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 Posted: Sat May 11, 2013 8:58 pm
If you already went into a country that is hostile to you, with the intention of liberating a hostage that is going to be put to death, I don't think negotiations with their conniving leader are on the table (or rather, any negotiations being offered shouldn't be taken seriously regardless of circumstances), though I understand why people choose to fork over the Fire Emblem.
And I agree it's fun to go through every option if you're going to play the game repeatedly.
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Posted: Sun May 12, 2013 7:29 am
Manic Martini If you already went into a country that is hostile to you, with the intention of liberating a hostage that is going to be put to death, I don't think negotiations with their conniving leader are on the table (or rather, any negotiations being offered shouldn't be taken seriously regardless of circumstances), though I understand why people choose to fork over the Fire Emblem. You are correct about negotiations are off the table and backstabbing cards are in stack. >>; But you are also correct about why people choose to fork over the Fire Emblem. Emmy is one person who changes people's lives by her words. It's hard to replace someone that you love and care over an object, whether it's important or not. And even if Gangrel did manage to get his hand on the Fire Emblem, I don't think he will be able to get his wish since he is unable to use its power, whether or not he knows. After all, he will need to acquire the lost gemstones if he wants to use the power. =P I don't know if he needs to visit Naga to restore the Fire Emblem's power. However, what I do know is that there's no way Naga would restore it due to not only Gangrel is a bad guy, but also Gangrel is a Grimleaf too. However, I am curious what made you change your mind about allowing Lucina to kill you.
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Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 5:54 pm
Jisen Meizuki You are correct about negotiations are off the table and backstabbing cards are in stack. >>; But you are also correct about why people choose to fork over the Fire Emblem. Emmy is one person who changes people's lives by her words. It's hard to replace someone that you love and care over an object, whether it's important or not. And even if Gangrel did manage to get his hand on the Fire Emblem, I don't think he will be able to get his wish since he is unable to use its power, whether or not he knows. After all, he will need to acquire the lost gemstones if he wants to use the power. =P I don't know if he needs to visit Naga to restore the Fire Emblem's power. However, what I do know is that there's no way Naga would restore it due to not only Gangrel is a bad guy, but also Gangrel is a Grimleaf too. However, I am curious what made you change your mind about allowing Lucina to kill you. I changed my mind about Luccy killing you because she seems to be pretty bad at trying to change the future in the way she wants to. After all, she thought she'd saved Emm after all the intervening she did early on in the game and that clearly didn't work out. Why would the MU think she'd be any more successful with saving Chrom just by killing MU? I'd like to think MU would consider that track record of hers and the lessons learned from it as a reason not to believe it would work. MU is the one with the good ideas - not Lucina.
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Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 8:38 pm
My first playthrough I chose all the options where MU dies. (The last 2) Mainly because I figured they couldn't kill off my character.. Which, left me speechless when I actually died at the end. xD
As for the first choice I believe I opted for the "Save Emm" decision just because I figured we could steal the Emblem immediately back. Afterall, we had 2 countries united and it was never stated that we were out numbered really. With a good strategist and good leaders, I though we could win the war. And we did, of course. Also, the thoughts above are based off knowledge that we had at that point. Of course we know we always win at the end anyway, but that aside, I think it would have been a decent military decision. Emm was pretty helpful after all.
Now if I were to choose the other 2 decisions based on what I would actually choose, here's what I would have picked and why.
First, kill me off? Um, no. I'm more useful to the army than Lucy as far as I understand and Lucina's premonitions has never helped at all before... Pretty much what FD said above..
Second, if I put myself in the shoes of MU, I would choose to kill Grima for good. I mean, sealing him temporarily is what started the whole damned mess in the first place.. Also, the next set of adventurers trying to slay Grima (assuming there even are any who could) most likely wouldn't get so lucky as to have someone in their army conveniently linked to Grima, thus, killing him for good. It wasn't just a "someone can figure that out then" kind of thing. It was I die now or Grima lives forever. Also, I think it's more likely Grima succeeds in world domination that someone else figuring out how to get rid of him for good. And EVEN THEN they'd have to breed a sacrifice with Grima's blood for said occasion... So then it's me, Grima wins, or my great great great grandson takes my sacrifice..
