Wicca

[Reijin-chan]

Thank you for the clarification. It's not a term I've personally used, but I've seen it thrown around in M&R, so I was wondering where it fell along the wiccan/pagan gradient of terms.  

[Doctrix]

Reijin-chan

Thank you for the clarification. It's not a term I've personally used, but I've seen it thrown around in M&R, so I was wondering where it fell along the wiccan/pagan gradient of terms.

It's definitely off the radar completely for Wicca. But, like I said, in an outer court group, the leader can throw around whatever terms or information turns his or her crank while they get to know their potential people! Thanks for asking! It's just a further illustration that there absolutely is no standard "outer court material" that people can consider Wiccan.  

[Charity.Solei]

If a coven kept the mysteries of Wicca but were eccletic in praticies would you say that a new tradition was formed that could be considered Wicca?  

[Doctrix]

Charity.Solei

If a coven kept the mysteries of Wicca but were eccletic in praticies would you say that a new tradition was formed that could be considered Wicca?

No. From what I understand of the situation you've presented, I would say they were no longer practicing Wiccans. Thats like asking "if someone (or a group of people) was Initiated Wiccan and then decided that they didn't like practicing Wicca and then became a practicing Christian, would their church be Wiccan?" The answer in both cases is no. Though the people in both cases would obviously have found a better and more fulfilling path for themselves, that path would not be Wiccan. Nobody who entered that eclectic coven (or church) would be automatically Wiccan, either.

You ask a very good question though, and one that I should address in my FAQ right now because a lot of people seem to get confused about similar situations.  

[Sivirs]

I have to ask, Kudzu, if the nature of [at least some of] the mysteries is in the way they're transmitted, in the secrecy and the process and the journey and initiation or whatever, would if even be POSSIBLE to be eclectic in practice and still "keep the Mysteries?"  

[Doctrix]

Sivirs

I have to ask, Kudzu, if the nature of [at least some of] the mysteries is in the way they're transmitted, in the secrecy and the process and the journey and initiation or whatever, would if even be POSSIBLE to be eclectic in practice and still "keep the Mysteries?"

If they have abandoned the traditional praxis for eclecticism, I believe that "keeping the Mysteries" would be impossible, which is why I told Charity.Solei that they were no longer practicing Wiccans. At the very best, their claims paint them as hopelessly confused eclectic Pagans, and at the very worst they could be malicious oathbreakers with some kind of scam going that can't possibly hold water.  

[TN_Lark]

Quote:

If they have abandoned the traditional praxis for eclecticism, I believe that "keeping the Mysteries" would be impossible, which is why I told Charity.Solei that they were no longer practicing Wiccans. At the very best, their claims paint them as hopelessly confused eclectic Pagans, and at the very worst they could be malicious oathbreakers with some kind of scam going that can't possibly hold water.

Yet I have been told by an Alexandrian HPS that things may be added as long as nothing of the core praxis is taken away. Is that not a form of eclecticism?  

[Doctrix]

TN_Lark

Yet I have been told by an Alexandrian HPS that things may be added as long as nothing of the core praxis is taken away. Is that not a form of eclecticism?

Wiccans must teach Wicca as it was taught to them. Understand that first.

Having said that, of course what you said is true, if you consider it so. Indeed, every single Wiccan out there is eclectic if you consider that they say "bless you" after people sneeze, do their own prayers at times, and interact with their families in an eclectic manner if their family has a Pagan practice. However, that core that you mentioned is important, and like I said before, if Wiccans replaced that core with something else, it would no longer be Wicca.

Kudzu

If they have abandoned the traditional praxis for eclecticism, I believe that "keeping the Mysteries" would be impossible, which is why I told Charity.Solei that they were no longer practicing Wiccans.

I'm sorry if that was not clear in my previous posts.  

[Charity.Solei]

[Kudzu]

Charity.Solei

If a coven kept the mysteries of Wicca but were eccletic in praticies would you say that a new tradition was formed that could be considered Wicca?

