FEMINISM

[Daffodil the Destroyer]

Well... I was going to weigh in, but Esiris has said everything I was going to mention, and has done so far more succinctly than I could have. sweatdrop

On a somewhat related note - I often have trouble finding an appropriate way to point out things like privilege-based problems and societally-enforced stereotypes (i.e. one wherein I can actually make the other person think about it without coming across as a killjoy or nag). Sometimes it's hard to keep up the fight to recognize my own privilege and keep it in check. I catch myself saying inappropriate things sometimes, and I try to notice and remind myself of why I need to do better... but sometimes either the mental energy involved with constantly policing myself and/or the sheer negativity I get from other people when I speak up about something can really get to me and completely shut down that whole mental process for a while.

 

[Esiris]

Daffodil the Destroyer

Well... I was going to weigh in, but Esiris has said everything I was going to mention, and has done so far more succinctly than I could have. sweatdrop

I got a lot of it from articles on Ebsco, and from Privilege, Power and Difference. It's a great read- I trade it around with my black friends at school so we can communicate better with others.

Daffodil the Destroyer

On a somewhat related note - I often have trouble finding an appropriate way to point out things like privilege-based problems and societally-enforced stereotypes (i.e. one wherein I can actually make the other person think about it without coming across as a killjoy or nag).

I think that's really tricky. In Letters from Birmingham Jail, Dr. King wrote:
"I MUST make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councillor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically feels that he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time; and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."


He also talked about tension in terms of the thing that finally starts people talking about the subject- without tension, it's just too easy to ignore that kind of stuff.

I see a lot of parallels.

Daffodil the Destroyer

Sometimes it's hard to keep up the fight to recognize my own privilege and keep it in check. I catch myself saying inappropriate things sometimes, and I try to notice and remind myself of why I need to do better... but sometimes either the mental energy involved with constantly policing myself and/or the sheer negativity I get from other people when I speak up about something can really get to me and completely shut down that whole mental process for a while.

I know how frustrating that is- I get it on Gaia, in school and stuff. The thing that keeps me going is that I see changes- heck, my Honor's Project this year is on those kinds of changes!  

[lilla muchi]

Esiris

lilla muchi

well in my own view i say treat others as you want to be treated and treat none less than yourself.

I think that's excellent advice! It's a good rule of thumb for people to avoid cross marginalization- I mean, how can there be equal rights for some and not others? It kind of makes it not "equal" rights at all. LGBT and Allies should be working to end racism, sexism, ageism, anti-poly bias, etc.

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i know its gone on for centuries but i think we all should have evolved past this.

Evolution really only targets genetic stuff- this is all learned behaviors.

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It's kinda sad that there are still people whom choose to treat others as less then themselves merely because of (gender, race, sexual orientation, religion, etc.) but it falls into ignorance and the way they were taught/ brought up.

Yep- it's all about privilege structures and bias, but when you're marginalized sometimes being underprivileged in one area makes you more likely to misuse your privilege in other areas.
And there are so many things in the "etc" field- I mean, relationship configurations, biological sex, education level- it seems like it never ends!
What kinds of things have you found useful to help in your own struggle with privilege so you don't cross-marginalize other people?

I catch myself doing it now and then and I've been working mostly on body language- kind of following the idea that if you smile you'll be happy, if I control my body language with people who I have been socially trained to be "uncomfortable" with- I can usually turn it around into something more positive.

That doesn't help with the internet though- and so many forms of prejudice slip into posts on FB and Gaia that it's a real uphill battle trying to stand up for true equality. cat_sweatdrop

other then the fact that i truely wish you would stop commenting on things i say and leave me be. I find that i was never raised with any bias, I have strong opinions but i came to them on my own, I was taught when little that no matter who you are we are all the same. I thank my mother for that honestly and the fact we lived/live in a military city. The only people i have ever met to truly be racist where the ignorant people who choose to leave school and now are struggling. The way i deal with it is just that treat others the way i want to be treated and when they treat me wrong i do the same back. Kinda goes towards the theory an eye for an eye. I feel that the brain should have become more adapted to such things and would be considered an evolution of the mind. Also to me is shouldn't be weather you feel its right or agree with how someone lives because no matter what its their choice. With another quote you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. I feel once humans learn this it would be a much better place.  

[The Sweet Irony]

Belethiel

Yeah, we need to keep things balanced.

I know a guy who can't get custody of his kids even though his wife is a very irresponsible mother. I'm pretty sure it's because he's male. Men get judged for wanting to work with children all the time, too, people assume they're *****.

There are still equality issues on both sides. But, I think issues with women are still too prevalent and we can deal with the men's stuff later... when anything deemed "feminine" isn't seen as something negative.

Those feminists who run around saying "men are dogs" and such are not feminists, they are misandrists. However, that is still being portrayed as feminism by the media.... ick.

*Tip Post*  

[Taeryyn]

lilla muchi

other then the fact that i truely wish you would stop commenting on things i say and leave me be.

