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 Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 5:57 pm
darkphoenix1247 I'll say it again- I don't think I could ever really forgive a Nazi you don't have to. They did horrible things
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Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 6:02 pm
for those of you who havent read the book Simon Weisenthal(the dude who wrote it) did not say any thing, he just walked out of the room.
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Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 7:08 am
you can't hate german people, the nazi's yea you can dislike them all you want but you can't hate the german or austrian people.
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Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 7:26 am
YvetteEmilieDupont you can't hate german people, the nazi's yea you can dislike them all you want but you can't hate the german or austrian people. you know why!? because hate sucks, you hate them, you stoop to the bottom level.
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Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 9:41 am
i agree with stitch.
on a personnal level, i cannot hold a grudge. it is both wrong and unhealthy to internalize the the faults of others, and to presume to give oneself the power to judge. grudges come from anger and vengeance, both of which are qualities that we, as jews, are responsible to control and suppress.
so, that is what i would say. though i hold no grudge, it is also outside my power to judge and forgive another's sins. only One can do that.
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Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 1:49 pm
ZonkotheSane i agree with stitch. on a personnal level, i cannot hold a grudge. it is both wrong and unhealthy to internalize the the faults of others, and to presume to give oneself the power to judge. grudges come from anger and vengeance, both of which are qualities that we, as jews, are responsible to control and suppress. so, that is what i would say. though i hold no grudge, it is also outside my power to judge and forgive another's sins. only One can do that. well said, though I honestly don't think I can do that myself sweatdrop
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darkphoenix1247 Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 2:52 pm
That in itself is the problem. This wasn't a question of absolving one's sins but about forgiving the man-the individual person- on a personal level.
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Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 7:12 am
As many people have alrelady said, this is a hard question. Personally, I try not to hold a grudge against things, even extreme things such as the Nazi groups and the Holocaust. It still affects me when I think about these horrible events and even when I'm not they are still in the back of my mind.
However, it's not as if when I think about it or when it's in the back of my mind that I am brooding over it and plotting my revenge. No, I am constantly chanting a mantra of "Never again. Never again. Never again..." In the end it all comes down to what we were told to do, and that is to forgive. We are commanded to forgive and that we shall, however in order to forgive you must really mean it, body, mind, and soul.
So in short, my answer is yes, I would forgive the SS gaurd. I have come to terms with my feelings and I have forgiven each anad everyone involved with the Holocaust, including Hitler. And I just pray that something like the Holocaust happens Never Again.
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:38 pm
I have read part of the book, so I get bogged down in the details.
Still, I had heard of this dilemma before and already knew of it. So, my school of thought is that I probably wouldn't forgive them, I just might. Basically I don't have a clue!!!! gonk
Sorry for bringing back old threads again but I couldn't resist the epic dilemma and also I know MANNOWAR IRL.
Coem on, what thinkst thou?
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Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:39 am
Well I joined Gaia in early 2008, so I never had a chance to see this thread. And the answer is:
No.
I couldn't forgive them. There are those who could, but on a personal level, I couldn't. There's a point where a tradegy becomes a statistic.
Now listen: 6 million Jews died in WWII.
6 MILLION.
Imagine if each one of those people were a 1. Just a one. Now hold down your key until you have 6 million 1s. Now think that for ever 1 there was a life, a love, a job, a home, a pet, emotions, thoughts, brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers, aunts and uncles.
Each and every one of them were killed by coowardly Nazis.
Now say you forgive them for what they did to your family.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:58 pm
Simplification time!
Let's say you hit me. I can forgive you (or not).
Let's say you hit me, and you also hit my sister. I can forgive you for hitting me, but only my sister can forgive you for hitting my sister. I can't forgive you for hitting her, nor can she forgive you for hitting me.
Let's say you hit me, my sister, and everyone else who shares our surname, which is very common among Jews. I can forgive you for hitting me. I can't forgive you for hitting my sister, and I can't forgive you for hitting all the other people with my last name.
Let's say you hit 1/3 of all of my people in Europe at the time. I can forgive you for hitting me, but I can't forgive you for hitting 1/3 of the rest of my people.
You can only forgive what is done to YOU, not what is done to others. To get real forgiveness, that man would have had to humble himself and make sincere repentance before everyone he had killed, harmed, terrified, imprisoned, or caused to suffer in any way. There was simply no way for that one man to forgive that other man.
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Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:09 pm
Divash Simplification time! Let's say you hit me. I can forgive you (or not). Let's say you hit me, and you also hit my sister. I can forgive you for hitting me, but only my sister can forgive you for hitting my sister. I can't forgive you for hitting her, nor can she forgive you for hitting me. Let's say you hit me, my sister, and everyone else who shares our surname, which is very common among Jews. I can forgive you for hitting me. I can't forgive you for hitting my sister, and I can't forgive you for hitting all the other people with my last name. Let's say you hit 1/3 of all of my people in Europe at the time. I can forgive you for hitting me, but I can't forgive you for hitting 1/3 of the rest of my people. You can only forgive what is done to YOU, not what is done to others. To get real forgiveness, that man would have had to humble himself and make sincere repentance before everyone he had killed, harmed, terrified, imprisoned, or caused to suffer in any way. There was simply no way for that one man to forgive that other man. Simplification~? That was brilliant. Might you have studied ethics on the university level~? If so, in what university did you study~? If not, where did you learn~? I know this is off topic, but as someone who studies philosophy and ethics, I'm in awe.
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The Fabulous Prince Babel
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Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:00 pm
OLD THREAD IS OLD!!!
I could forgive the Nazi regime... they did terrible things but it is better for the soul to forgive and move on then stick in the past and grudge.
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Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:52 pm
Since Behatz mentioned it, I'll say for the record that I had another account called Ovavman in 2005 and kept it through 2007 and then quit only to rejoin December 2008 as Lumanny. Divash Simplification time! Let's say you hit me. I can forgive you (or not). Let's say you hit me, and you also hit my sister. I can forgive you for hitting me, but only my sister can forgive you for hitting my sister. I can't forgive you for hitting her, nor can she forgive you for hitting me. Let's say you hit me, my sister, and everyone else who shares our surname, which is very common among Jews. I can forgive you for hitting me. I can't forgive you for hitting my sister, and I can't forgive you for hitting all the other people with my last name. Let's say you hit 1/3 of all of my people in Europe at the time. I can forgive you for hitting me, but I can't forgive you for hitting 1/3 of the rest of my people. You can only forgive what is done to YOU, not what is done to others. To get real forgiveness, that man would have had to humble himself and make sincere repentance before everyone he had killed, harmed, terrified, imprisoned, or caused to suffer in any way. There was simply no way for that one man to forgive that other man. I agree with Dr.Awkward on how brilliantly this was simplified, Divash. In the part of the book I read, this question does come up fromn the Jew's friend, who says something to the effect of 'wnen you go to HaOlam HaBaah, how will you answer the victims when they ask, how can you forgive our killer?' This whole thing is a fascinating dilemma.
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Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:09 pm
I don't think forgiveness is there to be offered by those who did not suffer directly.
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