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Hylonomus
Crew

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:10 am


Wolf3001
I did some research on knife attacks knife attackes are more deadly than gun shots also most attacks are on unsuspecting targets they didn't know there was a knife involved.


How can knife attacks possibly be more deadly then a gunshot? A gunshot isn't just a little ball of lead being pushed into your body... the gasses and force released from the shot tears a large hole through your insides... Have you ever seen a gunshot in a block of ballistic jelly? Imagine that in your body...

Now, yea... when it comes to to street combat, knife kills are much more common. However that's because it is illegal to carry a gun without special training and licensces. On the battlefield, (where martial arts are as real as it gets) it goes without saying that guns take the majority of the 1on1 kills.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:00 pm


I can't find what I had read befor a guy did a study and even did some stuff with a few cops who were attacked by a guy with a training knife that markes you. All the cops did not know there would be a weapon involved only 2 if I remember right relized there was a knife. One didn't know tell after the attack was made and one other didn't know untell he saw the video play back of the attack on him.

Knives are more likely to kill from what I have read some stuff sounds to be about equal. Most people attacked with knives don't know when they are attacked and from what I remember from what I read last time the wounds from a knife do something that makes them more deadly they bleed more or something. Any way depending on your ammo the damage would be diferent.


From what I have read you are more likely to die from a gun shot in the gut than from a kife stabb but in cases where you are in a knife attack you are more likely to be stabbed or cut multiple times and that makes them more deadly. I would say you are about as equaly likely to die from a gun or a knife but from what I have seen you have a better chance against a gun than an attack from a knife every thing I have read says you most likely wont know there is a knife tell its in you.
http://www.realfighting.com/0102/edgedwea.htm

http://timlambert.org/1993/10/knives-00000/

http://timlambert.org/1993/12/knives-00001/

Wolf Nightshade
Vice Captain


Wolf Nightshade
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:49 pm


Don't watch the last bit if you have a weak stomach.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8884586003342147853&q=knife

EDGED WEAPON TACTICS AND COUNTER TACTICS:





Edged weapons are amongst the most ancient of implements used by human adversaries engaged in interpersonal conflict. Their use tends to culminate in the premature extinction of one and sometimes both parties. Unfortunately the potential lethality of the blade is not always realized or taken into account when confronting a knife-wielding attacker. There is a commonly held view that a person armed with a knife is less dangerous than a person armed with a firearm. The truth is that within their practical ranges both weapons are capable of fatal life stopping wounds. Some interesting facts include:





U.K. studies:



* Edged weapon assaults are the most commonly used weapon for killing people (7 in 20)
* In half the incidents of muggings on men the offender is armed with a sharp instrument



North America:



* One in three chance that if faced with a subject who had an edged weapon, you will be attacked and injured
* Attacks with edged weapons usually occur when you least expect them
* In Victoria BC Canada, our police department has found an increase of 35% in the number of calls that they deal with where an edged weapon was involved
* In 1994, out of the 7 murders in Victoria, 6 were committed with knives
* The majority of “street” type people carry some kind of edged weapon be it legal or illegal.





FBI Statistics:



* Edged weapon attackers are responsible for 3% of all armed attacks of police
* Firearm attacks account for 4%
* Both of the above stats represent fatalities
* Subject shot, 10% die from their wounds
* Subjects stabbed, 30% die from their wounds





Calibre Press:



* Since 1980 the number of people routinely carrying knives in North America has increased by 92%











I have personally gathered research form around the world on edged weapon assaults and the following facts emerged during my research:





* The most popular assault technique utilized by the attacker was found to be the hammer strike – either straight down or diagonally
* The victim tends to squat in an effort to take a path which offers perceived escape
* Many people seldom saw the edged weapon that penetrated their body. They failed to recognize the danger cues due to faulty perception
* Knife attacks were found to be exceptionally accurate, to penetrate deeper that some bullets, creating remarkable permanent cavities and rip through numerous organs in one stroke
* In reality, within their respective ranges, knives are superior to firearms as far as lethality is concerned





Within its range, a Knife:



