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 Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 4:28 am
windswept_fury redem None of this has any bearing on the validity of your claims. It is simply your story. Doo yuo think I'm stupid? I told you that from the beginning. I know you did. I'm clarifying with respect to my rest. i.e. I wasn't going to consider your backstory when reading the rest of your post. windswept_fury redem You feel it to be true, but, rationally, you cannot know. look, you can pull all the trump cards you want, but it's not gonna work. You don't understand, nor will you. It's not something I can explain. I know God is real. I don't know how i know, but I just do. I was simply pointing out that the feeling of knowledge is not the same as actual knowledge. People have been deluding themselves about many things for millenia. Saying you "Know" isn't an argument for the existance of God, merely the reason for your belief. windswept_fury redem So you have a vested interest in continued belief, i.e. that a lack of belief will leave you feeling vulnerable. Now you have assumed too much. You need to look at this from my point of view as well, even if you find it faulty. If I didn't believe in god, i wouldn't find th world worth anything. I wouldn't see a reason to get out of bed. Maybe i would feel vulnerable, but not necessarily. The world is corrupt, my beliefs give me hope. What does evolution give you? Logic? Sometimes things aren't logically explained. Evolution gives me nothing. It's not meant to. It's simply what seems to fit the available evidence best. windswept_fury redem Of course, but I want real, verifiable, proveable protection, not the illusion of it, of invisible protection. It's only an illusion because you think it is. Of course you're not going to feel it if you don't believe it. That should read: not the illusion of it, or invisible protection. Typo, my bad sorry. The or was to cover both possibilities, i.e. both the existance, and non-existance of God. windswept_fury redem You speak for yourself here, I live without faith. I live with what my senses tell me, and base my world view on that. I speak for all other Christians here. We are called, whether you like it or not, to live by faith. your senses include your feelings, which isn't always good to trust. Thus, you run the risk of being a corrupt person. I don't particularly trust my feelings. But how does living without faith risk me becoming corrupted? windswept_fury redem Showing that the bible is more of less unchanged is not the same as showing it to be true, nor is showing it to contain small truths. That is showing it to contain real place names. Because for someone to write a bible without any divine influence, they would obviously use the names of people and countries and cities which exist. Otherwise it would be an obvious fraud. Were you around to verify the names? Did you ever consider that empires rose and fell, cities disappeared, were wiped out, or renamed in the 2000 year period since then? Err...I suggest you re-read what I wrote. I conceeded that the bible contains the names of people, places, empires etc... which actually existed. I Also said that it didn't matter.
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Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 4:18 pm
Many satansists don't actually believe in god, satan, or any other deity. It's more of a code for living than a religion; satan is a fictional role model in that he refused to bow to authority. Personally I don't feel a need for religion in any form. Funny, I still think of myself as being very weak and inferior to most other people. neutral
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Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 4:26 pm
Also, I think that a major reason that so many people feel a need for religion (it's not just upbringing, considering how many people are raised in religious homes and then go on to live areligious lives, and people who grow up with no religious influences and later convert) is that without it, they'd have to face the reality of life and its infinite pointlessness. Many people would lose the will to get up every day if they truly believed that life was pointless and they'd just rot in their graves after death. I think it has a lot to do with our dissatisfaction with our one crappy allowed lifetime. You get what you get, and too bad if your parents abuse you or you end up prostituting yourself to buy crack and get murdered at the age of 24. The prospect of an afterlife gives people hope that the one life they have isn't the best they're ever going to get.
And people don't like to believe they're alone. It's comforting to think of some deity that at least cares about its creations to some extent.
