Welcome to Gaia! ::

Hear, hear!

Sorry, that was the first thing to come to my mind when I read that.

Oh, Miranda, I'm not sure if you're kidding or not. I'm not sure how much you knwo about the NRA, but comments liek that, especialy after postign somthign as beautiful as you did, and then to smake a group you don't agree with like that, mkes you look like a hypocrit.

http://www.nra.org/Default.aspx You can check out there media archives and current media. They do indeed give reports of when crime rates involving guns are on the rise or ebb. Although...most of the reports stress a need for fire arms for the people who were affected negativly by the crime. Alot of the stuff is on britian. SInce baning guns the country saw a sharp rise in crimes involving fire arms.

Washington DC has soem of the strictest gun laws in the US, its illigle to own one there form what I understand, but they also have soem of the highest gun crime rates in the US. This is quite debatable, but belongs in another thread, perhaps in the ED sexion of the guild.

Please Talon. You are an intelligent person as youve shown to a large degree in the few comments with content Ive read from you. You KNOW that the pro-choice side, at least on these boards, are extremely rude in their guild as well in the abortion thread in ED. Ive been told things like "your argument is stupid" and "oh come on, just leave this argument" and "LOL PENGUIN SPOON IS BATTING 0.000! LOL" and have been treated to the false kindness which to me is even ruder when you say "well clearly you are wrong, dear." and "oh honey you have alot to learn!" This condescening additude is even worse than the extreme amounts of baseless sarcasm attacking me and my wife. Ive been put on an ignore list for questioning the crediblity of a source. That is beyond childish. Ive been held to a double standard by your side here and abroad. Look at our guild, the few here that are incesently rude are not supported by the vast majority of us, yet, if you look at the open pro-choice guild and the abortion thread, you will see it FILLED with childish sarcasm. Not only do they attack specific members here and look down on our movement as inferior intelectually and morally in the most condescening ways, they also mock the very subject with their "LOL I CAN EAT 40 FETUSES LOL" and "OMG D00D LOOK A FETUS COOKIE LMAO." Whether or not you are pro-choice or pro-life you should at least respect the issue, as it IS a question of human rights, and at least respect the others side by not mocking what we hold as another human being. It is rude. And this doesnt just happen in their guild, but it happens frequently in the abortion debate thread you started. I suggest you visit it in once in a while to moderate what is going on there.

In another forum the pro-choice side found my wifes livejournal through some serious interenet detective-ness and posted her rants to try and discredit her. They not only harped on the idea for 30-40 posts, but they spammed every topic she posted in with "SEE WHAT SHE SAID ABOUT HER MOTHER WHAT A BAD PERSON!" They also made a ridiculous "photoshop" attacking Lymelady by putting "lyme b***h" onto a strange looking sculpture thing. They also posted Pryos personal...endevours when it had nothing to do with abortion. You dont see these tactics very often coming from a pro-lifer. Its begining to make me think that the pro-choice movement has less to do with reproductive rights and more to do with a certain mindset that allows for these uncalled for additudes. We give your side respect by not calling you baby killers and self-centered, it is only fair you give us the same respect.

I personally agree with most liberal stances, excluding abortion of course, and would consider myself liberal if it wasnt for the consistant method of "debate" that I see liberals use. From internet forums to movie makers to internet posters...liberal across the board put themselves across in such a childish manner. "LOL GEROGE BUSH IS A MONKEY LMAO" being one of my favorites. I have nothing against liberal viewpoints, conversely I agree with many, but I will never never call myself a liberal because of the way the majority of "liberal-minded" people act. (I remember two "liberal" students who threw pies at Ann Coulter when she gave a speech. The liberal side secretly championed this, and often even openly championed it. I guess the liberal movement still takes their ideas from Nickelodeon.) Pro-choicers being the very worst. And yes, I am fully aware that many conservatives and so forth are pro-choice, but it is concept of taking a liberal stance and arguing like a liberal that creates this additude of no regard.

I am pro-evironment, anti-death penalty, pro-social welfare, pro-gay marriage (even though I dont support it religously), anti-flat tax, and pro-life (edit: oops). For the most part I have liberal ideas, but I do not argue them insultingly.

Thank you for making this thread, because I needed to get this off my chest. I like you Talon, so far from what Ive seen. I have yet to get into a real debate where you dont hold your punches, so Im not sure how polite and issue-orientated you really are. However, I do like you, but I cannot let you say "WELLLL we dont really do that. And being rude is OK as long as you say 'well Im going to be rude now!'" You know as well as I do that there is no justification for rudeness when debating an issue of philosophical consideration. Hell there is no room for rudeness when debating an issue with intellectual consideration of any sort.

I will say however, that there are active pro-choicers who are not extremely rude. There are a few here, but they do exist and Id like to say to them that even if I do not always point it out to you, I want you to know that your politeness is ALWAYS appreciated.

I was going to say something, but Penguin Spoon said it better than I would've.

*Loves Penguin*

*...In a hetero way.*

By the way, Pyro, what on earth is the use of starting a gun argument in this thread?

...And for that matter, what does "smake" mean? And no, I'm not making fun of you, I just know it's not a word.

*applauds to Penguin Spoon* I could never have said it better.

Women should be able to have proper care in terms of health, abortion isn't about health, unless used in those specific instances. Ultrasounds are used to make sure that the child is okay, and alive without any abnomalities. Prenatal care is again, a lot for the child, some is for the mother however once again it's a health issue.

Abortion is a want, not a need. Women need proper cancer and pre-natal care, abortion is something that a woman wants to get (maybe not in a "hip hip horray" type of way but you should know the terms in which I'm speaking, you're smart enough).

I support a woman's right to equality, period. Abortion doesn't make us equal, and it isn't a need, no matter how much you may agree that society should keep abortion legal you've got to have your head pretty far in the clouds to think that abortion is anywhere on par with cancer treatment.

Equality means that you as a woman are entitled to the same things as everyone else, sometimes the things are different, because your body is different, but acting as though part of your body is shameful is not supporting equality. And putting a procedure that is on par with plastic surgery (except for the fact that it kills a human) in the list of a womans "entitlement" is not equality either.

And don't try to argue with me on that either, about jobs and careers and futures. Did you know that 90% of the time that you're more likely to be hired if you're better looking than the other people interviewed? That's straight from sociology class. So obviously being pretty offers you a better future, just like abortion for young girls, right?

We support women's rights until they start killing other people, then they're no longer rights. Twist my words however you want, make it as pretty sounding as you want, tell me that "I support a womans right to decide her future until I don't like the direction she's taking" underneath it all what I said is all there is too it, and the only reason you can't use those words is that it's too scary to think about.

Because what if we're right? Your mind can't process that we could possibly be right and your side could possibly be wrong, in which case you'd be supporting the mass slaughter of people all over, every day, just like Rwanda and just like Germany.

And us "Crazy fundies" are the only people who did anything to try and stop it.

If there's one thing that needs to be aborted it's the psuedo-feminist bullshit.

Ahhhhh....Miranda, you must carry my child!

When I read that I totally thought you said "we're just being democrats." and I was all "Whaaaa?"