* Never runs out of ammunition
* Never jams
* Never misfires
* Rarely misses target
* Cuts bone, tendon, muscles, arteries, veins with one thrust
* Can bring about sudden shock, pain, and extended wound channels
* It has better stopping capabilities
* Is psychological defeating
* Has superior concealment capabilities
* It occupies a permanent wound channel until extracted, at which time, if the blade is withdrawn from a lung, consciousness is rapidly lost





I have also attended several autopsies involving edged weapon deaths and in speaking with Forensic Pathologists have found the following medical facts:



* Typical death of a stab wound in homicide cases is 1 inch to 1.5 inches through the rib cage
* In most edged weapon attacks the victim received multiple knife wounds. The usual cause of death are usually the last few wounds of the overall attack
* Even short bladed knives can penetrate the abdomen by 8-10cm
* 3cm allows penetration of the ribs
* 4cm allows penetration of the heart
* because of the small surface area of a knife, the amount of force per unit area is TONS per square inch





The above noted information shows the importance of training to deal with such encounters. A person’s ability to deal with such situations will be based on his/her TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE. Experience is something not easily acquired, proper training can save lives by preparing you both physically and psychologically. Remember that most edged weapon assaults take place unexpectedly and so quickly that it is not unusual for the defender not to have time to realize that an edged weapon is involved. The attacker who possess an edged weapon usually does not want to convey in any way that he has one, and will usually conceal it until such time as he can deploy it quickly against you. Although a reality, it is a rarity that the attacker will produce his weapon in full view prior to an assault.





As I continued to conduct me research into edged weapon assaults on both police officers and the general public I was also able to identify three common denominators that seem to be present in many edged weapon assaults:



* In most edged weapon attacks, the defender is already involved in the physical encounter way before he or she even has time to realize that a knife is being used
* Most defenders see a thrust or slice with a knife as just another punch or kick and not an edged weapon assault
* It was difficult if not impossible for the defender to differentiate between an attack with an edged weapon or an attack using hands of feet. This was especially true when the defender was not aware from the start of the assault , that the attacker had a knife





I’m a big believer in, “don’t tell me, show me” so in early 1992 I conducted an empirical video research study. I had 85 police officers participate in a scenario based training session where unknown to them, they would be attacked with a knife. The attacker, who was dressed in a combatives suit, was told that during mid way of the contact, they were to pull a knife that they had been concealing, flash it directly at the officer saying “I’m going to kill you pig” and then engage the officer physically. The results were remarkable:



· 3/85 saw the knife prior to contact

· 10/85 realized that they were being stabbed repeatedly during the scenario

· 72/85 did not realize that they were being assaulted with a knife until the scenario was over, and the officers were advised to look at their uniforms to see the simulated thrusts and slices left behind by the chalked training knives



When I reviewed the hours of video tape of the above noted scenarios, I also made several other interesting observations in how the majority of officers reacted to the attacks:

* most attempted to disengage from the attacker by backing away from the threat. This usually resulted in the attacker closing quite quickly with their victim
* Those officers that did engage the threat immediately, proceeded to block the initial strike of the attacker and then immediately began to grapple with the attacker using elbows and knee strikes, but FAILED TO CONTROL THE DELIVERY SYSTEM RESULTING IN A LARGE NUMBER OF LETHAL BLOWS WITH THE KNIFE.
* Most of the scenarios ended up on the ground





After making these observations, I began to ask myself why I was seeing the above noted reactions. In my research I had the opportunity to read an article authored by Bruce Siddle and Dr. Hal Breedlove entitled “ Survival Stress Reaction” . In this article Siddle and Breedlove sated:



“ research by numerous studies provide two clear messages why people will place themselves in bad tactical situations. The common phenomena of backing away under survival stress results from the visual systems deterioration of the peripheral field to attain more information regarding threat stimulus. Since the brain is demanding more information to deal with the threat, he officer will invariably retreat from the threat to widen the peripheral field. Secondly, the brains normal ability to process (analyze and evaluate) a wide range of information quickly is focused to specific items. Therefore, additional cues, which would normally be processed, are lost. This explains why people can not remember seeing or identifying specific facts which were relatively close to the threat.”





The above noted research by Siddle and Breedlove not only confirmed my findings but also answered why our officers were acting they were. It also explains why one officer, who had actually caught the attackers knife hand with both of his hands and was looking directly at the knife, stated “I didn’t see any knife” It was not until I showed the video that he believed there was a knife.





