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Envisioning the future of zOMG! 

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Featured Discussion: zOMG!'s Next Top Model Goto Page: [] [<] 1 2

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Red Kutai
Captain

Benevolent Codger

PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:52 am


ezaire
Could the model I suggested be considered underhanded? Definitely. However when I was thinking about this idea I was trying consider it from Gaia's perspective, and not the users.

You ask why shouldn't they just make it cost more cash to make the item? If the only involvement of Cash is in the cost of making the item, then the item is directly comparable to a Monthly Collectible or the random Cash Shop item like the current Forlorn Opera Singer. At this point Gaia then has to ask: why bother devoting artists to making zOMG cash items when it requires extra work for no gain when we could just release it into the Cash shop? Adding the requirement of powerups allows Gaia to have an income that wouldn't be possible without zOMG.

As far as a better re-implementation of Null Fragments, I think that could be a step in the right direction. Special item drops, however, could force you to farm different enemies depending on what special item you need, as they would be enemy dependent. This could help encourage people to play in areas and in instances that are rarely touched anymore. Over time new special item drops could be released and old ones retired. Getting a new special item you haven't gotten before rather then being stuck with Null Fragments could spark a 'hey something new' feeling, as insignificant as it might be.

As far as soulbinding goes, I think that soulbinding the special ingredients probably wouldn't be desirable in the long run (since you are wasting cash for them), but for the recipes themselves it would encourage people to actually play zOMG or have to spend money on the completed items themselves. For people not interested in the recipes, they can just sell them for whatever the sellback value for the recipe is. For a further incentive, they could even have achievements like alchemy has to encourage achievement whores to play zOMG so they can get the recipes and the achievements (soulbinding would be beneficial in this case).

Well, I don't believe Gaia has any more desire for it to appear underhanded than the users do - again, they get more than enough accusations of trying to 'cheat' their users, without a system that seems to trick them into paying twice. If people are going to be willing to invest in a system, it's only responsible to make that system as straightforward as possible.

So, to ask the natural follow-up: if you don't think that charging Cash for crafting the Recipe is doing its job, how well would the system work without it? If you remove the Null Fragments, and allow the Cash to come exclusively from your 'special item' Powerups, does the system continue to function? Does that make for a better system, than Null Fragments alone?

It's important to realise that there is no such system that makes zOMG! necessary - as far as producing items is concerned, zOMG! is just an elaborate, weighted Random Item Generator. Thus, any solution that uses zOMG! to produce items could be similarly (and more simply) handled by a RIG (or several RIGs). By its very nature, zOMG! will never be the simplest option for offering items, and it will never offer items or profits that were otherwise impossible. Continued use of the Recipe system will not be because Recipes are essential to Gaia - it will be because Recipes are essential to zOMG!, and because zOMG! will (hopefully) be important to Gaia.

I agree with you that your 'special items' system would be much more effective in decentralising gameplay in specific locations than Null Fragments, and would almost certainly generate more feeling of novelty - but while those are both admirable goals, they're not really the main focus of the system in question. It's always nice to solve multiple problems with one suggestion, but it's never ideal to accept a suboptimal solution to your main issue, simply because the system offers peripheral benefits. That's not to say the suggestion necessarily is suboptimal, but simply that - in context - these can't really be considered significant points in its favour.

Comparing it to the alternatives, however, I find that the Null Fragment solution is much simpler, and more intuitive - the assertion that Null Fragments equate to Cash is very easy to understand, as opposed to memorising lists of 'special items' which would be extremely daunting to players hoping to utilise the system. Null Fragments are much more straightforward, being that the items would have an obvious and predictable price, as opposed to the inherently unpredictable nature of farmed components. That's not to say that unpredictability is always bad, but that players are less willing to buy into something (and more liable to be frustrated by it) with the less certainty they have, of the final cost.

As for the concept of soulbinding in general, I'd oppose it without good reason; if the goal is getting people to play, I'd like to do so by making the game appealing to them, rather than by holding things they want for ransom. Any time we talk about 'forcing' people to play, or trying to trick them into doing so, that's largely indicative that the game is not appealing to that group sufficiently on its own - and there are almost always better solutions to that than a ransom. sweatdrop

Additionally, Pan's noted that Achievements have not obviously driven the use of features in the past - that users normally use features to gain the Achievements, and move on. Having investment-intensive (especially Cash-investment) Achievements would, then, presumably have a rather small potential audience, and would likely draw genuine interest from an even smaller subset thereof. I won't begin to assert that Achievements for the game wouldn't be of any use, but the goal of those should be introducing players to features they do enjoy, not forcing them to invest in ones they don't... whee
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:33 pm


Soulbinding is generally not a good way to go. People tend to get antsy.

Valheita
Crew

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Red Kutai
Captain

Benevolent Codger

PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:28 pm



Since this is quieting down rather more quickly than I'd hoped, I'll stir the pot a bit with something I glazed over in the original posting.

Powerups don't work, but that doesn't mean they can't. The trouble they have is that they're nonessential, and the extra power/convenience they supply isn't necessarily highly valued. The two obvious solutions to this are, 1.) Make them essential, or 2.) Make excessive power/convenience valuable. I'll skip option 1, for now; if someone else would like to play devil's advocate for it, though, you are more than welcomed to. whee Option 2, however, has at least some potential without changing the game drastically. We simply have recognise what Powerup use translates to, and reward it somehow.

