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 Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:01 am
There is a purity within the faith of the uneducated that sometimes I envy, TBH...
I look at everything through the filter of what I have learned about Science and natural law, and so sometimes, I know I probably miss something I should really take note of, because it can be explained off as natural process...
... and I know there are spiritual signs that are wonderful and spectacular, because I know people who have seen them, those things that if they were able to be explained, they might have made it to the evening news, at least...
... and I have seen things with my own eyes that I can't readily admit without the possibility of someone committing me to a mental institution...
But the world doesn't see those things on a national level... How awesome would it be to have an entire nation see the same thing you are seeing, AND KNOW that it is God...
... and yet here in the OT we find Him knocking down blocks like a 3 year old trying to assert His God-hood over His creation...
I suppose it's pretty obvious by now that I don't buy the Babel story as a historical account, but I don't think the moral of the story is taught right either... It's one of those stories in the OT that I like to point out to the literally literal word-for-word believers and ask, "What do you think?"
Normally, I get the pride spin of the story's moral, and that God just had to knock humanity down a couple notches...
On occasion, I am told it is a story about obedience, which is always how I looked at it before, but then I must ask the question of free-will, and what good is it if you are going to be forced to obedience anyway?
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Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:13 am
Qyp rmcdra Qyp I have also noticed in the Bible, that most look to the sky when God talked to them. Not all the time though. Or like Moses, going to a higher place to be with God. And a lot of hymns and such have Him being up high somewhere. Also, There is no Hebrew word of Angel right? It was 'Messenger". Which obviously means they never really understood spirituality Until maybe around the time the Book of Daniel was written. Now I love that book. Supposedly it is one of the times Jesus comes down to earth before he is "meant too", when he rescues Daniel from the flames of the furnace. The "high" references are probably a combination of cultural and philosophical beliefs. Culturally, people did believe that the ruling gods did reside in the sky. Philosophically, gods were "higher" as in better quality or ranking than humans so if we reside where we do then these gods "must" reside somewhere "higher" than us. Plato alludes to this concept with his world of forms. Plato had a big impact on the development of Judaism and Christianity, than most realize. Why do you says gods... are you just generalizing? Anyway, yeah, I guess Greeks could have been one major influence in modern views of how we seen the Heavens, Hell, etc. Not just Plato though, but Greek Mythology with the Olympians, and all that. Though kind of sad that the most sophisticated and god had to sit in the underworld, and then later be seen as a Satanic being... Anyway, I guess Monarch titles all came from some one word that was used when their was one language. Gods in general. Early Semetic peoples believed their gods to live in the sky and to be "looking down" at them. The Hebrews were no exception to this. Christianity and Rabbinical Judaism were both influence by the Greeks since both have roots in Hellenistic Judaism. One of the big philosophical schools that was very influential was Platonism. While you did have the Stoics and other schools of thought, Plato was the philosopher of the intellectuals, the ones who helped shape these religions. Are you talking about Hades? He cast lots with his brother and won the underworld. While not the best region to win, it did contain all the wealth of the earth like gold which he had free access. If anything all sorts of gods got regarded as demons early on in the Church though you did have some sects of early Christians that used the Iliad and Odyssey as scriptures kinda like how the OT is used today. Yeah I think that's where the term "Your Highness" comes from too.
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Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:26 am
Eltanin Sadachbia There is a purity within the faith of the uneducated that sometimes I envy, TBH... I look at everything through the filter of what I have learned about Science and natural law, and so sometimes, I know I probably miss something I should really take note of, because it can be explained off as natural process... ... and I know there are spiritual signs that are wonderful and spectacular, because I know people who have seen them, those things that if they were able to be explained, they might have made it to the evening news, at least... ... and I have seen things with my own eyes that I can't readily admit without the possibility of someone committing me to a mental institution... But the world doesn't see those things on a national level... How awesome would it be to have an entire nation see the same thing you are seeing, AND KNOW that it is God... ... and yet here in the OT we find Him knocking down blocks like a 3 year old trying to assert His God-hood over His creation... I suppose it's pretty obvious by now that I don't buy the Babel story as a historical account, but I don't think the moral of the story is taught right either... It's one of those stories in the OT that I like to point out to the literally literal word-for-word believers and ask, "What do you think?" Normally, I get the pride spin of the story's moral, and that God just had to knock humanity down a couple notches... On occasion, I am told it is a story about obedience, which is always how I looked at it before, but then I must ask the question of free-will, and what good is it if you are going to be forced to obedience anyway? I get you on that. Because of it being a carry over and us not having access to how other early Hebrew sects saw this story, what this story might be really saying might be lost to us. There were many different sects of Judaism that were lost after the Fall of the Second temple and the Roman's ethnic cleansing. Not saying that it will never be rediscovered but it just makes it highly unlikely. There's always the chance of divine revelation that pops up giving new interpretations on this story.