Based upon all the above noted observations, I began to research a number of edged weapon defensive tactics programs that were being offered to both police officers and citizen. I attended several programs across North America and in doing so, I found that many of the programs although practical in a training environment, were totally unrealistic for the reality of the street. Many of these programs had several pitfalls:





· Most assumed the defender knew that the attacker possessed an edged weapon. ( what good is this assumption when we know that the majority of attacks with knives the defender did not know the attacker had a knife)

· Most techniques being taught were to complicated for people to remember ( to many fine complex motor skills which we know do not translate when survival stress clicks in no matter how well trained)

· Most techniques neglected the not so frozen limbs which the attacker still possessed and would use if not neutralized.

· Most techniques being taught concentrated on controlling the knife hand rather than the delivery system. ( the hand moves faster than the eye in a spontaneous attack. As well if cut, blood is a very good lubricant and makes grabbing the knife hand, even with two hands, very difficult if not impossible. To replicate this, use some baby oil during your next edged weapon defensive tactics class)

· Most techniques being taught were designed to be used against a static (stemming) attack.. (Real knife assaults are not static but fluid and dynamic in nature)

· Most techniques were designed to be used against what I call wide “Hollywood” motion attacks. ( most knife assaults are short and multiple in nature)

· Most techniques were designed to be used under perfect conditions of the dojo or training studio. ( most would not work if fighting/rolling around in the mud, the blood, and the beer of an “open” rather than “closed” environment





When looking for a Realistic Edged Weapon Tactics/ Counter tactics Program you should ensure that you pick one that teaches:





1) AWARENESS STRATEGIES



2) REALISTIC HANDS ON COUNTER TACTICS WHICH FOLLOW THE S.A.F.E. PRINCIPAL. Simple Adaptable Fast and Effective







Awareness strategies start with the above noted information on stats and facts.





TYPES OF ATTACKERS:



There are two types of attackers that you will have to deal with, Skilled and unskilled. Although it is a nicety to know the difference between the two types of attacker, it is very important to remember that both are as equally as dangerous. Remember it is not the skill level of the attacker but rather the desperation factor that makes him so dangerous. As well, in a dynamic spontaneous assault involving an edged weapon, you will probably not have the time to assess your attackers skill level. This is why it is so important that any counter edged weapon program you use, it must work against both the unskilled and skilled attacker. I say:





IF THE SUBJECT PULLS A KNIFE CONSIDER HIM TO BE AN EXPERT







The best defense against an edged weapon is to not get into one in the first place. Watch for edged weapons, this means watching a person’s hands. I have stated for years that the only assumption I make in a fight is that the person I an dealing with may have a concealed weapon that I don’t see.



By being aware of the ways in which a person may deploy an edged weapon may give you the advantage to with the encounter. This means, get to know the technology available. Visit you local knife/ army surplus stores and see what is available. Also look into how this technology is deployed:



* Listen for the unsnapping of a button on a knife case
* Listen for Velcro opening
* Listen for the click of a lock blade
* Movement behind the back
* Drawing motion of the arm/elbow
* The way in which a person may be packing a visible knife. A buck knife case that is holstered with the snap opening down lets you know that this person had thought about using gravity to deploy the knife quickly.
* Palming





In my program I have over 50 slides of actual knife wounds that I also show to further bring to light the issue of awareness and respect for the blade.







TYPES OF GRIPS AND STROKES:





There are as many gripes and strokes as there are people carrying knives. Is it important to know and understand how an attacker may be holding an edged weapon when it comes to defense. NO !!!!! I believe that the only important thing for you to understand is that the attacker is attacking with a knife. Again, in a dynamic and spontaneous knife attack you will likely not know how the weapon is being held. So if you have learned a system of edged weapon defense that is dependant upon how the knife is being held, good luck using it in the real word !!!!!





WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU DO GET CUT:



* Do not panic
* Consciously make yourself breath slower (autogenic breathing)
* Inspect yourself and look for injuries seen and more importantly not seen
* Apply direct pressure to wounds
* If injury are to limbs, elevate if possible
* If you have a chest wound, seal it and protect your airway in case you go unconscious, you don’t want to drown in your own blood
* If you have a punctured lung, exhale first and use an air tight article to cover and seal the wound
* Mental commitment “ I’m going to Live”









PRINCIPALS OF PAT, WRAP, AND ATTACK EDGED WEAPON COUNTER TACTICS:





1) Respect the blade The person who attacks with an edged weapon has two incredible advantages.



