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 Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:15 am
Subliminal Aftermath  Pretty much, I'm in Texas. Ah. Gotcha. I would guess it's just as tough to be a liberal Christian there as it was for me here. Probably more so if any of the stereotypes I hear about typical conservative Texans are grounded in even half truth. xD
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:19 am
haunting heaven Subliminal Aftermath Pretty much, I'm in Texas. Ah. Gotcha. I would guess it's just as tough to be a liberal Christian there as it was for me here. Probably more so if any of the stereotypes I hear about typical conservative Texans are grounded in even half truth. xD Conservative Texans are ******** insane.
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:20 am
PeterPanflute WANT TO TELL ME ABOUT FIRE AND BRIMSTONE AND HELLNot really, I'd rather talk about God's unfailing love. Not saying this is you, but I've come across a lot of Christians who claim they're talking about God's love when they really just talk about how if you don't accept that love, you're going to burn in hell, but isn't it nice of God to give us the option to either be forced to worship him or burn for all eternity? Quote: I BET YOU MOLEST CHILDRENWhy would you even-?! Seriously, what?! >< People are dumb. I always thought that was a Catholic priest stereotype, though. Do people really sling it at your average everyday Christian, too. o.O Quote: Also, on a completely unrelated note, my brother came into the kitchen yesterday, said he didn't mind doing the washing or drying up, and then PMSed everywhere about the sink being ceramic, or too clinky, or badly fitted, or too close to the edge, the entire time. Take a pill of chill. I kinda want to make a snarky comment about your use of the term PMS...
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:20 am
Well, I'm Agnostic. But, I used to be Christian, and never once was I any of the sterotypes listed.
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:29 am
haunting heaven Well, obviously some people believe that, but that doesn't mean all or even most. :/ It's also not relevant to any of my points which were simply that Catholics are Christians, a Christian can be truly hardcore about her beliefs without being insane, and Calvinists are still fairly numerable. I don't want to debate on whether Christians are some evil force in this country (they're not) or whether they "got it wrong" (who knows?) or if claiming God blessed their forces is the same thing as believing killing in the name of God is okay (depends). I'm not even sure why you're bringing this up with me. You seem kinda angry. Eh, a little. I know it has nothing to do with what the original point was. I didn't really have a response because there is no true way of knowing which of the two religions came first because nobody knows what happened 2,000 years ago. And as for the Calvinists not being around, I'm just going by what the Doctor of Religion at the college here (who is a Calvinist) was telling his class the day I was sitting in. The following section will be whited out for people who want to read it. It is a rant about the history of European religion. It just pisses me off that a religion can justify getting away with murder and slavery and many other things that should be against human nature with their religion. (Going back to World History class, now) European man (Christian/Catholic/Whatever) went to Africa and saw the "primitive man" doing what they did. Because the "primitive man" did not have the same beliefs and "culture" that they did, Africans were deemed to "have no soul." Then there was the crusades, where Europeans went to war with the Mesopotamians (Middle East, if you were wondering) because the Muslims "believe in something different." From everything I've learned about the Qur'an, the Muslim religion is very similar to Judaism. The only majour difference between Muslim and Christian is the fact that Christians have a New Testament about Jesus.Rant is (sort of) done.