No. From what I understand of the situation you've presented, I would say they were no longer practicing Wiccans. Thats like asking "if someone (or a group of people) was Initiated Wiccan and then decided that they didn't like practicing Wicca and then became a practicing Christian, would their church be Wiccan?" The answer in both cases is no. Though the people in both cases would obviously have found a better and more fulfilling path for themselves, that path would not be Wiccan. Nobody who entered that eclectic coven (or church) would be automatically Wiccan, either.

You ask a very good question though, and one that I should address in my FAQ right now because a lot of people seem to get confused about similar situations.

That's what I was wondering. One of the Covens in my area is "ecletic Alexandriean" which is why I asked this question.  

[Doctrix]

Charity.Solei

That's what I was wondering. One of the Covens in my area is "ecletic Alexandriean" which is why I asked this question.

Very good questions, these! There are Covens in my area that claim to be eclectic Traditional as well. Usually a few questions to the Covens involved clear things up. In my case they turned out to be entirely unlineaged eclectics with a confused idea about the nature of Wicca, but it doesn't hurt to ask!  

[TN_Lark]

[quote="[Kudzu]Wiccans must teach Wicca as it was taught to them. Understand that first.

Let me preface this by saying that I am no longer studying OC. Personal obligations caused me to have to stop my BTW studies.

That being said, one of my concerns with the OC material that we were being taught is that occasionally the teacher (and HPS of the coven) would say that we had to learn a particular ritual/teaching...but she would say that she had no idea why we did somethat that way or what it meant other than it was something that was passed to her and she needed to pass it to us.

Now it seems to me that it is somewhat foolish and empty to be doing something if you no longer have any meaning attached to it. If nothing else, it would seem that there would be some effort put forward to come up with a meanint to attach to that particular bit of knowledge...not just leave it hanging as a "must know" by "don't know why".

Is this common, or did I just run into a teacher that wasn't particularly well prepared?

-Lark-  

[Doctrix]

TN_Lark

Kudzu

Wiccans must teach Wicca as it was taught to them. Understand that first.

One of my concerns with the OC material that we were being taught is that occasionally the teacher (and HPS of the coven) would say that we had to learn a particular ritual/teaching...but she would say that she had no idea why we did somethat that way or what it meant other than it was something that was passed to her and she needed to pass it to us.

My statement above does not apply to any outer courts because she wasn't teaching you Wicca at all. Outer Courts are not for the purpose of training in Wicca. So she didn't have to pass on any non-Wiccan material as it was passed on to her. I don't know why she would do so if she couldn't make heads or tails of the crap they fed her in outer court!

TN_Lark

Is this common, or did I just run into a teacher that wasn't particularly well prepared?

It's quite uncommon in outer court, since people can make up whatever fun non-Wiccan activities and silly Pagan stuff they want the outer court to be about! Most people choose to waste everybody's time with at least stuff they enjoy and understand! I suppose it must depend on the Elder who is running the thing.  

[TN_Lark]

[Kudzu]

[
Outer Courts are not for the purpose of training in Wicca. So she didn't have to pass on any non-Wiccan material as it was passed on to her. I don't know why she would do so if she couldn't make heads or tails of the crap they fed her in outer court!

Ah well, then I have to assume that it may have been poor preparation for the teaching role by her up-line. That fact that she went from Seeker to 3rd in 7 months might have had something to do with it.

-Lark-  

[Doctrix]

TN_Lark

Kudzu

Outer Courts are not for the purpose of training in Wicca. So she didn't have to pass on any non-Wiccan material as it was passed on to her.

I have to assume that it may have been poor preparation for the teaching role by her up-line. That fact that she went from Seeker to 3rd in 7 months might have had something to do with it.

Some people only very reluctantly answer the call to teach. And I do not envy those who must make up a year and a day's worth of fluff to entertain potential Coven members. I would want more training and preparation, if I were her! I believe her situation to be most unusual.  

[Charity.Solei]

[Kudzu]

Charity.Solei

That's what I was wondering. One of the Covens in my area is "ecletic Alexandriean" which is why I asked this question.

Very good questions, these! There are Covens in my area that claim to be eclectic Traditional as well. Usually a few questions to the Covens involved clear things up. In my case they turned out to be entirely unlineaged eclectics with a confused idea about the nature of Wicca, but it doesn't hurt to ask!

So I should ask about that coven's linneage?