animals. Even moreso I have to wonder about vegan Pro-Choicers. I mean, you won't even eat a chicken's unfertilized egg, but killing a human fetus is okay? What's up with that? Do you somehow justify the human fetus as being worth less then the chicken egg? And obviously, there are the Pro-Choice vegans who support groups like the Animal Liberation Front, who are willing to hurt humans in order to help animals escape captivity. How can you value animal life above human life to such an extent? It makes no sense. I know I made directed questions even though there's only one Pro-Choice vegan in the guild right now, but that's just because it's a simpler format for me to write in. Especially considering that I know there -is- one in the guild who can directly answer the questions. sweatdrop I was just wondering if this was specifically geared towards me. It's simple, really, I.Am a pervert xd Joking! Why am I pro-choice, and what does this have to do with it? For one thing, eggs. I don't consider a chicken's unfertilized egg a chicken. The reason I don't eat eggs (aside from below) are that the conditions that laying hens are kept in are horrible and etc. Basically your basic vegan ranting. And also, the animals are not feeding off me or anything, and they're not connected to me, causing changes, threatening my life, etc.etc. I have morals, you know. To me, your points are totally irrelevant, to me at least! xd Because that's not why I'm pro-choice, I'm not "devaluing human life" or anything or putting animals ahead of humans. My veganism is to reduce the suffering in the world, animals included. Oh yeah... As you know, I'm not your perfect physically anatomy specimen. I have a pelvic condition, minor heart condition, and yeah. Not only that, I have family history of... High chlorestoral Heart Attack Hypertension Cancer Diabetes and... The big fat bugger... LACTOSE INTOLERANCE! xd I can't take in dairy, I'm trying to avoid all those nasty stuff, especially the high cholersteral, and eating meat to me is the same as abortion to you.
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:38 pm
Pyrotechnic Oracle lymelady some are vegan/veggie because they think ingesting animal products is gross [/annoyingness] But killing your own offspring for your simple comfort isn't? confused Hahaha... I'm not here to debate, honey. If you want a debate, PM me or go to an actual debate. I'm not even going to try here. divineseraph they find the sight of blood and tissue flowing through a tube to be beautiful. Who? As far as I'm concerned, no pro-choicer I know, real life and Gaian, enjoys seeing that stuff. wink
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:32 pm
Oh yes...
And me not eating eggs has nothing to do with whether I consider it a chicken or not. Especially because it's unfertilized.
As stated above, I'm more concerned about the conditions of the hens.
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:37 pm
..Le Chat du Noir.. I can't take in dairy, I'm trying to avoid all those nasty stuff, especially the high cholersteral, and eating meat to me is the same as abortion to you. That's exactly what I'm saying, though. Why is it that animals should be protected, why is it that killing animals is tantamount to killing humans, but killing human fetuses is okay? No, the animal is not feeding directly off of you. The fetus isn't taking all that much from you. At the very least, not compared to what you would be taking from them. The point, though, is that, since you believe that animals deserve life, whether the fetus is a person or not should be completely irrelevant to you, because you support all lives, person or not. Unless they are human fetuses. I can somewhat understand using the "bodily integrity" arguments, but then again, that is largely about comfort. And if it's okay to kill human fetuses for comfort, why should it not be okay for me to kill animals for comfort? I'm not even just killing them; I'm also eating them, and using their fur or skin, preferably I'm also using their bones, I use their guts to make hagus and other sausages, their blood to make blood pudding, and so on and so forth. Unlike abortion, I'm not just killing them and throwing them away, I use every possible part I can. At least, that would be preferable for me. I'm against hunting for fun, by the way. I can understand the problems with conditions, but is that really better served by abstaining? Not everyone is going to abstain. I'm not going to abstain. I would support putting chickens in bigger pens and whatnot. I'm against animal cruelty. It's just not important enough to me for me to fight for it. And those are fine unrelated reasons too. Although, you know quite well that, since being pregnant would be a high medical risk for you, abortion would be an acceptable option to most Pro-Lifers, in your case. And no, it's not directed at you, although you were the one who made me think of it, I think. whee And obviously I was aware that you would be reading it.
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:20 pm
..Le Chat du Noir.. Pyrotechnic Oracle lymelady some are vegan/veggie because they think ingesting animal products is gross [/annoyingness] But killing your own offspring for your simple comfort isn't? confused Hahaha... I'm not here to debate, honey. If you want a debate, PM me or go to an actual debate. I'm not even going to try here. divineseraph they find the sight of blood and tissue flowing through a tube to be beautiful. Who? As far as I'm concerned, no pro-choicer I know, real life and Gaian, enjoys seeing that stuff. wink I asked a question where we coudl see it. i want an answer where we can see it.
