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 Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:37 am
i try very hard not to shove my views on it onto others. but im very much agasint it. to me its murder. i can see some good reasons to get it done, like rape, or if the baby has a high chances of a horrible disorder or if having the baby would kill the mother.
personally though, even if i was raped i wouldnt be able to get an abortion. i dont expect every woman to feel the same way of course. but to me i feel that god puts every life on earth for a reason.
ive met too many people who get abortions way too often becasue they choose not to have safe sex or are reckless with who they sleep with
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Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:48 am
I'm fine with abortion. To me, it's not fair if you have to nuder/spay a dog or cat or anything else when you can't have an abortion. They nuder dogs and cats to prevent them from over populating when we're the most overpopulated species there is on this bloody planet.
And that argument: "What if that baby was the next Albert Einstein or Harriet Tubman."
What if it was the next Al Capone or Bloody Mary? (Yes, Bloody Mary is a real person. Queen Mary I of England. Look her up.)
Though I do understand why people are so sensitive to the subject. A baby is a precious, beautiful thing and should not be thrown about carelessly. But sometimes abortion is necessary. My second cousin. There is a gene in the family (that I'm not connected to) where if she was to have a baby that child would more than likely get a very severe form of Autism. She didn't get it, thank God, but her brother did.
I would never have an abortion though. I love kids to much. Abortion is only an option when you have a damn good reason to do it.
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Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:59 am
Bioluminescent Sharpies I'm fine with abortion. To me, it's not fair if you have to nuder/spay a dog or cat or anything else when you can't have an abortion. They nuder dogs and cats to prevent them from over populating when we're the most overpopulated species there is on this bloody planet.
And that argument: "What if that baby was the next Albert Einstein or Harriet Tubman."
What if it was the next Al Capone or Bloody Mary? (Yes, Bloody Mary is a real person. Queen Mary I of England. Look her up.)
Though I do understand why people are so sensitive to the subject. A baby is a precious, beautiful thing and should not be thrown about carelessly. But sometimes abortion is necessary. My second cousin. There is a gene in the family (that I'm not connected to) where if she was to have a baby that child would more than likely get a very severe form of Autism. She didn't get it, thank God, but her brother did.
I would never have an abortion though. I love kids to much. Abortion is only an option when you have a damn good reason to do it. Spaying and neutering and abortion is not comparable... Spaying and neutering and birth control are... The main problem with abortion today is that people see it as a form of birth control... If you are so worried about over-populating the planet, then go get your tubes tied, or get a vasectomy... that is what spaying and neutering is comparable to, and it is more responsible. People are so concerned today with the possibility that they might miss getting to do something. For people who act irresponsibly, in stead of dealing with the consequences of their actions, they rationalize murder by saying that the life that their actions produced isn't a life. I say it's time to get back to living with the consequences of your own actions, then maybe, people would once again learn common sense.
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Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:33 pm
Eltanin Sadachbia Bioluminescent Sharpies I'm fine with abortion. To me, it's not fair if you have to nuder/spay a dog or cat or anything else when you can't have an abortion. They nuder dogs and cats to prevent them from over populating when we're the most overpopulated species there is on this bloody planet.
And that argument: "What if that baby was the next Albert Einstein or Harriet Tubman."
What if it was the next Al Capone or Bloody Mary? (Yes, Bloody Mary is a real person. Queen Mary I of England. Look her up.)
Though I do understand why people are so sensitive to the subject. A baby is a precious, beautiful thing and should not be thrown about carelessly. But sometimes abortion is necessary. My second cousin. There is a gene in the family (that I'm not connected to) where if she was to have a baby that child would more than likely get a very severe form of Autism. She didn't get it, thank God, but her brother did.
I would never have an abortion though. I love kids to much. Abortion is only an option when you have a damn good reason to do it. Spaying and neutering and abortion is not comparable... Spaying and neutering and birth control are... The main problem with abortion today is that people see it as a form of birth control... If you are so worried about over-populating the planet, then go get your tubes tied, or get a vasectomy... that is what spaying and neutering is comparable to, and it is more responsible. People are so concerned today with the possibility that they might miss getting to do something. For people who act irresponsibly, in stead of dealing with the consequences of their actions, they rationalize murder by saying that the life that their actions produced isn't a life. I say it's time to get back to living with the consequences of your own actions, then maybe, people would once again learn common sense.
