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 Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:13 pm
sad sweatdrop I am so sorry, I didn't mean to step on anyone's familial pasts. Just curiosity...
I knew some stupid stuff happened in the past, and continues to happen around the world in "third world" countries. Hell even in our nation...
sorry,
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:36 pm
Lord Kilo Von Mortenson Qyp Lord Kilo Von Mortenson I'm not entirely sure how the culture sees that word, but "*****" actually wasn't a race-specific term until recently. It's original and to this day official definition is simply "ignorant" or "uneducated." It means the "*****" (slang of ******) was never taught basic schooling; reading, writing, math, etc, the elementary stuff. So technically speaking every child who has yet to go to school could be called that regardless of race or place of birth. In the days of slavery all slaves were called niggers because education was strictly banned for them. Slaves were not allowed an education and as such were not allowed to be anything other than a ******. What many black people, not all and I don't mean to sound racist by saying if that's what it looks like, but what many black people fail to realize is that they were not alone in being enslaved. White people actually enslaved each other first when they were tribal. Here in America the Native Americans were the first to be enslaved and their treatment was much worse than many people realize or at least acknowledge. My point is white people and Native Americans were also called niggers during the same time period. I don't know about Asians being enslaved, but being darker than white people I don't doubt at some point they were called that if not a number of other names. Back to the topic of modern culture, based on what I've seen speaking with black people they see calling each other "*****" as something like "fellow" or "brother," but when a white person calls them that they see it as a reference to slavery. They take offense to it because it leads to them seeing the white person as rude, disrespectful, and arrogant to suggest that black people should still be enslaved. Because of there being so much sensitivity related to the word I would like to point out that everything I posted here is merely for the benefit of discussion and education, not meant to be an insult, racist, or otherwise disrespectful message. <- My disclaimer, so don't hold a grudge against me... ninja Edit: The word "******" may have become racist because of black people being the most common, or at least the most thought of, slaves. For years if someone saw a black person they'd assume he/she was a slave, therefore uneducated, and therefore a ******. Thus black skin would directly correspond to that word. Just a theory. Where the HECK did you get your info from? Sounds like a load of crap to me... An old dictionary defined "******" as I described and a history class taught about how slaves were treated. I've also spoken with allot of people who use the term having been through the Northwest of America (where it's not commonly used), the Southeast of America (where it is used daily be most people), and a military academy where again the term was used daily by most of my platoon. I used it once and got lectured, fortunately I was around friends, so I asked questions and had it explained by them. Along with having read the word from an old dictionary they agreed that it means ignorant, but the word isn't socially acceptable when used by white people anyways. I pointed out that could be considered racist in itself and they shrugged, they wouldn't hold it against me but they couldn't stop others from taking it as a serious offense. Edit: I did mean to edit out that white people may have been called niggers as well. I know Native Americans have been and still are being Native American myself. My dad's white so I have white skin, but people find out I'm Native American and some of them will call me a ******. The reason I realized white people probably wouldn't have been called niggers, at least not commonly, is language. Language changes over time and I'm not certain that word existed back when slaves were white people. It probably didn't. Also, having looked up the word just now I see the definition has since changed. Apparently the myth of it being strictly based on black skin won over in the end. That is how words change, when society starts seeing the word as meaning something other than it's original definition the definition changes to fit what society interprets it as. Well... ****** meaning "ignorant" seems odd to me... Maybe that is what it TURNED into... But from what I know, it originated from "Negro" or "Niger", meaning BLACK. Black is a Gaelic word I think. Spanish/Latin origins, like most words in the English language. It's probably like the word gay, how it once meant happy/joy, and now is means homosexual. Or how some people say wicked, and they mean it's awesome. Cool = temperature. Now it is expressing something that is between Good and Awesome. Slavery being thousands of years old is not exactly old news to me... Roman Empire's main trade was slavery.
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Lord Alucard Ere Casanova
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:43 pm
Southern_cross_nemesis sad sweatdrop I am so sorry, I didn't mean to step on anyone's familial pasts. Just curiosity... I knew some stupid stuff happened in the past, and continues to happen around the world in "third world" countries. Hell even in our nation... sorry, Don't apologize on my account. I hold no grudges toward anyone and certainly don't blame you for anything. Being curious is natural and I'm not sensitive about this topic.