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:42 am
Psychoholic Slag Eh, a little. I know it has nothing to do with what the original point was. I didn't really have a response because there is no true way of knowing which of the two religions came first because nobody knows what happened 2,000 years ago. And as for the Calvinists not being around, I'm just going by what the Doctor of Religion at the college here (who is a Calvinist) was telling his class the day I was sitting in. The following section will be whited out for people who want to read it. It is a rant about the history of European religion. It just pisses me off that a religion can justify getting away with murder and slavery and many other things that should be against human nature with their religion. (Going back to World History class, now) European man (Christian/Catholic/Whatever) went to Africa and saw the "primitive man" doing what they did. Because the "primitive man" did not have the same beliefs and "culture" that they did, Africans were deemed to "have no soul." Then there was the crusades, where Europeans went to war with the Mesopotamians (Middle East, if you were wondering) because the Muslims "believe in something different." From everything I've learned about the Qur'an, the Muslim religion is very similar to Judaism. The only majour difference between Muslim and Christian is the fact that Christians have a New Testament about Jesus.Rant is (sort of) done. Well, I think the confusion is that you're thinking of them as two separate religions. There's no way of knowing which sect--Protestantism or Catholicism--is the closest to the original church, but each has its similarities and the core beliefs are generally the same. We might be interpreting "few" differently. I mean, I do believe Calvinists are in the minority when it comes to them versus Arminians. I agree with much of what you're saying, though I must say there are a couple key differences between OT Judaism (which differs A LOT from modern Judaism) and Islam. The most important being that Islam is a religion all about conversion and "submission." Much like Christianity, though Islam allows for more violence than the Christians' NT does.
But I'm with you on the whole "religion gets used to justify atrocities that should be considered--intuitively--wrong." I just don't think Christians are the only culprit for that crap--and I think Christians are trying to, er, evolve. Hence a great amount of Christians who are reinterpreting the Bible through a liberal lens. You don't see the same kind of movement in Islam (though there are certainly individuals).
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:51 am
haunting heaven Well, I think the confusion is that you're thinking of them as two separate religions. There's no way of knowing which sect--Protestantism or Catholicism--is the closest to the original church, but each has its similarities and the core beliefs are generally the same. We might be interpreting "few" differently. I mean, I do believe Calvinists are in the minority when it comes to them versus Arminians. I agree with much of what you're saying, though I must say there are a couple key differences between OT Judaism (which differs A LOT from modern Judaism) and Islam. The most important being that Islam is a religion all about conversion and "submission." Much like Christianity, though Islam allows for more violence than the Christians' NT does.
But I'm with you on the whole "religion gets used to justify atrocities that should be considered--intuitively--wrong." I just don't think Christians are the only culprit for that crap--and I think Christians are trying to, er, evolve. Hence a great amount of Christians who are reinterpreting the Bible through a liberal lens. You don't see the same kind of movement in Islam (though there are certainly individuals).I have to go do homework right now, but I'll leave you with this last little bit. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone of their religion, merely enlightenment. Later! But, see, the fact that they are reinterpreting the bible means that the bible was originally written merely to be a representation of what was happening when it was written. The earliest known copy of any of the documents that are in the bible were written almost four hundred years after "Jesus" died.
In fact, Jesus of Nazareth may be fictional. In every religion going back to the Babylonians (and even earlier, but I can't remember the name of the people who were before the Babylonians), there is a similar story of the Messiah. Dionysius, Horus, there are many others that I can't remember at the moment.
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:03 am
Psychoholic Slag I have to go do homework right now, but I'll leave you with this last little bit. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone of their religion, merely enlightenment. Later! But, see, the fact that they are reinterpreting the bible means that the bible was originally written merely to be a representation of what was happening when it was written. The earliest known copy of any of the documents that are in the bible were written almost four hundred years after "Jesus" died.
In fact, Jesus of Nazareth may be fictional. In every religion going back to the Babylonians (and even earlier, but I can't remember the name of the people who were before the Babylonians), there is a similar story of the Messiah. Dionysius, Horus, there are many others that I can't remember at the moment.Ooh, homework. So fun. xD Oh, definitely. You won't catch me disagreeing with you there. One of my biggest beefs with Christianity--and one of the things that finally led me to believe that it isn't the religion for me--is that a lot of Christians talk about the Bible like it's some magical text written for them. They divorce it from the culture and time it was written in, ignoring that it was written by certain people for certain people, concerning issues that we don't necessarily deal with anymore because we've "outgrown" them. That's why a pretty sizable (and loud) chunk of Christians believe in the whole "end times" nonsense--even though biblically they have no case.