I do agree with a lot of things you've said. Even though I am more okay with abortion, I do think its a terrible thing to be taken lightly.
But one thing though, is it really fair to call a child a consequence? You've mentioned that twice now. Thats something that bothers me about anti-abortion arguements. You say to someone that has been raped or is afraid to have a child thats its not a bad thing, but then you turn around and call having a child a "consequence for their actions" in other cases...?
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Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:52 pm
Lord Kilo Von Mortenson SterlingRevolver Yes but if you read his post all the way through, he himself compares the embryo to an injury.
He says the mother shouldnt have been raped, but she was. And that many people are hurt all the time and must live with the injury, temporary or not.
the broken arm thing was simply responding to that. I did read the entire post, I just didn't focus on that aspect of it. However, I see his point there as well. My Pop having been in the Navy received a leg injury which, although treated quickly and properly, he still suffers from over 30 years later. He is now 75 years old and must take special care of his leg. Perhaps this is what Darialan meant, perhaps not, regardless I still say no child no matter how he or she came to exist should be murdered for not having been created in an ideal situation.
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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:09 pm
SterlingRevolver Eltanin Sadachbia Bioluminescent Sharpies I'm fine with abortion. To me, it's not fair if you have to nuder/spay a dog or cat or anything else when you can't have an abortion. They nuder dogs and cats to prevent them from over populating when we're the most overpopulated species there is on this bloody planet.
And that argument: "What if that baby was the next Albert Einstein or Harriet Tubman."
What if it was the next Al Capone or Bloody Mary? (Yes, Bloody Mary is a real person. Queen Mary I of England. Look her up.)
Though I do understand why people are so sensitive to the subject. A baby is a precious, beautiful thing and should not be thrown about carelessly. But sometimes abortion is necessary. My second cousin. There is a gene in the family (that I'm not connected to) where if she was to have a baby that child would more than likely get a very severe form of Autism. She didn't get it, thank God, but her brother did.
I would never have an abortion though. I love kids to much. Abortion is only an option when you have a damn good reason to do it. Spaying and neutering and abortion is not comparable... Spaying and neutering and birth control are... The main problem with abortion today is that people see it as a form of birth control... If you are so worried about over-populating the planet, then go get your tubes tied, or get a vasectomy... that is what spaying and neutering is comparable to, and it is more responsible. People are so concerned today with the possibility that they might miss getting to do something. For people who act irresponsibly, in stead of dealing with the consequences of their actions, they rationalize murder by saying that the life that their actions produced isn't a life. I say it's time to get back to living with the consequences of your own actions, then maybe, people would once again learn common sense.
I do agree with a lot of things you've said. Even though I am more okay with abortion, I do think its a terrible thing to be taken lightly.
But one thing though, is it really fair to call a child a consequence? You've mentioned that twice now. Thats something that bothers me about anti-abortion arguements. You say to someone that has been raped or is afraid to have a child thats its not a bad thing, but then you turn around and call having a child a "consequence for their actions" in other cases...?A consequence is a result of an action. I don't really consider the child as the consequence, but the pregnancy itself is what I am referring to in my above posts... ...kinda like when loving parents say their child was an 'accident', they aren't referring to the child him/herself, but the pregnancy... They aren't meaning it to be bad, they are just making the statement. You should have an idea what they are talking about, and you know not to take it literally literal as though the child shouldn't be here. Then again, my children were the results of my pregnancy, they are the consequences of me getting pregnant... not all consequences are bad, and it isn't always bad to relate to people in general in an impersonal manner (such as calling them consequences, or statistics, etc.). Consequences are supposed to be a fact of life. Consequences are supposed to be taken seriously. Consequences are important in defining moral boundaries, social obligations, personal character, and spiritual foundations... Is it any wonder that the fiber of today's society is in such a severe state of decay when so many, many people strive to eliminate the need to live with permanent consequences of their actions.
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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:42 pm
Eltanin Sadachbia Is it any wonder that the fiber of today's society is in such a severe state of decay when so many, many people strive to eliminate the need to live with permanent consequences of their actions. I'm going to assume you didn't mean that since I know you. I'm going to assume you meant that "people cannot accept the consequences of their actions". In the case of abortion, these individuals do accept the consequences of their actions. They believe that they are unable to raise a child. They believe that adoption is not a good option. They believe that pregnancy destroys their body and health. I'm not arguing these, but these are common reasons given for having an abortion. So what about birth control? Well most do use birth control and you know birth control isn't 100%. Also you have manipulative guys who go on "it doesn't feel as good to use a condom" (I find these men despicable especially if they know the woman isn't on birth control). Next, the "moral decay" argument has been used by nearly every generation. Every generation says that "the younger generation is in moral decay". Juvenal's Sixteen Satires written back in 2nd century CE, talks about how society is in moral decay. I do think there is things to improve here but I don't think we are in moral decay and recognize that it is an error of perception.