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:47 pm
Qyp Lord Kilo Von Mortenson Qyp Lord Kilo Von Mortenson I'm not entirely sure how the culture sees that word, but "*****" actually wasn't a race-specific term until recently. It's original and to this day official definition is simply "ignorant" or "uneducated." It means the "*****" (slang of ******) was never taught basic schooling; reading, writing, math, etc, the elementary stuff. So technically speaking every child who has yet to go to school could be called that regardless of race or place of birth. In the days of slavery all slaves were called niggers because education was strictly banned for them. Slaves were not allowed an education and as such were not allowed to be anything other than a ******. What many black people, not all and I don't mean to sound racist by saying if that's what it looks like, but what many black people fail to realize is that they were not alone in being enslaved. White people actually enslaved each other first when they were tribal. Here in America the Native Americans were the first to be enslaved and their treatment was much worse than many people realize or at least acknowledge. My point is white people and Native Americans were also called niggers during the same time period. I don't know about Asians being enslaved, but being darker than white people I don't doubt at some point they were called that if not a number of other names. Back to the topic of modern culture, based on what I've seen speaking with black people they see calling each other "*****" as something like "fellow" or "brother," but when a white person calls them that they see it as a reference to slavery. They take offense to it because it leads to them seeing the white person as rude, disrespectful, and arrogant to suggest that black people should still be enslaved. Because of there being so much sensitivity related to the word I would like to point out that everything I posted here is merely for the benefit of discussion and education, not meant to be an insult, racist, or otherwise disrespectful message. <- My disclaimer, so don't hold a grudge against me... ninja Edit: The word "******" may have become racist because of black people being the most common, or at least the most thought of, slaves. For years if someone saw a black person they'd assume he/she was a slave, therefore uneducated, and therefore a ******. Thus black skin would directly correspond to that word. Just a theory. Where the HECK did you get your info from? Sounds like a load of crap to me... An old dictionary defined "******" as I described and a history class taught about how slaves were treated. I've also spoken with allot of people who use the term having been through the Northwest of America (where it's not commonly used), the Southeast of America (where it is used daily be most people), and a military academy where again the term was used daily by most of my platoon. I used it once and got lectured, fortunately I was around friends, so I asked questions and had it explained by them. Along with having read the word from an old dictionary they agreed that it means ignorant, but the word isn't socially acceptable when used by white people anyways. I pointed out that could be considered racist in itself and they shrugged, they wouldn't hold it against me but they couldn't stop others from taking it as a serious offense. Edit: I did mean to edit out that white people may have been called niggers as well. I know Native Americans have been and still are being Native American myself. My dad's white so I have white skin, but people find out I'm Native American and some of them will call me a ******. The reason I realized white people probably wouldn't have been called niggers, at least not commonly, is language. Language changes over time and I'm not certain that word existed back when slaves were white people. It probably didn't. Also, having looked up the word just now I see the definition has since changed. Apparently the myth of it being strictly based on black skin won over in the end. That is how words change, when society starts seeing the word as meaning something other than it's original definition the definition changes to fit what society interprets it as. Well... ****** meaning "ignorant" seems odd to me... Maybe that is what it TURNED into... But from what I know, it originated from "Negro" or "Niger", meaning BLACK. Black is a Gaelic word I think. Spanish/Latin origins, like most words in the English language. It's probably like the word gay, how it once meant happy/joy, and now is means homosexual. Or how some people say wicked, and they mean it's awesome. Cool = temperature. Now it is expressing something that is between Good and Awesome. Slavery being thousands of years old is not exactly old news to me... Roman Empire's main trade was slavery. The oldest recorded definition I could find was an old webster's dictionary that I can't even site the year of. My friends and I were exploring some old overgrown paths we found that led to an old broken down and rotting cabin. In spite of how unstable it obviously was, we went inside and explored it. We found a room with one wall broken off that had a pile of books. Buried in the pile of books was this dictionary. From what I was told by my brother, Webster's dictionary was written to separate American English from British English as a way of further separating our ties after the revolutionary war. I haven't looked into that so don't take my word for it, but assuming this is true the author may have also chosen to change the definition of "******" for that purpose. Words change over time, that's natural. It really wouldn't be surprising if it went from black to ignorant then back to black.