Of course, it's the same for other religions (the older ones, anyway) as well. Not for the end times, necessarily, but just that you sometimes get people trying to apply their holy text to their lives as "literally" as possible.
Yeah, when it comes to Jesus, I kind of take him with a grain of salt. I would suppose it's possible that there was a person whom the messiah figure was based on, but a Jesus Christ who fits the profile as designed by the gospels? Doesn't seem too likely to me.
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:57 am
haunting heaven PeterPanflute WANT TO TELL ME ABOUT FIRE AND BRIMSTONE AND HELLNot really, I'd rather talk about God's unfailing love. Not saying this is you, but I've come across a lot of Christians who claim they're talking about God's love when they really just talk about how if you don't accept that love, you're going to burn in hell, but isn't it nice of God to give us the option to either be forced to worship him or burn for all eternity? Oh man, I can smell the irony in there ;D You have just pointed out the entire reason behind my actual mentioning of this here; as in, I genuinely am more interested in God's love. Part of this is because when I look through the Gospels, I find that Jesus rarely spoke in negatives. He didn't say "Without me there is misdirection, lies and death", He said "I am the way the truth and the life".
Also, worship isn't something we're forced to do. Worship is a voluntary reaction, or at least it is for every single Christian I've ever met. haunting heaven PeterPanflute Also, on a completely unrelated note, my brother came into the kitchen yesterday, said he didn't mind doing the washing or drying up, and then PMSed everywhere about the sink being ceramic, or too clinky, or badly fitted, or too close to the edge, the entire time. Take a pill of chill. I kinda want to make a snarky comment about your use of the term PMS... In reference to what? (; He's my brother, I'd just like to point out that I do understand that the actual PMS only affects women, I just use the term because we both use it. For example, when I get a teensy bit angry at, say, walking into my room and finding him dismantling my computer (which I think is completely legitimate, as opposed to getting angry at the sink), he tells me to stop "PMSing everywhere". Its not meant with any malice in mind. ;D In answer to most of what you said: Awesome, I didn't know you were a Christian! Yeah, I think each Christian's faith differs slightly; we were all made uniquely, so why should our experiences be the same? On the Church thing: lame that you can't find one that you like. I don't know what Texas is like for churches, maybe you should try looking around for a messy church, that sort of thing? They tend to be a bit smilier about everything, and a bit more liberal about the idea of what church is, and how it should work. On that note, here is a video that expresses pretty much most of my views on the institution of the church. "Church" to me is the family, not the organisation. Also, there are many sort of slip-of-the-tongue mistranslations in the english Bible. You know the bit about Moses parting the Red sea? Well basically, experts were really confused, because the Red Sea wouldn't have been along the general route. But then they looked at the original wording, and found that there had been a mistranslation, and it should be Reed Sea, which is actually on their direct route, and some people excavated the Reed sea and found like chariot stuff there. Humans are always bound to be erroneous.
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:43 pm
PeterPanflute Oh man, I can smell the irony in there ;D You have just pointed out the entire reason behind my actual mentioning of this here; as in, I genuinely am more interested in God's love. Part of this is because when I look through the Gospels, I find that Jesus rarely spoke in negatives. He didn't say "Without me there is misdirection, lies and death", He said "I am the way the truth and the life".