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Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 8:45 pm
Jisen Meizuki But you are also correct about why people choose to fork over the Fire Emblem. Emmy is one person who changes people's lives by her words. It's hard to replace someone that you love and care over an object, whether it's important or not. And even if Gangrel did manage to get his hand on the Fire Emblem, I don't think he will be able to get his wish since he is unable to use its power, whether or not he knows. After all, he will need to acquire the lost gemstones if he wants to use the power. We don't actually know that it's missing gems at this point. I believe it was Tiki that tells us. We also don't know what or how exactly we use it. On the other hand, we don't know exactly what he plans to do with it either. So, at this point in the game when you make the decision, we know he has evil intentions, but we don't know how important it is or how to use it. I think that Chrom and MU would value Emm's life over it. At least right now. I think that if they knew about the Emblem MU would make the sacrifice and Chrom still maybe wouldn't. But that's just my best guess. EDIT: Despite that it would be pretty obvious that it was missing 4 gems before, the way I interpreted the conversation between Tiki, Chrom, and MU was that Chrom and MU didn't know yet. Like they found out as the player did. Though realistically, you would see the 4 holes and just assume there's 4 other gems.
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Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 7:04 am
Archolite We don't actually know that it's missing gems at this point. I believe it was Tiki that tells us. We also don't know what or how exactly we use it. On the other hand, we don't know exactly what he plans to do with it either.You are correct that everyone didn't know the Fire Emblem is missing the gems or how important the Fire Emblem is (besides how it was used to save mankind from destruction) until we met Tiki. However, it seems you've forgotten that Gangrel already stated his plan when he had a "parley" with Emmeryn. He planned to use the Fire Emblem to destroy Ylisse. =P After all, he stated that he heard a legend that it grants wish. But as I stated in my post, even if he managed to get his hands on it, he doesn't know how to make it work. And in addition, we don't even know if Gangrel is awared about the missing gems or not. Sure, he did not say anything about the gems, but at the same time, we don't know if he knows or not by not revealing. =P Remember, the last gem was found in Plegia. So if Gangrel knows about that gem, he may know that there are some gems missing, but he doesn't know where to find them. Furthermore, I also like to point out that even if we stick to just "Fire Emblem is a wish granting item" and not something else, we don't know if it grants wishes with or without the gems. So like I said in my last post, "even if Gangrel did manage to get his hand on the Fire Emblem, I don't think he will be able to get his wish since he is unable to use its power, whether or not he knows."
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Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 1:22 pm
Jisen Meizuki You are correct that everyone didn't know the Fire Emblem is missing the gems or how important the Fire Emblem is (besides how it was used to save mankind from destruction) until we met Tiki. However, it seems you've forgotten that Gangrel already stated his plan when he had a "parley" with Emmeryn. He planned to use the Fire Emblem to destroy Ylisse. =P After all, he stated that he heard a legend that it grants wish. But as I stated in my post, even if he managed to get his hands on it, he doesn't know how to make it work. And in addition, we don't even know if Gangrel is awared about the missing gems or not. Sure, he did not say anything about the gems, but at the same time, we don't know if he knows or not by not revealing. =P Remember, the last gem was found in Plegia. So if Gangrel knows about that gem, he may know that there are some gems missing, but he doesn't know where to find them. Furthermore, I also like to point out that even if we stick to just "Fire Emblem is a wish granting item" and not something else, we don't know if it grants wishes with or without the gems. So like I said in my last post, "even if Gangrel did manage to get his hand on the Fire Emblem, I don't think he will be able to get his wish since he is unable to use its power, whether or not he knows."Very well put, and yes I did forget. I forget when we learned what after playing through it multiple times, haha.. But yes, it seems it was pretty clear letting Validar have the Emblem was 100% bad news.