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Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 8:18 pm
hey soggypicklemuncher. i like your name. ^_^ [/non sequitur]
to comment on what you said, i have the same ideas as to why people look to religion. i was asked by my mentor what i think about life and i said that there was no purpose to it. if i died and everyone forgot about me, i would be okay with that. why should i care if my memory lives on? i'm dead. my mentor was a bit taken aback. i'm not positive about what his beliefs are, but i know he fits into the right wing, conservative group. it's not nice to label people, but he calls me a liberal, so that's what i call him. anyway, i think it's more important to live life as best you can because you only have one life. to know that this is the only time you will make a difference in the world is a tremendous notion. maybe some people aren't up for it or maybe they think that there's no way life could be any better (from a pessimistic point of view); it's no reason to search for a reason why you're here. that makes you just think that you're better than everyone or animals too. my mentor falls under this category.
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Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:51 pm
I've found that one of the best ways to compute this entire Religion versus Anti-Creationism concept is to actually merge the two into one. If you think about the "afterlife" or rather even this life in the way that I do, it actually tends to make sense.
If we were to stretch forth one of our hands to reach into the life of an ant and move a massive stick from his path, no doubt if he had the intelligence/sentience that we have, he would consider it the work of a higher power, which we could appropriately be called compared to him. Likewise, if Ilook at the earth from the standpoint of a higher power myself, I tend to notice that it is more fitting to describe it as almost being "The School of the Gods". The widespread concept of Christian religion focuses around a key concept, and that is the "chain of existance" as I like to call it:
-> People are in heaven, people come to earth, people are damned/saved, their souls are sorted according to what they learned/repented for, people return to God and live in happiness forever.
I have to agree with every anti-creationist in this regard when I say that it sounds utterly incredulous and ridiculous. However, try to look at it from this point of view:
-> God lives a life like ours as a man on a different "earth", God learns "religion" and dies to meet his maker, another God before him, God is told that because he now understands the cycle of things he shall create a universe of his own, God creates earth using power/technology higher than man's, and then creates the first humans. These humans are told about their "God", and are instructed to learn what he learned so that they can return to him in happiness... and also to move on down the line to create their OWN worlds, repeating the cycle.
If you look at it my way, it almost makes sense that we could be compared to the ants, who are amazed by what is a simple act for us. It's even been proven in less technologically developed nations that something such as a computer is considered either witchcraft, or even "an act of God" itself, even though it is commonplace for us. Likewise, God could have access to technology that we may even discover for ourselves one day, with which he can do acts that we never dreamed of.
We've already created life ourselves in test tubes; we can move entire mountains with excavators, and we can also obliterate anything with the utmost fury of a nuclear warhead. To a certain lesser extent, we already have the "power of God" ourselves.
Just because someone has better understanding of the universe doesn't always mean they are a supreme being. God may have been a human once just as we are now, and we may discover His same technological advances ourselves one day.
Sorry about talking your ears off. biggrin
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:58 am
gigacannon People rarely decide to join a religion out of fear. Most religious people are simply instructed that certain tenets of the religion are true when they are young and gullible. They simply never drop the religion. In the case of Christianity, they are often taught that faith is a good thing, and thus reasonable doubt is evil; this is why people don't doubt their religion. It has nothing to do with being weak. Some religious people such as myself came to the conclusion on religion because we feel that in some form or another, every person is deceived into their own reality and perceptions... let me explain... The world in theory has many different minded individuals in it, yet each individual is nothing but another entity living pointlessly in a world that is very temporary. Each person, when raised thinks certain things, based on social influences, societal standards, or even from the many people around them, this influence makes them who they are... The idea that there is no god or diety would in theory make sense if man were not intelligent. However... man, of all the animals created is the ONLY one of enough intelligence to question why or how things in society go about. The simple fact humans are the only ones who can think makes for a lot of questions... plenty of them that most evolutionists cannot find the answer to, only theorize about. This isn't to say that they are wrong, it's to state that regardless of who says what, every person is nothing but an influence in society by others. As though everyone would indeed be a mindless drone created by the world around us. If this is the case, each person is merely a dream, or a being locked into their own form of reality away from others. The interactions between different peope interlock their realities... and therefore make things different... And with these different realities come different foundations of thought. Not just different thoughts, but completely different structures by which thought itself is processed and idealized. With that out of the way... In the concept when it comes to religion, just like Evolutionists, those in religion are also seeking the truth. It has become apparent from the many arguments that neither evolutionists nor creationists know the truth. The reason many people stick religion, is because in their own perception or built reality, they believe God is the truth... in my own perception of reality based on the influence and social structure of which I was raised in, God is the only truth... in your perceptions of reality, some influence have different effects because of past influences and experiences... since there are literally trillions of people who come across an infinity of different situaitons throughout their lives... Each influence makes an impact, and each unique impact makes each person distinct in both genetics and personality. With this in mind, the perception of people who are religious as weak would be a reality only to yourself. Your perception is that your way is the only way, while ours is that our way is correct, and therefore in essence, we are only making statements on evidence only our side or ourselves believe in, which are not universally accepted by all. You can believe what you want, that's your perception of reality, mine... is that God is the truth.