Gaia has an ignore feature. Please use it. I had to intervene in one argument in one thread. That doesn't mean that Esiris isn't allowed to ever reply to anything else you post in the guild.  

[PeachPunk]

I'm a feminist thick and through, but I don't hate men. There really are some open-minded male feminists out there, and I don't challenge them. I welcome them. I think it's great that there are male feminists. However, there is always that one group of male feminists who don't support the cause as much and simply label themselves as feminists in order to meet women, but that portion isn't that big. And like someone said earlier, we should worry about men's rights after women's rights has been taken care of.
It's kind of like how my dad is concerned about racism towards whites, and is convinced Michelle Obama is one of them. Apparently, she said something along the lines of "Now that America has a black president, I think we're finally headed in the right direction." Then my dad was trying to tell me that had it been, say, Hilary Clinton who said that when Bill was elected, but replaced "black" with "white", everyone would be pissed off with her. But the thing that Dad doesn't understand is that black people have been through so much, between slavery, segregation, etc. (hell, even in Africa, where many of these people's ancestors originated, they face oppression by some arrogant white minorities there), and whites haven't been through as much pain, so we should worry about racism against whites when racism against every other race is taken care of.  

[lilla muchi]

Taeryyn

lilla muchi

other then the fact that i truely wish you would stop commenting on things i say and leave me be.

Gaia has an ignore feature. Please use it. I had to intervene in one argument in one thread. That doesn't mean that Esiris isn't allowed to ever reply to anything else you post in the guild.

ive tried to twice now but it wont go through for some reason  

[Shanna66]

i have met some femenazis who had the mindset of every man is a rapist waiting to happen and that every woman needs a job. i hate people like that because they are implying that i cannot be happy as a housewife, which i am.

although i do think that as long as v****a is still a dirty word and how its bad to talk about rape instead of "just getting over it" then we still need people fighting for women's rights. not saying rape only happens to women, but its still thought of as "a woman's problem" i really think that if we were more open with rape happening to women that would help alot of male survivors too  

[Sin Error]

I don't mind as long as they stay out of my bussiness, I do hate feminist who take it too far, like feminazis. I believe we are all created equal no matter race, gender, sexuality. we are all humans, respect to be respected. Terms like feminist and masculinist just sets us apart, beacuse both side believe they are being treated unequally,  

[Esiris]

lilla muchi

I find that i was never raised with any bias, I have strong opinions but i came to them on my own, I was taught when little that no matter who you are we are all the same.

My experience is that the only people who think they weren't raised with Bias are the ones who aren't really aware of what bias looks like- it's because of how privilege works. Privilege is designed to make the people who have it blind to the fact they have it.
I know that I have racist attitudes, a bias against cops and some other things too- but the difference between people who abuse their privilege and the ones who don't is the difference between someone who really looks hard and their privilege and someone who ignores their privilege and pretend it doesn't exist.

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I thank my mother for that honestly and the fact we lived/live in a military city. The only people i have ever met to truly be racist where the ignorant people who choose to leave school and now are struggling.

I grew up with a lot of my family in the military- that never stopped people from being racist, and racism is only one kind of bias, and a lot of the time it isn't the overt kinds of racism that's the problem- it's the more subtle stuff.
Stuff like how when I give people money at the checkout line, they twist their hand in a way to avoid touching mine in ways that doesn't happen when it's a white person. Or how I get followed around the store when I'm shopping. People don't have to say "I hate Niggers", they can do subtle things- like ask for my ID when I used a card when the white chick in front of me was from out of state and didn't have to show ID.

White Privilege Checklist
There are checklists for all kinds of privilege. Here's another example of how people accidentally do racist things- I'm part of my state's Student Assistance program. I speak up for LGBT Rights and identified on my school paper work as Third Gendered.

The head of Student Activities asked me to join the Diversity committee- she's the one who took my paperwork. She followed up with mentioning that it needs more "diverse people", and when I mentioned that I'd love to be a lesion between the Gay Straight Alliance and the committee- she was CONFUSED. She singled me out because of my race, under the assumption that I want to speak for my race instead of being an elected representative of the club.

If you ask her- she'll swear she's not biased- but then, like I said, everyone is and it's really the ones who say they aren't that are more likely to feed their own bias and offend others.

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The way i deal with it is just that treat others the way i want to be treated and when they treat me wrong i do the same back. Kinda goes towards the theory an eye for an eye.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. cat_wink

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I feel that the brain should have become more adapted to such things and would be considered an evolution of the mind.

Oh no- bias is developed as an evolutionary advantage. cat_3nodding
The faster you can identify "not us" v. "us", the faster you can get out of harms way.

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Also to me is shouldn't be weather you feel its right or agree with how someone lives because no matter what its their choice. With another quote you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. I feel once humans learn this it would be a much better place.

I completely agree! I mean, it's just like when the Catholic Church tells people to be chaste if they're gay or others try and break up loving families because they're mixed race or poly. cat_3nodding One of the huge things I see is how white parents are encouraged to adopt white babies and not other babies- because somehow looking like you're a biological parent is more important than raising healthy happy kids regardless of the color of their skin.