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Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 8:25 pm
Archolite Second, if I put myself in the shoes of MU, I would choose to kill Grima for good. I mean, sealing him temporarily is what started the whole damned mess in the first place.. Also, the next set of adventurers trying to slay Grima (assuming there even are any who could) most likely wouldn't get so lucky as to have someone in their army conveniently linked to Grima, thus, killing him for good. It wasn't just a "someone can figure that out then" kind of thing. It was I die now or Grima lives forever. Also, I think it's more likely Grima succeeds in world domination that someone else figuring out how to get rid of him for good. And EVEN THEN they'd have to breed a sacrifice with Grima's blood for said occasion... So then it's me, Grima wins, or my great great great grandson takes my sacrifice.. The Love that Lasts the Longest...  Say something new!
I have nothing left...
I can't face the DARK without you!
I'm gonna play a bit of devil's advocate-- (I'm surprised no one caught on to that earlier).
First off, I will state, that this is without the Stinger- honestly that Stinger turns the choice into "Have your cake and eat it too" and shouldn't have been there, and one-sides the choice.
Without that stinger (AKA instead of MU coming back at the end, MU actually dies), I'd honestly not sacrifice MU at the end, and without hesitation at that. Yes, we can end Grima there- but at what cost? You're wreaking havoc and pain on your friends and family, hell, think, will your kid(s) even exist outside of their Future selves (and speaking of said future selves-- they've lost you twice.
Now, yes, Grima may come back in the distant future, but as Chrom points out, at the very least, there will be a Falchion waiting to seal him again... and that's IF he comes back. There's no guarantee that things will be made so. (He's like Loptyr, he has to have a proper human vessel for whatever reason. So put a stop to that occurring, and he can't come back anyways, because at the very least, he's sealed for as long a MU is alive, which means his "perfect vessel" is gone, and a new one will have to be there. So...) And that doesn't account for the stated possibility that another method can be found.
The threat is dealt with, and solutions and safeguards can be prepared (like, maybe making it not a quest and a half to power up the Fire Emblem/Falchion? Preparing troops to take Grima on in the event he returns, puppeting Plegia (and given the circumstances, this is logical. Twice Plegia has been torn apart and lost its ruler-- so of course Yilsse is every position to determine who goes where with that defeated nation. Hell, putting a reformed Gangrel back on the throne might work wonders.) to get rid of the Grimleal (take a page from Pre-Arvis Grannvale. Replace "Loptyrian" with "Grimleal". Keep the stake burning. Find that shrine in the desert. Blow it up.) and other such things. Obviously, the first goal would be preventing his unsealing entirely- sure he lives on forever, but what good does that do if he's permanently sealed away. The second would be prearranging his defeat- if he comes back, and his defeat is preinsured, what cost is there in sealing him away over the definite cost of losing MU?
A theoretical loss vs a direct one. That's not something I'd question. And to quote Lloyd Irving: "What will you accomplish by dying? Nothing! There is no meaning in dying!" Some claim the question is easy, and that choosing to Let Chrom strike the final blow is just wrong, I thoroughly disagree without the presence of that godawful stinger (which as I've mentioned twice, turns the choice into "Have your cake (Grima's Dead) and eat it too (MU Lives anyway)").
(As a note, I regard Lloyd as a true hero, ESPECIALLY OVA!Lloyd who didn't need some other world to justify his "**** this sacrifice ****!" notion. (Note, in ToS, when the Tower of Salvation is reached, Lloyd is put into a position- let Colette die, and the world be saved, but at the same time that same action could damn another world-- so is it really the right course of action? In the OVA of that game, the other world is not introduced to him until afterwards. It wasn't a question for him- when Raine stops, having realized his intent (protect Colette at all costs), and calls him out, he drops a crowning moment of awesome on her in direct response ("I'm Going.")))
There's nothing left to lose..!
The fight never ends!!
I can't face the DARK without you! ...Is the One that can never be.