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:44 pm
..Le Chat du Noir.. Oh yes... And me not eating eggs has nothing to do with whether I consider it a chicken or not. Especially because it's unfertilized. As stated above, I'm more concerned about the conditions of the hens. Oh noes! Are thre hens going to be brutaly vacuumed out of their safe little habitat before they got to read Kafka?
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:02 pm
I.Am ..Le Chat du Noir.. I can't take in dairy, I'm trying to avoid all those nasty stuff, especially the high cholersteral, and eating meat to me is the same as abortion to you. That's exactly what I'm saying, though. Why is it that animals should be protected, why is it that killing animals is tantamount to killing humans, but killing human fetuses is okay? No, the animal is not feeding directly off of you. The fetus isn't taking all that much from you. At the very least, not compared to what you would be taking from them. The point, though, is that, since you believe that animals deserve life, whether the fetus is a person or not should be completely irrelevant to you, because you support all lives, person or not. Unless they are human fetuses. I can somewhat understand using the "bodily integrity" arguments, but then again, that is largely about comfort. And if it's okay to kill human fetuses for comfort, why should it not be okay for me to kill animals for comfort? I'm not even just killing them; I'm also eating them, and using their fur or skin, preferably I'm also using their bones, I use their guts to make hagus and other sausages, their blood to make blood pudding, and so on and so forth. Unlike abortion, I'm not just killing them and throwing them away, I use every possible part I can. At least, that would be preferable for me. I'm against hunting for fun, by the way. I can understand the problems with conditions, but is that really better served by abstaining? Not everyone is going to abstain. I'm not going to abstain. I would support putting chickens in bigger pens and whatnot. I'm against animal cruelty. It's just not important enough to me for me to fight for it. And those are fine unrelated reasons too. Although, you know quite well that, since being pregnant would be a high medical risk for you, abortion would be an acceptable option to most Pro-Lifers, in your case. And no, it's not directed at you, although you were the one who made me think of it, I think. whee And obviously I was aware that you would be reading it. Because we're totally skipping around the bushes. No, I'm not putting animal life above human life. If a cow was attached to my uterus, I have no qualms of unplugging the life support. wink Also, you're completely running over the point that I have absolutely no qualms about you munching a cheeseburger, as long as I don't have to join you in doing so? That's pro-choice. Besides, what am I taking away from the fetus? Its chance to live? If so, then in that case, I'm so bad when I said I wouldn't down and dirty ******** you to produce more and more babies.
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:05 pm
King_Seth ..Le Chat du Noir.. Oh yes... And me not eating eggs has nothing to do with whether I consider it a chicken or not. Especially because it's unfertilized. As stated above, I'm more concerned about the conditions of the hens. Oh noes! Are thre hens going to be brutaly vacuumed out of their safe little habitat before they got to read Kafka? I'm not sure if I'm interpreting you correctly, but if their "safe little habitat" was somewhere inside my body, yes, yes, and for the last time, YESYESYESY. heart
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:06 pm
Pyrotechnic Oracle ..Le Chat du Noir.. Pyrotechnic Oracle lymelady some are vegan/veggie because they think ingesting animal products is gross [/annoyingness] But killing your own offspring for your simple comfort isn't? confused Hahaha... I'm not here to debate, honey. If you want a debate, PM me or go to an actual debate. I'm not even going to try here. divineseraph they find the sight of blood and tissue flowing through a tube to be beautiful. Who? As far as I'm concerned, no pro-choicer I know, real life and Gaian, enjoys seeing that stuff. wink I asked a question where we coudl see it. i want an answer where we can see it. My simple comfort? EXCUSE ME! I have hip, heart, and etc. conditions. Preserving my own life ain't a matter of my own comfort. Is watching me die a slow and painful death not gross? Psss, I'll tell you a little secret: I don't wanna die.
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:21 pm
Pyrotechnic Oracle ..Le Chat du Noir.. Pyrotechnic Oracle lymelady some are vegan/veggie because they think ingesting animal products is gross [/annoyingness] But killing your own offspring for your simple comfort isn't? confused Hahaha... I'm not here to debate, honey. If you want a debate, PM me or go to an actual debate. I'm not even going to try here. divineseraph they find the sight of blood and tissue flowing through a tube to be beautiful. Who? As far as I'm concerned, no pro-choicer I know, real life and Gaian, enjoys seeing that stuff. wink I asked a question where we coudl see it. i want an answer where we can see it. Oh yes. By the way, I'm not killing it, I'm just removing it from inside of me, like I would remove a tumor or something. Homicidal negligence? No, if I took out a bunch of tapeworms and left them on the floor, would I get arrested for animal cruelty? And anyways, the baby doesn't have any rights to my body. Are you saying you don't find the thought of forcing women to carry pregnancies to term and just dumping the babies off at an adoption agency and not bothering to check up with them at least a tad bit disturbing? And if you don't mind, I'd rather keep this in a separate thread unless if I.Am allows it to be in his thread.
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