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Lord Alucard Ere Casanova
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:49 pm
Lord Kilo Von Mortenson Southern_cross_nemesis sad sweatdrop I am so sorry, I didn't mean to step on anyone's familial pasts. Just curiosity... I knew some stupid stuff happened in the past, and continues to happen around the world in "third world" countries. Hell even in our nation... sorry, Don't apologize on my account. I hold no grudges toward anyone and certainly don't blame you for anything. Being curious is natural and I'm not sensitive about this topic. I just know next to nothing about my family history, other than that my name is Walsh... and England wouldn't of done so well in it's pre blackpowder era wars if not for taking the country first. In doing so taking their archers and military forces.... And I like to learn, maybe a little bit too much
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:53 pm
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:04 pm
Lord Kilo Von Mortenson Qyp Lord Kilo Von Mortenson Qyp Lord Kilo Von Mortenson I'm not entirely sure how the culture sees that word, but "*****" actually wasn't a race-specific term until recently. It's original and to this day official definition is simply "ignorant" or "uneducated." It means the "*****" (slang of ******) was never taught basic schooling; reading, writing, math, etc, the elementary stuff. So technically speaking every child who has yet to go to school could be called that regardless of race or place of birth. In the days of slavery all slaves were called niggers because education was strictly banned for them. Slaves were not allowed an education and as such were not allowed to be anything other than a ******. What many black people, not all and I don't mean to sound racist by saying if that's what it looks like, but what many black people fail to realize is that they were not alone in being enslaved. White people actually enslaved each other first when they were tribal. Here in America the Native Americans were the first to be enslaved and their treatment was much worse than many people realize or at least acknowledge. My point is white people and Native Americans were also called niggers during the same time period. I don't know about Asians being enslaved, but being darker than white people I don't doubt at some point they were called that if not a number of other names. Back to the topic of modern culture, based on what I've seen speaking with black people they see calling each other "*****" as something like "fellow" or "brother," but when a white person calls them that they see it as a reference to slavery. They take offense to it because it leads to them seeing the white person as rude, disrespectful, and arrogant to suggest that black people should still be enslaved. Because of there being so much sensitivity related to the word I would like to point out that everything I posted here is merely for the benefit of discussion and education, not meant to be an insult, racist, or otherwise disrespectful message. <- My disclaimer, so don't hold a grudge against me... ninja Edit: The word "******" may have become racist because of black people being the most common, or at least the most thought of, slaves. For years if someone saw a black person they'd assume he/she was a slave, therefore uneducated, and therefore a ******. Thus black skin would directly correspond to that word. Just a theory. Where the HECK did you get your info from? Sounds like a load of crap to me... An old dictionary defined "******" as I described and a history class taught about how slaves were treated. I've also spoken with allot of people who use the term having been through the Northwest of America (where it's not commonly used), the Southeast of America (where it is used daily be most people), and a military academy where again the term was used daily by most of my platoon. I used it once and got lectured, fortunately I was around friends, so I asked questions and had it explained by them. Along with having read the word from an old dictionary they agreed that it means ignorant, but the word isn't socially acceptable when used by white people anyways. I pointed out that could be considered racist in itself and they shrugged, they wouldn't hold it against me but they couldn't stop others from taking it as a serious offense. Edit: I did mean to edit out that white people may have been called niggers as well. I know Native Americans have been and still are being Native American myself. My dad's white so I have white skin, but people find out I'm Native American and some of them will call me a ******. The reason I realized white people probably wouldn't have been called niggers, at least not commonly, is language. Language changes over time and I'm not certain that word existed back when slaves were white people. It probably didn't. Also, having looked up the word just now I see the definition has since changed. Apparently the myth of it being strictly based on black skin won over in the end. That is how words change, when society starts seeing the word as meaning something other than it's original definition the definition changes to fit what society interprets it as. Well... ****** meaning "ignorant" seems odd to me... Maybe that is what it TURNED into... But from what I know, it originated from "Negro" or "Niger", meaning BLACK. Black is a Gaelic word I think. Spanish/Latin origins, like most words in the English language. It's probably like the word gay, how it once meant happy/joy, and now is means homosexual. Or how some people say wicked, and they mean it's awesome. Cool = temperature. Now it is expressing something that is between Good and Awesome. Slavery being thousands of years old is not exactly old news to me... Roman Empire's main trade was slavery. The oldest recorded definition I could find was an old webster's dictionary that I can't even site the year of. My friends and I were exploring some old overgrown paths we found that led to an old broken down and rotting cabin. In spite of how unstable it obviously was, we went inside and explored it. We found a room with one wall broken off that had a pile of books. Buried in the pile of books was this dictionary. From what I was told by my brother, Webster's dictionary was written to separate American English from British English as a way of further separating our ties after the revolutionary war. I haven't looked into that so don't take my word for it, but assuming this is true the author may have also chosen to change the definition of "******" for that purpose. Words change over time, that's natural. It really wouldn't be surprising if it went from black to ignorant then back to black. Yes, cutting ties from the British Empire... that makes sense.