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:46 pm
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:59 pm
FreeArsenal, I cannot agree with most of your points.
Humans are the only surviving intelligent animals on the Earth. But there have been distinct species of humans in the past, such as the Neanderthals.
According to accepted anthropaleontology, we are releated to Neanderthals in the same way that lions are related to tigers. That is, we had a common ancestor. This does not change the fact that both our species and the Neanderthals were intelligent.
Thus, to claim that the existence of only on intelligent species suggest that there is a creator deity is a fallacy, because the premise is untrue.
I don't think I agree with your other points, but I do not fully understand what you are trying to say. Could you explain yourself in simpler, more consise words?
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Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:48 pm
FreeArsenal gigacannon People rarely decide to join a religion out of fear. Most religious people are simply instructed that certain tenets of the religion are true when they are young and gullible. They simply never drop the religion. In the case of Christianity, they are often taught that faith is a good thing, and thus reasonable doubt is evil; this is why people don't doubt their religion. It has nothing to do with being weak. Some religious people such as myself came to the conclusion on religion because we feel that in some form or another, every person is deceived into their own reality and perceptions... let me explain... The world in theory has many different minded individuals in it, yet each individual is nothing but another entity living pointlessly in a world that is very temporary. Each person, when raised thinks certain things, based on social influences, societal standards, or even from the many people around them, this influence makes them who they are... The idea that there is no god or diety would in theory make sense if man were not intelligent. However... man, of all the animals created is the ONLY one of enough intelligence to question why or how things in society go about. The simple fact humans are the only ones who can think makes for a lot of questions... plenty of them that most evolutionists cannot find the answer to, only theorize about. This isn't to say that they are wrong, it's to state that regardless of who says what, every person is nothing but an influence in society by others. As though everyone would indeed be a mindless drone created by the world around us. If this is the case, each person is merely a dream, or a being locked into their own form of reality away from others. The interactions between different peope interlock their realities... and therefore make things different... And with these different realities come different foundations of thought. Not just different thoughts, but completely different structures by which thought itself is processed and idealized. With that out of the way... In the concept when it comes to religion, just like Evolutionists, those in religion are also seeking the truth. It has become apparent from the many arguments that neither evolutionists nor creationists know the truth. The reason many people stick religion, is because in their own perception or built reality, they believe God is the truth... in my own perception of reality based on the influence and social structure of which I was raised in, God is the only truth... in your perceptions of reality, some influence have different effects because of past influences and experiences... since there are literally trillions of people who come across an infinity of different situaitons throughout their lives... Each influence makes an impact, and each unique impact makes each person distinct in both genetics and personality. With this in mind, the perception of people who are religious as weak would be a reality only to yourself. Your perception is that your way is the only way, while ours is that our way is correct, and therefore in essence, we are only making statements on evidence only our side or ourselves believe in, which are not universally accepted by all. You can believe what you want, that's your perception of reality, mine... is that God is the truth. And yet you'd argue against people whose evidence actually does apply to the world YOU live in?