Also, worship isn't something we're forced to do. Worship is a voluntary reaction, or at least it is for every single Christian I've ever met. Cool, cool. Like I said, I wasn't saying you were the type to dress up fear with a big bow. xD When I say "forced," I mean that the entire concept of two choices--with one having entirely negative consequences--ends up taking away free will essentially. It's like pointing a gun at someone and saying, "Give me your wallet or I shoot you," then claiming the person gave the wallet of her own free will. It's why I can't take "hell" and "free will" in the same sentence seriously--unless the term "hell" is being used in a less traditional sense. Quote: In reference to what? (; He's my brother, I'd just like to point out that I do understand that the actual PMS only affects women, I just use the term because we both use it. For example, when I get a teensy bit angry at, say, walking into my room and finding him dismantling my computer (which I think is completely legitimate, as opposed to getting angry at the sink), he tells me to stop "PMSing everywhere". Its not meant with any malice in mind. ;D Eh, the issue I have with it is the fact that people use it as a derogatory insult. Like, "You're being irrational, so therefore you're behaving like a hormonal woman." Plus, I don't buy into the concept of PMS. I've found its so called "proof" has been blown out of proportion, and the whole concept only exists to discredit women by painting them as easily influenced by their hormones in ways that men aren't. Which is actually false. Men's hormones fluctuate more than womens' do, actually. I'm a feminist. Can't you tell. wink
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:41 pm
Personally, I'm agnostic, though I use to be a hardcore Christian. Even now, when I'm leaning onto the verge of an Atheist, I never believed in any of those stereotypes. To me, everyone has their rights to believe what ever they want, and we should judge them because of it. I understand how it feels to be judged. "Hey! Atheist! Your going to hell because you don't believe in Jesus Christ!" Well it's not that I don't believe in him, I do believe its possible I suppose, I'm just leaning the other way. Its not like Im against the idea that there might be a 'God'. "I bet you think we evolved from Monkeys!" yes I do. It makes perfect logical sense to me when you look at the facts. "I bet you think rape is okay!" What? Where the hell did you get that from? In normal society no one thinks rape is an okay, possitive thing to do. = .= Like seriously. Anywho~ I understand how it is and I completely agree with you. Stop hating you haters. besides, you can be Christian and believe tons of different things, not all christians are the same. We all are normal people and have out own opinions. Stop bitching because they are diferent from your own people.
That was my agreement rant. Hope you enjoyed it... o:
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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:26 am
Naunii Kato Personally, I'm agnostic, though I use to be a hardcore Christian. Even now, when I'm leaning onto the verge of an Atheist, I never believed in any of those stereotypes. To me, everyone has their rights to believe what ever they want, and we should judge them because of it. I understand how it feels to be judged. "Hey! Atheist! Your going to hell because you don't believe in Jesus Christ!" Well it's not that I don't believe in him, I do believe its possible I suppose, I'm just leaning the other way. Its not like Im against the idea that there might be a 'God'. "I bet you think we evolved from Monkeys!" yes I do. It makes perfect logical sense to me when you look at the facts. "I bet you think rape is okay!" What? Where the hell did you get that from? In normal society no one thinks rape is an okay, possitive thing to do. = .= Like seriously. Anywho~ I understand how it is and I completely agree with you. Stop hating you haters. besides, you can be Christian and believe tons of different things, not all christians are the same. We all are normal people and have out own opinions. Stop bitching because they are diferent from your own people.
That was my agreement rant. Hope you enjoyed it... o: Everyone has the right to believe anything they want, but that doesn't mean an exemption from being judged. That doesn't mean I think it's fair to assume things about a person based on what religion she claims to follow, but if I know that she believes something I feel is detrimental in some way, then I'm going to judge her for it. I don't think it's possible to not judge. Also, we didn't evolve from monkeys. Also, also, the reason people make the connection between not believing (or being unsure of) a god and supposedly supporting rape (and other horrific things) is due to the idea that morality is dependent on religion and "god-given." Therefore, they assume if you don't follow the do's and don'ts of some ancient holy text, it means you must not have a morality system of your own and/or that you rejected God because you wanted to sin.
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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:45 am
haunting heaven Naunii Kato Personally, I'm agnostic, though I use to be a hardcore Christian. Even now, when I'm leaning onto the verge of an Atheist, I never believed in any of those stereotypes. To me, everyone has their rights to believe what ever they want, and we should judge them because of it. I understand how it feels to be judged. "Hey! Atheist! Your going to hell because you don't believe in Jesus Christ!" Well it's not that I don't believe in him, I do believe its possible I suppose, I'm just leaning the other way. Its not like Im against the idea that there might be a 'God'. "I bet you think we evolved from Monkeys!" yes I do. It makes perfect logical sense to me when you look at the facts. "I bet you think rape is okay!" What? Where the hell did you get that from? In normal society no one thinks rape is an okay, possitive thing to do. = .= Like seriously. Anywho~ I understand how it is and I completely agree with you. Stop hating you haters. besides, you can be Christian and believe tons of different things, not all christians are the same. We all are normal people and have out own opinions. Stop bitching because they are diferent from your own people.