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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:42 pm
What I mean to say... is that actions all have consequences... We know that sex CAN lead to pregnancy and is a natural mechanic meant to do so. If a person is not prepared to be a parent, then they need to stick to their guns about protection, and abstain from the activity that leads to conception... Women go without protection, or tell themselves it will be alright to go without protection, or allow men to talk them into no protection, because it has been instilled that on the 'slight' chance they do get pregnant there is a way out... What people should be telling themselves is that there is the possibility that they could get pregnant every time they have sex whether protected or not. Their decision to have sex should not just include their romantic desires and dreams of special moments of immediate gratification, but the possibility that they may need to take responsibility for the natural direction that finding gratification in such ways can and eventually will take... Play with snakes, you might not get bit this time, but do it long enough, you WILL eventually get bit... no pun intended... Just as someone can choose to have sex, they can choose not to... and people have argued with me about how the desire to have sex is a natural and beautiful thing, but so is pregnancy, and the 2 go hand-in-hand... Sex is meant to make babies, and the pleasure we derive from it is to make us want to do it.
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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:46 pm
Eltanin Sadachbia What I mean to say... is that actions all have consequences... We know that playing in the mud CAN lead to and is a natural mechanic meant to do so. If a person is not prepared to be a parent, then they need to stick to their guns about protection, and abstain from the activity that leads to conception... Women go without protection, or tell themselves it will be alright to go without protection, or allow men to talk them into no protection, because it has been instilled that on the 'slight' chance they do get pregnant there is a way out... This "way out" there long before abortions. There were orphanages and cliff sides where mothers could let fate decide if these new lives would live or die. Quote: What people should be telling themselves is that there is the possibility that they could get pregnant every time they have sex whether protected or not. Their decision to have sex should not just include their romantic desires and dreams of special moments of immediate gratification, but the possibility that they may need to take responsibility for the natural direction that finding gratification in such ways can and eventually will take... And how is getting an abortion not taking responsibility? Orphanages are in sorry states and many are closing down. One just closed down in my county a few months ago. Adoptions are down. Men are not encouraged to take responsibility for raising a child. Our society imprints that women have to take responsibility for getting pregnant what about the men? Aren't they responsible too? I'd like to see abortions to go down too but until these attitudes and circumstances change, abortion seems like a viable way of taking responsibility. Quote: Play with snakes, you might not get bit this time, but do it long enough, you WILL eventually get bit... no pun intended... And snake bites if treated soon enough can be recovered from. Quote: Just as someone can choose to have sex, they can choose not to... and people have argued with me about how the desire to have sex is a natural and beautiful thing, but so is pregnancy, and the 2 go hand-in-hand... Sex is meant to make babies, and the pleasure we derive from it is to make us want to do it. Sex is also meant for bonding. The pleasure derived from sex can increase bonds between lovers. It does not have to be exclusively for making babies.