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Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 2:14 am
Seliph Calphy Lloyd this, Lloyd that, Lloyd, Lloyd, Lloyd You mean that Four Fangs Fodder pain in the a** Swordmaster? Is there a hack or something I'm missing out on where he more significant to the plot? @Your post, I find it hard to follow some of what you wrote.. But I will reply as best I can understand it. Getting rid of the Blood of Grima line, as you mentioned, would actually end up killing you or your grandchildren. So that note is kind of... contradictory since you are saving yourself to kill yourself. Unless you are plainly saying slaughter your grandchildren after you're dead.. Not sure on that one. Second, you act as if you can actually delete a religion from history... GOOD LUCK with that one, sir. Also, as Fire Emblem lore seems to go, I am pretty sure Grima could feed through some other means. Such as a different offering table. Perhaps a different bloodline even. Not that far fetched seeing as we know nothing about the structure of the current offering table.. Also Validar and his fathers and forefathers before him did NOT qualify, so experimenting and finding good genes is what made you a valid vessel. I'd bet Grima's bloodline would re-appear in someone else's blood if your ancestry was killed off. (How's THAT for Devil's advocate, hmm?) Besides, no seal lasts forever because they will literally live until killed. Somewhere along the line someone will release him. Even if it's a .01% chance after all factors are taken into consideration even if it's 2 millenniums later someone will get him out. The only way it wouldn't is if the entire race lived within a limited timeline, aka going extinct. Factors you can't predict. As probability works, an infinite amount of rolls results in ALL possibilities occurring. And to sum up everything as a whole you are assuming many things CAN be done to prevent him. And granted, there are ways to help reduce the risk, this is the only surefire way to keep Grima away. Except the contradiction you provided as I mentioned above which we still don't know to be 100%. Also, it's kind of selfish to hold your family above the rest of the world, especially when both of your parents and relatives are dead anyway. Sure your wifey would become a widow and your child now becomes fatherless, but they will cherish your last moments and regard you as a hero. Not exactly something anyone would prefer but who would argue that what you did was wrong when sacrificing yourself for the good of mankind? To promise a future where people can live without this threat. I might even go so far as to say you would look cowardly when making the decision to save yourself. Though, losing your pride isn't as important a loss as the other losses involved. I would regret it for the rest of my life if I acted so cowardly just to save my self. One last thing.. Grima was sealed once before, right? What makes you think he'd stay down this time? What will be different? Nothing, preparations will delay him, but he will come back. You think they didn't try to keep him out of the fray for good the first time they sealed him?
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Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 7:07 am
Archolite Seliph Calphy Lloyd this, Lloyd that, Lloyd, Lloyd, Lloyd You mean that Four Fangs Fodder pain in the a** Swordmaster? Is there a hack or something I'm missing out on where he more significant to the plot? He was referring Lloyd Irving from the Tales series, a RPG game and he's a big fan of Tales series. You will find some of his posts where he will compare Tales and Fire Emblem together.
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Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 11:35 am
Except it's not a theory that the seal may weaken over time, it will weaken over time. We know that. So, either cause our friends some momentary grief while they hopefully respect our sacrifice and are proud to have known us, or open the door for many more people to die horrible deaths.
Uh.
Yeah, I would say it's easy to know what the right choice is.
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Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 4:09 pm
Seliph Calphy I'm gonna play a bit of devil's advocate-- (I'm surprised no one caught on to that earlier). First off, I will state, that this is without the Stinger- honestly that Stinger turns the choice into "Have your cake and eat it too" and shouldn't have been there, and one-sides the choice.Without that stinger (AKA instead of MU coming back at the end, MU actually dies), I'd honestly not sacrifice MU at the end, and without hesitation at that. Yes, we can end Grima there- but at what cost? You're wreaking havoc and pain on your friends and family, hell, think, will your kid(s) even exist outside of their Future selves (and speaking of said future selves-- they've lost you twice. Now, yes, Grima may come back in the distant future, but as Chrom points out, at the very least, there will be a Falchion waiting to seal him again... and that's IF he comes back. There's no guarantee that things will be made so. (He's like Loptyr, he has to have a proper human vessel for whatever reason. So put a stop to that occurring, and he can't come back anyways, because at the very least, he's sealed for as long a MU is alive, which means his "perfect vessel" is gone, and