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 Posted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:50 pm
Angel_at_Heart ok well I just wanted to say that I made a promise to myself a while ago that if I ever began to think that abortion is kinda maybe sorta ok I would google picture search the aborted babies and that will get me back in line. Sorry if this annoys anyone I just was thinking that as I read the thing.
Sorry, I just find them really... I don't know. They're unpleasant, and I don't care to look at dead children.
Not my shtick, really, if you know what I mean.
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:23 pm
Cyanna Exactly. "Don't like slaves? Don't have one." smile I have an LJ icon that reads "Against abortion? Don't have one! Against rape? Don't rape anyone! Against war? Don't start one!" Many pro-choicers legislate morality all the time: when they oppose the death penalty, when they oppose hunting, when they oppose the war in Iraq, etc.
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Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:27 pm
La Veuve Zin Cyanna Exactly. "Don't like slaves? Don't have one." smile I have an LJ icon that reads "Against abortion? Don't have one! Against rape? Don't rape anyone! Against war? Don't start one!" Many pro-choicers legislate morality all the time: when they oppose the death penalty, when they oppose hunting, when they oppose the war in Iraq, etc. Think you can send that icon to me sweatdrop
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Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:17 pm
After reading what you said in that new (put redundant) thread on abortion, that's a pretty understandable idea.
And you're right.
That's all.
No buts. None. I promise.
Sympathy is human.
I just have sympathy for the fetus. Perhaps you don't. You're still welcome here.
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Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:57 pm
kp606 After reading what you said in that new (put redundant) thread on abortion, that's a pretty understandable idea. And you're right. That's all. No buts. None. I promise. Sympathy is human. I just have sympathy for the fetus. Perhaps you don't. You're still welcome here.
Toxic read that post too.
And we were talking today.
And toxic has this effect on me. She makes me think about things I normally wouldn't.
And... I don't know.
My morals are with the pro-life side, that's obvious. I still know that the fetus is a person, and a life, and I treasure that it's a life.
But... my beliefs about putting judgement on others, something I uphold in the I want to live my life seem to be leaning more towards the choice side.
It's so... I dunno.
Me and toxic are going to talk about it more, I hope.
Cause when I talk to her, I have to think about what I'm saying, and it's kind of hard. XD
Well, thanks for understanding anyway, Kp.
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Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:32 pm
I hate judging other people, it makes me a very wussy Christian.... sweatdrop At least I follow "Judge not lest ye be judged." Prolife isn't about judging though. It's about saving. It's like a sinking ship. First thing I do is get people onto lifeboats. I don't ask whose fault it was that it sank. I don't tell them they have to go down with the ship. I tell them, this is how I can save you. Take it or drown.
Abortion's one of those things that victimizes women to me. I know a lotta people in here don't agree with me, but I have just as much feeling for the women and the generation of girls growing up in a world where they are just a body. Abortion has made it so that a woman is not a woman. She is an object. You can get her pregnant and if you mess up, well, abortion clinic right over there. you can have easy sex now and use women for sex without worrying. Girls are being treated as if they're obligated to be sexually active for their boyfriends. I can't tell you the number of people who've called me selfish for waiting til I'm married, I can tell you I have spent many, many tearful, agonizing nights thinking about how selfish I am to not give them sex. Why? IT's my freaking body. And the answer to "What if I get pregnant?" "Just get an abortion." It's making it harder for girls to say no. I stay strong, so far, because I'm lucky to have a stable family who supports me. How many people have a mother, father, brother, and sister all willing to to give you their support to help you stay true to yourself? I've been SO close to breaking. No. I don't like that, and I don't like it that there are girls out there who're being lied to that abortion is a safe procedure, that abortion is not taking a life. I don't like the lies, I don't like how women in general are being treated by the abortion industry. I pass judgement on the liars and the crooked people who lie to these people sell abortion as a safe, easy, harmless procedure. I pass judgement on those who turn women into things and not people, who turn fetuses into things and not people, who turn make this world a worse place to live in. I pass judgement on those who lead others astray. I do not pass judgement on the ignorant women who abort believing the lies. Only on the people spreading it, knowing deep down that they're just plain lying. Abortion as birth control is dangerous. It's not only danger to the fetuses, because that's just plain deadly, it's dangerous to the women as well. I hate victimizers. I've met many and I can honestly say the only people I've EVER hated have been victimizers, and I hate them with a passion. The victims I can feel sympathy for. That means women, not just fetuses. I am a woman. I know what it's like to have periods, I know the fear of becoming pregnant, I know how easy it is to buy into the lie and I know people who have abortions are not evil, awful people but human beings who've been led astray. They shouldn't let themselves become victims, but once they have, the only thing to do is get them OUT of it and prevent other people from being victimized. That is my goal. I don't want abortion ending just to save fetuses, as odd as that sounds, I want it to save girls and women in the world who need help and who suffer due to abortion, to men who find their children have been aborted without them having any say. The already born as well as the unborn.
I'm sorry, I know I get ranty. But...it makes me mad. How many people are hurt by it I mean. And I don't like victimizers. Why must people be hurt for pleasure? Not only the fetus. The woman is hurt. The man is hurt. Abortion just makes it all possible to worsen the cycle of abuse and I hate it.