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:19 pm
I did say it's classic bullying, Definition two as ... bullying in schools today just comes from what people did 100, 500, 1000, 2000, 5000 years ago... Not calling them by what they actually are, or heck... you even say what they do as an insult. "Curry Munchers" for Indians. Honestly, bigotry will never go away. It's what people do... Making others feel inferior is is just what people do to make themselves feel better. Slavery was probably just so the Roman Empire was feared by all.
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:24 pm
Eltanin Sadachbia Wow... You hit a sore spot with me SCN... The whole subject reeks IMO... I understand your questions on it, don't get me wrong, but the fact that if you are white, and you have an opinion or a question, you have to walk on eggshells in discussing it.... Well... It's bullshit. White people were forced into slavery before the black folks were. In fact, my ancestry includes 3 white men who were forced to come over to pay debts to society. One because he owed money, and two because they caused too much trouble in Europe... That was before slavers started cruising along the African coast to buy slaves who were sold by their own people. Many of the African men who were sold into slavery were considered criminals or owed debts to their fellow tribesmen. The reasons they were introduced into the life of slavery were very much like the reasons white men were... Many of the women were sold by their own families... as is the case with one of my female ancestors... Who ended up marrying my debt entrenched male ancestor... It wasn't like white folk went in and started hunting African natives to sell as slaves. They bought those people from their fellow tribesmen.... If the European slavers hadn't of bought the slaves from the tribes there, then they would have still been slaves of their own people. The reason African slaves continued on and became more popular was because there was no court orders of specific time periods that bought slaves could be forced to work. Also, since most African slaves had no familial ties, or histories, it was easier to keep them oppressed.... Does this make the fact that people were forced into such situations any better? No... Does the fact that white people were slaves in the USA any more tolerable? No. You see, I also have Native American blood in my ancestry, and they were treated worse than anyone above. THEY WERE hunted, and their families and tribes were systematically oppressed, demeaned, and eliminated, either by straight up killing, or moving hundreds of miles out of sight... My family even has a journal kept by a several great grandmother of mine, how all of the men and boys in her tribe were killed when she was a girl, and all of the women were placed in what basically was a concentration camp. Yet, if we look beyond American history, we find similar stories through out all of history... Are there still grudges held? Of course... but as far as I know, the 'race' wars of the USA are pretty unique in that a large faction in one ethnic group is still calling upon another to make things right... As long as this behavior continues, we will not be able to progress passed ethnic bigotry. In calling for 'Affirmative action' and "Restitution' people will continue to set themselves apart as a different "Race". Hmm, yes. This delusion of "Race" has probably been extended greatly because of all the different fantasy/sci-fi stories out there that toss the meaning of "Race" everywhere. Modernization of words has made things worse.
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:42 pm
Qyp Hmm, yes. This delusion of "Race" has probably been extended greatly because of all the different fantasy/sci-fi stories out there that toss the meaning of "Race" everywhere. Modernization of words has made things worse. the term for race was used far before fantasy stories. Largely, because people viewed different ethnicity as being sub human... there for a new race...
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:49 pm
Honestly, bigotry will never go away. It's what people do... Making others feel inferior is is just what people do to make themselves feel better. Slavery was probably just so the Roman Empire was feared by all. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/ROMslaves.htmIn the bible, it was first used as a way for someone to pay off their debts, or preacher says so, but since it had become what we know it as
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:24 pm
Yes... some Romans did go into slavery to serve debts... but slavery did become a very big trade.
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Lord Alucard Ere Casanova
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:54 pm
On the topic of slavery I'd like to point out that Native Americans aren't really innocent either. Most had laws/regulations so slaves were not abused nor kept enslaved forever. For example, the Tlingits and another tribe were constantly at war. When one conquered another's village, the survivors were enslaved and made to work for the winners for approximately 7 years. After that time, assuming the slave had behaved and not tried anything to escape or be disobedient, the slave would be integrated into the tribe as a full and equal member with a celebration.
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Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:19 am
Qyp Yes... some Romans did go into slavery to serve debts... but slavery did become a very big trade. I did say "first". I agree with you,
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Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:14 am
Southern_cross_nemesis Qyp Yes... some Romans did go into slavery to serve debts... but slavery did become a very big trade. I did say "first". I agree with you, Hm, yes.
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