a new one will have to be there. So...) And that doesn't account for the stated possibility that another method can be found. The threat is dealt with, and solutions and safeguards can be prepared (like, maybe making it not a quest and a half to power up the Fire Emblem/Falchion? Preparing troops to take Grima on in the event he returns, puppeting Plegia (and given the circumstances, this is logical. Twice Plegia has been torn apart and lost its ruler-- so of course Yilsse is every position to determine who goes where with that defeated nation. Hell, putting a reformed Gangrel back on the throne might work wonders.) to get rid of the Grimleal (take a page from Pre-Arvis Grannvale. Replace "Loptyrian" with "Grimleal". Keep the stake burning. Find that shrine in the desert. Blow it up.) and other such things. Obviously, the first goal would be preventing his unsealing entirely- sure he lives on forever, but what good does that do if he's permanently sealed away. The second would be prearranging his defeat- if he comes back, and his defeat is preinsured, what cost is there in sealing him away over the definite cost of losing MU? A theoretical loss vs a direct one. That's not something I'd question. And to quote Lloyd Irving: "What will you accomplish by dying? Nothing! There is no meaning in dying!" Some claim the question is easy, and that choosing to Let Chrom strike the final blow is just wrong, I thoroughly disagree without the presence of that godawful stinger (which as I've mentioned twice, turns the choice into "Have your cake (Grima's Dead) and eat it too (MU Lives anyway)"). I agree with what I bolded. I think Nintendo should've stuck to their guns and had MU die permanently after all. Aside from that, to not sacrifice MU is to say that you're willing to take a risk in allowing something capable of destroying or enslaving mankind to come back. To even suggest that dying is meaningless or can't accomplish anything in such a situation where MU can eliminate a huge threat to humanity is ridiculous. What does death accomplish? Uh… the assurance that Grima doesn't come back. Ever. At all. Regardless of what future generations do or any machinations future Glimleal might want to devise. Sounds like a hell of an accomplishment to me. Saving the world from possible future calamity with complete confidence at the price of giving a few dozen people 'the sads'? Chrom and company can deal with it. MU isn't worth more than the safety of the entire world. Further, if Grima were to come back in the far future, efforts Chrom and co. made to prevent a comeback would be incredibly difficult if not outright impossible to ensure the longer time goes on after their passing. It's allowing a risk that can otherwise be completely eliminated. Onto your use of the phrase "a theoretical loss vs. a direct one", I rather like it. To directly prevent Grima from ever returning is clearly the better choice to theoretically taking efforts to defeat him again in the unforeseeable future that you can't know will succeed by comparison.
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Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 9:50 pm
Manic Martini Onto your use of the phrase "a theoretical loss vs. a direct one", I rather like it. To directly prevent Grima from ever returning is clearly the better choice to theoretically taking efforts to defeat him again in the unforeseeable future that you can't know will succeed by comparison. I lol'd. I always love when someone uses someone else's own quote against them. And so well done, sir. +Props Jisen Meizuki He was referring Lloyd Irving from the Tales series, a RPG game and he's a big fan of Tales series. You will find some of his posts where he will compare Tales and Fire Emblem together. Ah yes, I actually did the research a bit after that post, but thank you for the clarification, madam. His signature just appears to be the Lloyd sprite from Awakening after you get him from Bonus Box, haha. But darn, I was hoping for a hack to play. xd
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Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 6:47 am
Archolite Ah yes, I actually did the research a bit after that post, but thank you for the clarification, madam. His signature just appears to be the Lloyd sprite from Awakening after you get him from Bonus Box, haha. But darn, I was hoping for a hack to play. xd Perhaps he has gotten Lloyd from the Spotpass. However, I'm pretty sure the rest (and maybe Lloyd) are his MUs that he saved in his Avatar Log after playing so many times on his files in order to create a team. So no hack in there.
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Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 10:55 am
Jisen Meizuki Archolite Ah yes, I actually did the research a bit after that post, but thank you for the clarification, madam. His signature just appears to be the Lloyd sprite from Awakening after you get him from Bonus Box, haha. But darn, I was hoping for a hack to play. xd Perhaps he has gotten Lloyd from the Spotpass. However, I'm pretty sure the rest (and maybe Lloyd) are his MUs that he saved in his Avatar Log after playing so many times on his files in order to create a team. So no hack in there. It is Lloyd Irving and the rest of the main cast from Tales of Symphonia. They're all characters he decided to create and save in his Avatar Log.
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