That was my agreement rant. Hope you enjoyed it... o: Everyone has the right to believe anything they want, but that doesn't mean an exemption from being judged. That doesn't mean I think it's fair to assume things about a person based on what religion she claims to follow, but if I know that she believes something I feel is detrimental in some way, then I'm going to judge her for it. I don't think it's possible to not judge. Also, we didn't evolve from monkeys. Also, also, the reason people make the connection between not believing (or being unsure of) a god and supposedly supporting rape (and other horrific things) is due to the idea that morality is dependent on religion and "god-given." Therefore, they assume if you don't follow the do's and don'ts of some ancient holy text, it means you must not have a morality system of your own and/or that you rejected God because you wanted to sin. Technically, we are a conglomerate of many different animal traits; but we are most closely related to the Bonobo chimpanzee. We share 98% DNA with them. We shed our skin (reptile); we are able to "breathe" in water while we're in the womb (fish); we walk erect (apes). There are so many others, but it's been eight years since my last (physical) anthropology class, so I can't remember it all. Beyond that, I agree with everything you have just said, and shouldn't you be in class?
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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:48 am
Psychoholic Slag Technically, we are a conglomerate of many different animal traits; but we are most closely related to the Bonobo chimpanzee. We share 98% DNA with them. We shed our skin (reptile); we are able to "breathe" in water while we're in the womb (fish); we walk erect (apes). There are so many others, but it's been eight years since my last (physical) anthropology class, so I can't remember it all. Beyond that, I agree with everything you have just said, and shouldn't you be in class? Oh, I agree we're very closely related to the chimpanzee (though I didn't know it was specifically the Bonobo). It's just... we didn't evolve from monkeys. We evolved from a common ancestor we share with the apes (and I would assume we share it with the monkeys as well). Saying we evolved from monkeys is a bit misleading, in my opinion--particularly when creationists have a bad habit of claiming that's what evolution states and then laughing about it and asking, "Then why are there still monkeys, hmmmm?" But I'm sure you probably know more about this than I do. I went to a Christian school, so what little I know about evolution is self-taught. xD Anyway, in class? Nope. Why?
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Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:58 am
haunting heaven Psychoholic Slag Technically, we are a conglomerate of many different animal traits; but we are most closely related to the Bonobo chimpanzee. We share 98% DNA with them. We shed our skin (reptile); we are able to "breathe" in water while we're in the womb (fish); we walk erect (apes). There are so many others, but it's been eight years since my last (physical) anthropology class, so I can't remember it all. Beyond that, I agree with everything you have just said, and shouldn't you be in class? Oh, I agree we're very closely related to the chimpanzee (though I didn't know it was specifically the Bonobo). It's just... we didn't evolve from monkeys. We evolved from a common ancestor we share with the apes (and I would assume we share it with the monkeys as well). Saying we evolved from monkeys is a bit misleading, in my opinion--particularly when creationists have a bad habit of claiming that's what evolution states and then laughing about it and asking, "Then why are there still monkeys, hmmmm?" But I'm sure you probably know more about this than I do. I went to a Christian school, so what little I know about evolution is self-taught. xD Anyway, in class? Nope. Why? Just asking... It's not difficult to get a college education without ever stepping foot in a classroom or paying an inordinate amount of money. Just go down to your local library, look up some college-level books about the subject you want to learn about, and start reading. You won't have any tests, no homework, and best of all, you can do it on your own time! The only reason I'm going to college right now is so I can get the proper documentation so I can begin teaching.
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