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Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:02 am
This is so funny to read. I do believe that religion is simply fabricated stories to explain and give answers to questions that people back then couldn't normally answer. But when it comes down to it, someone must be wrong. And just cause you have more proof on your side does not make you completely right. (am not saying that you are wrong) But of course. If you believe in god then you must also believe that we are the only beings in the universe or if there are aliens then they would look exactly like us because as the bible says that man was created in gods own image. So why would there be other species of equal intellegence to us out there, that don't look like us, if god exists. And then of course wouldn't they have their own religion that conflicts with ours.
And this would justify why some christians don't believe in other life on other planets.
So in a way that would justify why religion is wrong. But that does say that their isn't some higher up being that created all this from nothing. He may not have given us a purpose or a reason except maybe to entertain.
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Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:09 pm
In truth, there is no such thing as 'religion'. People come up with many different definitions of the word 'religion', yet people cannot agree.
At best, I'd venture that religion is nothing more than socially acceptable stupidity.
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:09 pm
I don't think all religious people are weak, it depends on the individual. But I do agree that religion isn't as important as they think it is. Simply believing a incert god-like name that people believe in* isn't going to help you get your laudry done, nor is it going to end world poverty or violence. I think beleving in "god" isn't nearly as beleving that cheese will one day rule the world. domokun but that's just me. crying
but those stupid retarded religious people who thinks that us non- *incert thingie that people in different religion believes in* believers are monsters whom betrayed *incert thingie that people in different religion believes in* are evil assholes who will die a painful death are just plain idiots.. twisted to them all!
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:29 pm
Religion is indeed for the weak, and most people are weak. For example, I met a guy a few days ago that would have destroyed himself if he didn't find Christ and AA. And you know what he said? That is what HE needs to keep from the drugs and drinking, and that other things might work for other people.
Some people might have to go to Islam or Judaism with strong moral guidelines to give them guidance.
Some might go to Buddhism because they need meditation and clarity of mind.
Religion isn't just about god or no god, salvation or whatnot. It's about giving structure for those who need it.
Atheism is a religion as well, hate to break it to you. It's a belief that there is no god, when such a concept cannot be proven or disproven. Atheism can give a person a sense of controlling your own destiny, and self-reliance.
The problem with religion is some think one religion is better than another. Like a bunch of Atheists spouting that they're the best because they don't believe in a god. (religion is for the weak) Or a bunch of Christians berating people saying they have to get their act together or they are going to hell.
I believe what I believe, and as long as no one else is getting hurt (going around butchering people or something like that) because of their religion I don't care what they think.
Those that say religion = weakness are just as bad as the fundies.
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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:27 pm
I totally agree with you, Christianity(other religions too) seems to be a thing that a people can just believe without question to be the absolute truth when they feel bad or scared in life. Because of what Christianity promises, they will stick to it and wait for "God to make everything better" but you know, like they say, your life is what you make it.
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Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:58 am
I think we can all agree that there are many weak people who are religious.
But I am pretty sure that they are not weak because they are religious, it's simply an innate character flaw within them.
I personally know quite a few strong religious people, ((In terms of being the opposite of weak)), there are also some in this Guild and across Gaia in general who are both religious and very strong minded. People of integrity and honour.
For the weak religion offers a safety blanket, a relationship with the powerful, much like the relationship most children have with their parents. Many religions even refer to their particular Deity/Deities or their spirits as parents. In christianity they sometimes call God the Father. Well catholicism anyway. Or in ancestor worshiping religions they literally believe that those they worship are parents, uncles, great grand parents etc...
These are comfortable thoughts, to those of us who do not believe in God...Imagine what that must feel like, the feeling that there is a reason, even if it is one you cannot fathom for all the suffering and all the bad things to happen in your life.
I suppose you could boil my point down to;
Religion itself is not weakening, but many weak people are drawn to it.
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