* PSYCHOLOGICAL: has chosen to use the weapon ruthlessly
* PHYSICAL: usually has first strike advantage



Again remember, it is the desperation factor and not the technical skill alone that makes a person armed with an edged weapon so dangerous





2) Expect to get cut. You will likely get cut, bleed, may or may not feel pain. A program that teaches students not to expect this fact is NEGLIGENT. Your goal is to “WIN” notice I use the word “WIN” and not “SURVIVE”. Words are very powerful. The word SURVIVE is no different than the word “TRY”. Both of these words to the subconscious mind mean “FAILURE”. Our goal is to WIN, survival is a by-product of winning.



3) Neutralize the line of attack. In any kind of combatives it is important to get you body of the line of attack.. Remember in a knife fight you will get cut and stuck, the secret is to limit the amount/degree of this damage. Unlike a fist fight, you can not stand there and take multiple blows with a knife



4) Control the delivery system. In the system of Pat Wrap and Attack we do not play the knife hand but rather the delivery system ( arm/elbow) In hockey do you play the puck or do you play the man. You play the man why, the puck moves to quick. In a knife fight don’t visually lock onto the knife hand it moves far to fast when compared to the arm/elbow. We also do not attempt to grab the knife hand in a dynamic situation for the reasons that I mentioned earlier. Small target, slippery when blood is present Remember than most edged weapon deaths are associated with serious multiple blows. Why, person failed to control the delivery system. The delivery system is the arm (lever), if we can control the lever we control the blade. The only exception to this rule is in a static knife hold up where the knife hand is not moving and can easily be controlled with two hands.



5) Attack the attack.. I believe that so long as the attacker has the opportunity to continue his attack, he has a strong tactical advantage, with a strong psychological advantage as well. Both of these advantages must be neutralized as soon as possible by throwing the attacker on the defensive.







I have been involved in FOUR separate edged weapon attacks which I “won”, and I have had one person die in my arms from an edged weapon attack.. There are a lot of edged weapon defense programs out there that are designed to get you KILLED because they do not deal with reality. Do your homework. I have attempted to summarize some of the reasons for the development of my 8 hr Pat. Wrap, and Attack system in this post. This system is being used around the world and has saved many lives. Knowledge and the understanding of that knowledge is power.





Strength and Honor





Darren Laur

Integrated Street Combatives

Victoria, BC

Canada
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:24 pm


Wow that's intence!
i gotta re-do most of my self defence stratigys. (i focused on controlling the hand of the knife)

mindsage25


Lord_Quortez

PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:17 pm


actually some traditional martial arts have present day adaptations. it is true that military martial arts is powerful but there are some that are its equal. for example the skills tought in the to-shin do led my stephen k. hayes school teaches present day uses of traditional tactics and techniques. however i will not deny the use of a gun at long range or a knife at close range. both are deadly in thier own repects however in hand to hand some traditional martial arts is stilll practical
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:21 pm


I Live martail arts...but at the same time i doubt my own ability, so I train every day to get better, thats just my way.

Id like to belive that i can handle any situation so i or anyone around me wouldnt be in danger or be afraid in any given situation...military trainning would help alot! at least a bit on ease of mind or to at least know where i stand, but I wouldnt join the army or navy just for martail arts trainning (family would disown me)

mindsage25


Wolf Nightshade
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:12 am


You got to try to train like its real you may not win but if you train as close to what you know is real than you better your chances.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:58 am


The thing that video failed to address is that most officers wear Kevlar under their uniforms. Kevlar can stop a knife. The second thing is that you can retreat while drawing, and even in close range, I'd rather have a pistol then a knife.

Another thing that many police officers wear when dealing with the possibility of an attacker with a blade is kevlar gloves and sleeves. In fact, you can buy such equipment from US Cavalry for pretty cheap.

One thing that everyone should know about knife fighting is that when in a knife fight, you always get cut. That was said by the founder and leader of SEAL Team Six, who has killed and fought many people with knives, guns and his bare hands alike.