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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:01 pm
rmcdra This "way out" there long before abortions. There were orphanages and cliff sides where mothers could let fate decide if these new lives would live or die. Just because that is wrong doesn't make abortion right... now it is just a choice between the 'lesser' of evils... rmcdra And how is getting an abortion not taking responsibility? Orphanages are in sorry states and many are closing down. One just closed down in my county a few months ago. Adoptions are down. Men are not encouraged to take responsibility for raising a child. Our society imprints that women have to take responsibility for getting pregnant what about the men? Aren't they responsible too? I'd like to see abortions to go down too but until these attitudes and circumstances change, abortion seems like a viable way of taking responsibility. Once again, it is just choosing to take a different route of irresponsibility... So let's take a passive stance and choose the path of 'less' suffering? Parents who don't take responsibility for their offspring are sickening. The rates of children in the adoption system is sickening. But because these things happen does not mean that abortion is the responsible alternative... it is just another excuse why people will feel that they can keep living irresponsibly... If people had decided to take the responsible route, and control themselves, then there wouldn't be an a**-load of parent-less kids... But kids without parents (even the ones who live with their biological progenitors) are results of two people getting together for the selfish reasons of sexual gratification... Sexual gratification is considered the highest form of gratification in our society, and for that reason, people have pushed from their minds the stuff that sex was evolved for... giving a desire factor to making progeny... Quote: And snake bites if treated soon enough can be recovered from. Smart people know to avoid them altogether... rmcdra Sex is also meant for bonding. The pleasure derived from sex can increase bonds between lovers. It does not have to be exclusively for making babies. The bonds made from sex are as fleeting as the hormones that linger after... sometimes for days, sometimes weeks, sometimes months... but they aren't what lasting relationships are made of... Those bonds are the evolutionary mechanism enacted to keep a breeding pair together long enough for the greatest chance of successful conception... Sexual bonds happen in all animals, even the ones that don't stay together longer than a day... the same hormones, the same pheromones... Heck, it even happens in spiders, right before the female eats the male! It's what keeps him around her so she can devour him ... They are real bonds, but not what you should consider too important for the distant future of you and your mate... You should think of the bonds of sex as sweetener for the bonds you create in your REAL relationship... and even then you should be aware of what sex's real purpose is for... It's kinda ironic really... Society clings to the 'bond' aspect of sex and bases all of their cultural emulation on it... Our society put a spiritual significance on sex with the fervor of a massive sex cult. Now days, when I talk to my single friends about their disappointment in not having a permanent mate, they always talk about sex before love, respect, or even mutual enjoyment of another person's company (when not having sex)... not that they don't value that... but most of them are hung up on trying the sex out early, because if it isn't good, there is no point in really going much farther... No one really believes my husband and I didn't do the deed before our wedding night, simply because we should know if we have good sex together before we commit forever... The bonds we forged by abstaining are SO MUCH STRONGER than the bonds we create from the hormonal euphoria of sex.... the bonds we made by exulting in our mutual interests, ideas, and respect ensures that we have something even when we can't go at it like rabbits... AND... the non-sexual bonds we have are what bring a spiritual element into our sexual pursuits, and turn hormonal euphoria into something more than that... Yet, our society would have everyone believe that sex comes first, and everything else comes later (and have done a great job of convincing the majorities)... Sex is the snake oil of our culture in today's day and age... and people believe it is the know-all/fix-all... In reality, people living in this unrestrained matter would rather convince themselves that the life that they are responsible for creating is of no consequence, since they aren't ready to stop what they are doing to put someone else first... Instead of learning self-control, they will say that brainwaves and voluntary motor response is instinct, not a sign of budding intelligence... it's better to kill an a baby before it is born instead of after... and that it's more responsible to do away with an unwanted baby than to do away with a free lifestyle. AGAIN... I believe there are instances when abortion is morally upheld... but not the wanton baby-killing we see in society today...
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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:22 pm
Eltanin Sadachbia Just because that is wrong doesn't make abortion right... now it is just a choice between the 'lesser' of evils... This may be where our difference of opinion lies. I don't believe an embryo is a child or person until after the first trimester. To me this is not a lesser of two evils. rmcdra Once again, it is just choosing to take a different route of irresponsibility... So let's take a passive stance and choose the path of 'less' suffering? Parents who don't take responsibility for their offspring are sickening. The rates of children in the adoption system is sickening. But because these things happen does not mean that abortion is the responsible alternative... it is just another excuse why people will feel that they can keep living irresponsibly... If people had decided to take the responsible route, and control themselves, then there wouldn't be an a**-load of parent-less kids... But kids without parents (even the ones who live with their biological progenitors) are results of two people getting together for the selfish reasons of sexual gratification... Sexual gratification is considered the highest form of gratification in our society, and for that reason, people have pushed from their minds the stuff that sex was evolved for... giving a desire factor to making