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Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:57 pm
I think I understand what you're all going through. When faced with people who outnumber you in debating, anywhere from online to the real world, when many disagree it makes you feel like you're wrong.
It's what I call "mob mentality." I haven't really been posting against them on ED, mostly because it sickens me to argue with people who claim that they will listen when all they look for is to change your argument.
I can understand a lot of the pro-choice arguments are very well thought out, such as a "women's right to choose." Or that no one should be able to impose their beliefs on others. However, I feel that even though some of us like myself are being attacked on ED on not only an idealogical, but a vehement level as well, we musn't just change our minds.
Arguing things like abortion is murder or the child has a right to life won't sit well with those that are pro-choice.
But you have to remember one thing, and remember it well, like them we have a right to express our beliefs. I know that a lot of those who are pro-choice will say things such as "leave us alone," or "it doesn't affect you." "Don't interfere with our lives."
If they have the right to express hatred for an individual, or a being that isn't born, we have a right to express the concept that they are wasting life. By saying we should be quiet, or change our support because we are interfering with their lives would be a lie, because of the following reasons:
1. If they have the right to show such disconcern for our beliefs, they obviously don't have concern over much else.
2. Whether or not the Fetus should be considered a human or a citizen with rights can be either based on Jus Solis or Jus Sanguines.
Jus Solis defines a citizen as "by the soil," born on this soil, while Jus Sanguines defines a citizen "as by the blood," or by the parents national blood.
Before getting into this argument however, consider that the even though the child may still be in the womb, the mother's blood runs through it like it is it's own blood, based on the constitution, it's by the blood. Though pro-choice liberals will say it's not grounds, it is another constitutional loop-hole.
3. Based on the concept of right to privacy, pro-choice arguments focus on how the mother's body is only hers. And that the potential life does not deserve to live despite the fact it developed on the actions of the consenting adults. I know the rape argument is used a lot here, but since rape pregnancies are rare, the substance of the pro-choice argument lacks concrete back up.
4. Instead of focusing only against abortion, perhaps it would be better to focus against abortion as a form of birth control. Most people whom I've met that are pro-choice do not believe it's right to use Abortion as a form of birth control. This way, instead of focusing against only the concept that abortion is bad, or that the fetus deserves a life, we'll focus more on the aspect that based on ethics of responsibility, the man and woman who have sex (even with contraceptives) should also accept the responsibility of the failure of contraceptives when it comes down to the small chance of pregnancy.
5. The main argument I get from Pro-Choice is "woman's body, woman's choice." And the only argument that they perceive coming from the Pro-life is "Don't do it because it's wrong." Unfortunately, the opinions of those who are pro-choice won't change. I'll tell you this now, they aren't the ones who can be swayed, it's usually us who can be swayed to think differently.
Now, I had to write this off the back of my hand, and I'm not sure how well it will be accepted by you guys, nor do I know if it will make you think more about things before just giving up.
What I'm just saying (and hoping) is that instead of just being discouraged from the left-wing liberals on the issue, we should be analyzing the constitutional laws, culture, ethics, and many other aspects. The fact is that most people don't really take a side when it comes to abortion, and those are the people to be talked to if they are given a question on the issue.
Just think, dream, and never give up.
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Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 4:42 pm
Mcphee i've been thinking about this for awhile.
Pro-life and pro-choice are objective arguments. The objectivity lies in whether or not you believe the fetus is a human being.
From what you've said here, you DO in fact believe in the huamness of the fetus, but don't believe in forcing your beliefs onto the pro-choiers.
For one, it's self-refuting. To tell someone that Abortion is wrong and have them say "no it isn't" is a simple exchange of ideas. But quite ironically, the pro-choice somehow are able to legistate their beliefs. How is this so? In addition, should you come about and say you are pro-life, they tell you that you can't force your beliefs on them. Yet you have to accept theirs as law.
But for two, it's all about what's inside of us. If you see an orange cow underneath the window in the corner, yet no said cow exists, that doesn't make you wrong. You believe it's right. One could call you wrong from within themselves, but the over all idea, they can't say you're wrong. That's your belief, and it should be sacred to you. And you should be allowed to express it because that's what you feel.
If you really are pro-life, it isn't about forcing a woman to do anything. It's just about protecting the child. No pregnancy is unavoidable (conditional of course). It just seems depressing how one can be pro-life yet still thinks about woman's rights.
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Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 4:59 pm
kp606 But for two, it's all about what's inside of us. If you see an orange cow underneath the window in the corner, yet not said cow exists, that doesn't make you wrong. You believe it's right. One could call you wrong from within themselves, but the over all idea, they can't say you're wrong. That's your belief, and it should be sacred to you. And you should be allowed to express it because that's what you feel. what?
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Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:06 pm
lymelady kp606 But for two, it's all about what's inside of us. If you see an orange cow underneath the window in the corner, yet not said cow exists, that doesn't make you wrong. You believe it's right. One could call you wrong from within themselves, but the over all idea, they can't say you're wrong. That's your belief, and it should be sacred to you. And you should be allowed to express it because that's what you feel. what? The fact you see a cow, and someone else doesn't, doesn't make you wrong. That's all.
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