Hylonomus
Crew


Lord_Quortez

PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:04 pm


it is true that you WILL get cut in a knife fight. however there are certain ways to prevent them from being deadly. the primary stance of a present day knife fighter is the body turned at a 45 degree angle away from the opponent, the defensive hand strait up and down covering your midsection with your hand open palm facing you in front of your face. your arm and hand works like a shield. should the opponent strike you can move your arm in the way. yes it will probably get stabbed but if you do you can twist your arm locking the blade between the bones in your arm or hand. sickening yes but very practical. because yes you may be injured but now you have the knife and your opponent is defenseless.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:39 pm


Lord_Quortez
it is true that you WILL get cut in a knife fight. however there are certain ways to prevent them from being deadly. the primary stance of a present day knife fighter is the body turned at a 45 degree angle away from the opponent, the defensive hand strait up and down covering your midsection with your hand open palm facing you in front of your face. your arm and hand works like a shield. should the opponent strike you can move your arm in the way. yes it will probably get stabbed but if you do you can twist your arm locking the blade between the bones in your arm or hand. sickening yes but very practical. because yes you may be injured but now you have the knife and your opponent is defenseless.


except for the fact that you have viens in your arms that can cause you to bleed to death in seconds. There is no proper way to defend against a knife or gun without getting killed or sevearly injured.

Hylonomus
Crew


Lord_Quortez

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:55 pm


Hylonomus
Lord_Quortez
it is true that you WILL get cut in a knife fight. however there are certain ways to prevent them from being deadly. the primary stance of a present day knife fighter is the body turned at a 45 degree angle away from the opponent, the defensive hand strait up and down covering your midsection with your hand open palm facing you in front of your face. your arm and hand works like a shield. should the opponent strike you can move your arm in the way. yes it will probably get stabbed but if you do you can twist your arm locking the blade between the bones in your arm or hand. sickening yes but very practical. because yes you may be injured but now you have the knife and your opponent is defenseless.


except for the fact that you have viens in your arms that can cause you to bleed to death in seconds. There is no proper way to defend against a knife or gun without getting killed or sevearly injured.


i have been stabbed in the hand. it doesnt cause as much damage as most would think. as for the arms yes there are major arteries but you have alot longer than you think. if you think that an artery has been hit then you dont remove the knife. it acts like a sealent and even if the knife is removed you have anywhere between 30min-hour before you would die from loss of blood.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:02 pm


Not true. 90% of knife wounds are to the forearms*. When properly used, the knife cuts deep, and your skin and muscles split open like a ripe tomato. That bad of a wound to the viens in your forearms can cause death in under a minute depanding on the amount and severity of the wounds.

*In an actual knife fight. Most knife wounds are to unsuspecting people's body.

Hylonomus
Crew


lordlemming

PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:42 am


Wolf3001
I did some research on knife attacks knife attackes are more deadly than gun shots also most attacks are on unsuspecting targets they didn't know there was a knife involved.


In Kajukenbo, the fact that a person could be carrying a knife or other weapon is highly stressed because Professor Emperado's brother was in a bar fight and took out a guy but he turned and walked away and the guy got up and stabbed him in the back killing him. (Professor Emperado was one of the founders of the system.) So in all of our tricks, it is highly stressed that you end the trick by getting the person on the ground and get above their head so you can see their hands and deal with the situation accordingly if they pull out a weapon or try to get up.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:06 pm


I got something realy kick a** to show every one wile going through old magazines I read something about a shoking training knife so I looked it up.
http://www.shocknife.com/index.html

Wolf Nightshade
Vice Captain


Aiki-Hooligan

PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:36 am


Hylonomus
Shin2
In about 5 years I want to join the Navy and am wondering if they also practice Martial Arts.


Well... the Marines are a branch of the Navy. I'm not sure if the Navy teaches martial arts or not, I don't know how useful it would be on a ship. I'm sure all Military branches have some sort of basic form of unarmed combat.


I am sure they will have SOMETHING there. I can't imagine being on a big a** Carrier with NO kind of recreation and sports center. And also my ex step father used to do kickboxing when he was in the Navy. Sure that WAS back in the day but no less I am sure SOMETHING would be there. Basic training aside.
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The United Martial Artists Guild

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