progeny... I agree that sex is idolized. I believe that there needs to be more self-control. I'm still not seeing how choosing not to be pregnant is being irresponsible though. But again this is maybe because of our different stance on when personhood is defined. Quote: Smart people know to avoid them altogether... Agreed which is why more educated people are less likely to have sex. rmcdra The bonds made from sex are as fleeting as the hormones that linger after... sometimes for days, sometimes weeks, sometimes months... but they aren't what lasting relationships are made of... Those bonds are the evolutionary mechanism enacted to keep a breeding pair together long enough for the greatest chance of successful conception... Sexual bonds happen in all animals, even the ones that don't stay together longer than a day... the same hormones, the same pheromones... Heck, it even happens in spiders, right before the female eats the male! It's what keeps him around her so she can devour him ... They are real bonds, but not what you should consider too important for the distant future of you and your mate... You should think of the bonds of sex as sweetener for the bonds you create in your REAL relationship... and even then you should be aware of what sex's real purpose is for... I was not talking about one-night stands or that was all to a relationship. I only meant that it can be a useful tool in enhancing existing bonds. Quote: It's kinda ironic really... Society clings to the 'bond' aspect of sex and bases all of their cultural emulation on it... Our society put a spiritual significance on sex with the fervor of a massive sex cult. Now days, when I talk to my single friends about their disappointment in not having a permanent mate, they always talk about sex before love, respect, or even mutual enjoyment of another person's company (when not having sex)... not that they don't value that... but most of them are hung up on trying the sex out early, because if it isn't good, there is no point in really going much farther... No one really believes my husband and I didn't do the deed before our wedding night, simply because we should know if we have good sex together before we commit forever... Well yes that's an ignorant way of looking at a relationship. While sex is one dimension of a relationship there are many more that should be explored. I agree that its silly to focus on that one dimension or to elevate that dimension to being most important. I don't agree with the idea that is promoted that sex is a dimension that needs to be neglected or ignored either. Quote: The bonds we forged by abstaining are SO MUCH STRONGER than the bonds we create from the hormonal euphoria of sex.... the bonds we made by exulting in our mutual interests, ideas, and respect ensures that we have something even when we can't go at it like rabbits... AND... the non-sexual bonds we have are what bring a spiritual element into our sexual pursuits, and turn hormonal euphoria into something more than that... Yet, our society would have everyone believe that sex comes first, and everything else comes later (and have done a great job of convincing the majorities)... Sex is the snake oil of our culture in today's day and age... and people believe it is the know-all/fix-all... Yes sex is not a cure all. I find this idea to be foolish. I don't like the fact that relationships are being made out to be only about sex. I don't like the other extreme of sex being demonized or that abstinence is a magic cure all either. Quote: In reality, people living in this unrestrained matter would rather convince themselves that the life that they are responsible for creating is of no consequence, since they aren't ready to stop what they are doing to put someone else first... Instead of learning self-control, they will say that brainwaves and voluntary motor response is instinct, not a sign of budding intelligence... it's better to kill an a baby before it is born instead of after... and that it's more responsible to do away with an unwanted baby than to do away with a free lifestyle. AGAIN... I believe there are instances when abortion is morally upheld... but not the wanton baby-killing we see in society today... Okay I think your facts are out of date. Abortion rates have been decreasing over all since the 90's and people are having less sex. People have been wising up to the media overall. The people being exploited by the media regarding this though are the less educated and those that don't have easy access to birth control. And again, I don't believe it's a baby until after the first trimester.
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Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:40 am
Touchy Subject.
But i find abortion only right for very little reasons.
Lets say you can't afford it..and would cause way to many problems (not fair on the child).
also if the child is like 1 to 2 weeks old in the belly,i don't consider it really fully alive yet,(could be wrong) but never felt it was..but its never to last to make a mistake cool
and if it effects the mother to basicly die,or the child dies,might as well get it over with...but if the mother knows she will die and the child will be fine,and she wants to go on,then let her do so.
but if the child is gonna die..get the abortion...
hope i put this in a good way,dont wanna sound like a horrible person
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:15 pm
When the day comes that the adoption system in all states/countries allow a gay or lesbian couple to adopt a child-
When the day comes that there are government funded day care centers in every country that support working families-
When every man who's ever raped a woman is found and forced to pay up for his crimes-
When the day comes that parents who have mentally retarded, crippled, or chronically unhealthy babies are given extra financial and emotional support-
And finally, the day when I can walk into a doctor's clinic and ask to have my tubes tied, without tons of questions being thrust upon me, asked to take a medical exam, a physical exam, and a mental examination to make sure I'm -sane- cause god forbid any woman who desires NOT to have a child must be mad-
Then I think abortion will be no longer needed.
Until then, it is a necessary evil, to help upkeep the quality of human life. There are already so many miserable starving children all over the world today, it's utterly depressing. Every child in this world should come into this world wanted, loved, and appreciated, rather than viewed as a byproduct of failed protection, incest, or rape.
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