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Sheramaile... yes, it's still wrong to kill them. Killing is wrong, it doesn't matter what color you paint it, be it 'legitimate' war or to 'save' other people. Save a life by killing a life... what buisiness do individual people have deciding these things? They tend to make it their buisiness... hence we have so many killers in the first place. Course it's more complex than that, but... maybe that discourse'll come later. whee

Also, just because there will always be killers is not an excuse to abandon the ideal of not killing under any circumstances. Similarily, just because there will probably always be war is not an excuse to abandon the philosophy of pacifism.

Aeonian.life, I'll concede the Biblical argument because as I lack expertice, I have no place to question anything that you're saying. I think the answer probably lies somewhere between these two. There are some who fixate on the death aspects and others who fixate on the living aspects.

I don't remember mentioning pro-lifers in terms of abortion. We aren't talking about abortion here. I meant pro-life in the LITERAL sense, so completely and utterly ignore any connotation the word has with abortion arguments for that wasn't intended. Unfortunately, since people are so obsessed with the abortion issue it's nearly impossible to speak of being "for life" and not get people thinking "OH! ABORTION ISSUE!" (sighs) So... that was a totally unintended reading, so we can let that tangent drop in favor of the larger issue at debate here. 3nodding I'm sure most of us here are sick of abortion arguments anyway.

I apologize -- I made some uncalled-for generalizations.

Any argument made straight from the Bible is an iffy one -- the Christian Bible is a piece of text which openly contradicts itself on more than one occasion.
(A famous scholar in the middle ages would have his students debate opposite sides to controversial issues, and he would provide each side of the argument with quotes directly from the Bible.)
Personally, I believe that using the Christian Bible for anything more than a general guide to life is irrational.

I believe that if God exists, they are a perfect being.
I believe that a perfect being would not be so selfish as to create life in order to worship and glorify them.
Also, if I am mistaken in my beliefs, then a perfect being could forgive me.
(If they don't, I suspect I wouldn't enjoy their company.)

A common misconception is that spirituality and religion are one and the same. I disagree with this myth.
I also disagree with your implications that morality is in order to glorify a deity.
I believe that morality leads to spirituality and purity of the spirit -- thus, a more fulfilling existence.

I am also of the opinion that purity of the spirit can be achieved without the worship and glorification of a deity.
To me, it is like claiming that a book cannot be read unless it is adorned with the proper cover.

When I said that existance becomes empty for many religious folk, I meant to say this:
Many people of religious tendencies live life without ever questioning their faith.
These people base their entire lifestyle upon their religious ideals.
These people usually believe what they believe because this is what they've been told to believe. They have no real basis for their beliefs.
To me, it seems irrational to base your entire life upon beliefs that have no solid foundation.
There should be a point in everyone's life when their beliefs come into question. From there, they will discover the truth.
When these people have discovered a truth, they have a foundation for their beliefs - and they may defend these beliefs soundly.

I believe that life is empty unless you live it according to your beliefs, and not the beliefs of others that have been imposed upon you.
Before you can be certain what beliefs you truly hold, you must embark upon a spiritual journey, which starts with doubting your faith.
This is the leap of faith.
I believe that the Christian Bible states that God frowns upon blind faith.
Doubt your faith, seek the truth, and open your eyes.


-Alezunde

P.S. I apologize for getting off-topic.

Starlock, I am sorry for assuming what you meant. Generally it is used in terms of abortion is all.

Alezunde, I did doubt my faith, that is the faith of my father, atheism. There are contradictions between New and Old testament, but that is because laws changed. However, where are there other contradictions? (I would honestly like to know)

God is certainly a perfect being - though I do not find him creating us to be selfish. Secondly, as we are imperfect we cannot know God's reasons, we are finite.

I do center my life around my faith, and find it extremely fulfilling. What do you believe to be the 'purity of the soul'? To me, humans are sinners, we are a fallen world. Only, and yes ONLY, God can make us pure.

You also mention 'a truth'. I believe in one absolute truth - I do not see the concept of 'everyone is right'. There are relative truths, such as literary analysis. If you can provide enough evidence to support your claims, yes, you are correct. However, the universe, as a whole has one Truth - its one past, present, and future. To me, the existence of time forces such a truth.

Wow, so many good replies I don't know where to start! Man, this NEVER happens in ED! (laughs) I love this Guild...

Alezunde, great stuff in that long post of yours, but as it is a tangent, I'm going to let that sit for now. Maybe you could start up a new thread related to some of the issues you discuss in that post?

Sheramaile, to address your example again about the kids being shot, there is justification for protecting those under risk of immediate harm. This does NOT include killing them. It is not hard to protect people without killing this single attacker. You can wound, or you can just plain evade that person. Or you can call the authorities who can deal with it better than you. You were really quick to mention killing this attacker, when this should be absolutely the last resort and ideally, unintentional. So in a sense you're right, that sometimes extraordinary measures are required. But it makes me very sad that this ever becomes the case. It just plain shouldn't happen.

ImNotaFasionStatement, It's nice that the grudge issue was braught up. Holding anger in the heart only tends to poison it and eat you up inside. Steal away your love and compassion. Some, who get really used to this, loose their compassion and become sociopaths. In many ways, the best weapon you have against someone else is to love them. Have someone who is making you mad? Best way to get at them is to treat them with the same respect and kindness you do everyone else. It's really hard to be angry at someone when they treat you like a queen or king. It takes a lot of self-control and discipline to do this sort of thing, but it works.

There are other ways to protect individuals from immediate harm from an attacker than just to kill the attacker - the reason I think people should learn self defense. Of course I wouldn't want my family killed at all - that's why I'm precausious with everything, doors locked, alarm system, self defense. I wouldn't ever own a gun so I would never kill a person. I hunt but only with bows and I have a hard time with that yet. If that wouldn't work there's always the authorities who can do their job of stopping the attacker without killing the attacker. In my opinion, though it would never happen because the world is already failing at doing anything for peace or kindness or making living possible for many people, people need to stop judgement and such things so that people would get the idea that murder is a bad thing and there are much better solutions for problems.

hahahha, so true. It reminds me when i was learning about the holocaust. I thought to my self, if they really wanted to exsterminate the jew you would have to love them and merge with them till there is no jewish race left, although that would go against their arain race thing, i was just thinkign thats a way to eradicate them for sure

PS im not racist

I haven't been too good at keeping up on the news lately, but I did filp it on for a few seconds last night and saw that. And I was like ... "thank the Gods... it's finally over." The bad thing about this though is that she shouldn't have had to starve to death... she should have been put under more humanely. And, because it became this big political, culture war, and court argument, she wasn't given that decency.