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Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:28 am
rmcdra Qyp rmcdra Qyp I have also noticed in the Bible, that most look to the sky when God talked to them. Not all the time though. Or like Moses, going to a higher place to be with God. And a lot of hymns and such have Him being up high somewhere. Also, There is no Hebrew word of Angel right? It was 'Messenger". Which obviously means they never really understood spirituality Until maybe around the time the Book of Daniel was written. Now I love that book. Supposedly it is one of the times Jesus comes down to earth before he is "meant too", when he rescues Daniel from the flames of the furnace. The "high" references are probably a combination of cultural and philosophical beliefs. Culturally, people did believe that the ruling gods did reside in the sky. Philosophically, gods were "higher" as in better quality or ranking than humans so if we reside where we do then these gods "must" reside somewhere "higher" than us. Plato alludes to this concept with his world of forms. Plato had a big impact on the development of Judaism and Christianity, than most realize. Why do you says gods... are you just generalizing? Anyway, yeah, I guess Greeks could have been one major influence in modern views of how we seen the Heavens, Hell, etc. Not just Plato though, but Greek Mythology with the Olympians, and all that. Though kind of sad that the most sophisticated and god had to sit in the underworld, and then later be seen as a Satanic being... Anyway, I guess Monarch titles all came from some one word that was used when their was one language. Gods in general. Early Semetic peoples believed their gods to live in the sky and to be "looking down" at them. The Hebrews were no exception to this. Christianity and Rabbinical Judaism were both influence by the Greeks since both have roots in Hellenistic Judaism. One of the big philosophical schools that was very influential was Platonism. While you did have the Stoics and other schools of thought, Plato was the philosopher of the intellectuals, the ones who helped shape these religions. Are you talking about Hades? He cast lots with his brother and won the underworld. While not the best region to win, it did contain all the wealth of the earth like gold which he had free access. If anything all sorts of gods got regarded as demons early on in the Church though you did have some sects of early Christians that used the Iliad and Odyssey as scriptures kinda like how the OT is used today. Yeah I think that's where the term "Your Highness" comes from too. Yeah, speaking of Christians using pagan stories... didn't the early Roman Catholic Empire of Constantine first form through lies such as saying Jupiter is the Holy Father God, Jesus is Hercules, etc... Stuff like that? And Catholics, in a way, have waaay to many pagan rituals, like prayer to Angels and Saints. Like, Christianity is about worshiping ONLY "One True God", Yes I see Catholic people praying to Saint Mary to bless them, or praying for Michael to protect them, or something. Saints actually remind me of how Alexander the Great, and Julius Caesar were later displayed as deities. So really, Roman Catholics are just pagans in some ways.
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Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:43 am
Qyp Yeah, speaking of Christians using pagan stories... didn't the early Roman Catholic Empire of Constantine first form through lies such as saying Jupiter is the Holy Father God, Jesus is Hercules, etc... Stuff like that? Not sure about that but he did consider the Poets, like Homer and Virgil, to be inspired individuals foretelling the coming of Christ. Quote: And Catholics, in a way, have waaay to many pagan rituals, like prayer to Angels and Saints. What makes them pagan? Quote: Like, Christianity is about worshiping ONLY "One True God", Yes I see Catholic people praying to Saint Mary to bless them, or praying for Michael to protect them, or something. Well these individuals are already with God so asking them to ask God for help in way makes sense. Isn't it good to be friends with friends in "high places" lol. No one worships saints or angels in Catholicism, the word you are looking for is venerate. It's kinda like how you give respect to a King or President but you'd give more to a saint and even more respect to God. From what I understand there are levels of respect. Worship is given exclusively to God. Veneration to saints. I think there's a level in between that but I'm not sure. Quote: Saints actually remind me of how Alexander the Great, and Julius Caesar were later displayed as deities. So really, Roman Catholics are just pagans in some ways. And it's this kind of argument that has had many of the Early Christian Heretics classified as pagans.
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