What brought this on was Pan mentioning something about how leaderboards wouldn't function as well here, as in MoGa - because in MoGa, powerups directly translate to 'success'. In zOMG!, he argued, there is no noticeable correlation between Powerup use and Gold made - and thus, you can be equally 'successful' whether you've got Powerups or not. However, the assertion that "Gold made" is the best definition for 'success' in zOMG! seems a little strange to me - particularly if we don't really intend the game as a Gold engine. I mean, yes, it does produce Gold - but unlike games like Booty Grab, that's not really its main intent. I imagine there's something more natural in the game to indicate 'success', than that.

Character Advancement - Pretty natural for us to consider advanced characters 'successful', I think. The easiest measure of this that we have available is Total Charge; and having a daily/weekly/monthly/permanent tracking of Total Charge by leaderboard would directly drive the sales of the Double Orb Powerup. Currently, there's no real value to having obscenely high TC counts - here, we would give it a relative value, at least.

Boss Runs - For some time now, the mark of a 'successful' boss run has been speed. Having a leaderboard that tracks the time it takes from entering an instance, till the boss is defeated (and again, it could be daily/weekly/monthly/permanent) would drive sales of speed-generating powerups, like Superhcargers and G'hi Amps. This would attribute a little extra value to the obscene amounts of speed that those Powerups can generate, and actually rewards skillful play (careful ring selection, crew coordination, etc.) as well - something the game could stand to do more of.

Coliseum Trials - 'Impossible' ones, namely. The thing is, in my experience, Powerups don't make a huge difference - in Coliseum Survival (the one I've played most), you hit the threshold of impossibility at around the same place, with or without Powerups. Perhaps my experience isn't telling, though, or my Crews just haven't played as effectively as possible. However, if the instance could be balanced to allow further progress to be made by those using Powerups (how you'd manage that is a discussion in its own right, I suspect), then a Coliseum Trials leaderboard would likely drive sales of endurance-oriented Powerups (Revives and Superchargers) as well as speed-oriented ones (Superchargers and G'hi Amps). Again, we'd have to be confident a significant difference in performance existed, in order to ensure their appeal.

Apart from leaderboards (or including them, if you have something to add), how could we add value to the excessive nature of Powerups. Since I'm going to assume we want them to remain unnecessary, how do we turn that surplus of potential into a different sort of value?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:58 pm


Rather than TC, we should track TC increase. As far as that is concerned we should agree. People don't look at number of lifetime fishes caught either they only look at the season's correspondent catches. Not to mention that high enough TC would have the opposite effect of making people too far give up on it. So yeah, if there's a ultimate ranking for highest TCL, it shouldn't be the most important nor only leaderboard.

Similarly, Boss Run speed will ought to have a limit. But, considering that doing it with Total Number of Boss Lairs beat as might be no better... I'd just do BOTH!

I want to say something important regarding Coliseum. As a whole. Impossible needs a little fix. Several people got to wave 5 on survival impossible. Few got to wave 6. But almost everyone got it displayed as wave 4. Waves stopped counting as "passed" if the previous wave was still up when the next spawned. So generally, the Big Dogs were the point where overlap happened, the wave 5 ones being the true show stoppers: No one could beat the dual big dog spawns on time, EVER. Nor even survive just to see the wave 7 boss spawn, just out of curiosity. Big dogs hit too hard...
Specially problematic in Timed because extra time would only be granted upon beating the full wave (I managed to have over 2 minutes and lose it all on a "single wave" more than once). That bug, if fixed, would make progress just a tiny bit further possible, a well as helping crews who were paying attention to their surroundings.
Impossible is still easily the best to make a leaderboard for, since on Impossible, the lack of wave delay makes it so the challenge is the same for everyone.

I'll think of something else if there's something to add.

DrQuint
Vice Captain

Girl-Crazy Ladykiller


Red Kutai
Captain

Benevolent Codger

PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:22 pm


DrQuint
Rather than TC, we should track TC increase. As far as that is concerned we should agree. People don't look at number of lifetime fishes caught either they only look at the season's correspondent catches. Not to mention that high enough TC would have the opposite effect of making people too far give up on it. So yeah, if there's a ultimate ranking for highest TCL, it shouldn't be the most important nor only leaderboard.

I suppose I should've specified, that when I said "daily/weekly/monthly", I was referring to the TC increase over that period, yes. I agree that it's probably best to grant more value to those leaderboards that are more subject to change (perhaps even giving out Badges to the top spots, each time they reset), but keeping a permanent leaderboard is important as well.
Quote:
I want to say something important regarding Coliseum. As a whole. Impossible needs a little fix. Several people got to wave 5 on survival impossible. Few got to wave 6. But almost everyone got it displayed as wave 4. Waves stopped counting as "passed" if the previous wave was still up when the next spawned. So generally, the Big Dogs were the point where overlap happened, the wave 5 ones being the true show stoppers: No one could beat the dual big dog spawns on time, EVER. Nor even survive just to see the wave 7 boss spawn, just out of curiosity. Big dogs hit too hard...
Specially problematic in Timed because extra time would only be granted upon beating the full wave (I managed to have over 2 minutes and lose it all on a "single wave" more than once). That bug, if fixed, would make progress just a tiny bit further possible, a well as helping crews who were paying attention to their surroundings.
Impossible is still easily the best to make a leaderboard for, since on Impossible, the lack of wave delay makes it so the challenge is the same for everyone.

Indeed; as I said, that would probably be a whole discussion in its own right, how to fix the Coliseum to work more as expected. Still, the Impossible challenges (and Hive, which I always forget) offer a rather unique form of value in the game; I thought it only fair that we conisder taking advantage of it, at least... sweatdrop
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