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Primity Aurora Vice Captain
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 Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:09 pm
no, we can't just go around changing unit mechanics. like I said earlier, very little changes greatly affect the matchups. and like I said earlier, they have to be able to satisfy players of all skill levels. unless the nerf is absolutely necessary (ex. Beta Roaches) then there needs to be a very good justification for certain changes, in a way that will not completely break the game for any one matchup of any one skill level.
remember 5Rax Reaper? it was unstoppable in competitive play because they were easy to mass produce and had the same speed as boosted Zerglings off creep. however, in lower leagues it wasn't as effective because players of that skill level weren't capable of microing them effectively. reverse the situation now. remember the 5 second nerf they gave to Zealots? that was done because players in Silver league and below could not stop 2Gate proxy rushes. you hardly ever saw that play done in higher skilled leagues because the players knew how to scout properly and respond correctly.
Blizzard has acknowledged very recently in an interview that they are going to nerf Terran, and that it's going to have an impact on their matchup against Zerg. they have also acknowledged that Protoss lategame > Terran lategame. so if they nerf Terran too much, then sure it will satisfy the Zerg community, but Protoss may become too dominant over Terran.
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Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:28 pm
  If we can't change unit mechanics what can we change? What else is there to change?
Rather than just shoot down my ideas perhaps you could argue why they're a bad idea? Because I feel increasing the price a wee bit or decreasing the DPS a wee bit of Marines only affects the early game. Tell me why I'm wrong.
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Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:24 pm
In part I agree with Bi Dent the most, I really don't feel like unit mechanics are the most necessary to change, a lot of the problems occur mostly due to the fact that the game and it's strategies are so open in nature.
What may seem like a flawless idea is only because nobody has experimented enough with other ideas to counter them. They can't just nerf everything that is good, over and over again. It's a bad habit to get into to see something strong, or effective, and have a really hard time dealing with it, and then say "omg imba imba imba" instead do something on YOUR end to deal with it. Spend extra time, in painful detail looking at what you're up against, what are it's strengths? What are it's weaknesses? What do you have at your disposal, and how can you best utilize them to combat your opponent's strengths?
If you then have 50 games under your belt, where you have tried just about every possibility you can trying to combat this SPECIFIC problem unit, then it could be a problem of imbalance. But until you have tried EVERYTHING it's really hard to say if something is broken or not.
With that said, I believe the strength of marines has already been proven to be ridiculous by MKP in GSL.
When you can make it into the highest league of play, and transcend pro player after pro player and move up through the most competitive high level tournament in the community simply by massing marines, tier 1 units, then it's pretty obvious something is not quite right.
But this becomes a big problem when you have a game like starcraft with 3 VERY distinct races, no race is meant to play like the other, every unit is vastly different from the rest, and so balancing something with such diversity ends up being very difficult. Who is to say what is balanced in TvP is balanced in TvZ? Or PvZ is to ZvT?
I really do feel like for the most part players need to suck it up, deal with a s**t ton of losses and try to figure out how to deal with most things on their own, rather than always looking at Blizzard and asking them to nerf something because they don't know how to beat it, but in the case of marines, I think there really is a problem with the unit mechanics.
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Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:52 pm
we can all agree that each race's Tier 1 unit remains mostly the same, albeit a few differences. as people have stated before in this thread, Zerglings had a minor DPS decrease. Zealots have lost 5 health. Marines have gained 5 health and a minor DPS increase. each of these units functionality has remained the same, from Brood War to Starcraft 2, with the exception of the Marine. but why is this so? what makes SC2 Marines so much better than SC1 Marines?
the answer is control. with the introduction of the new SC2 engine and AI, Marines attain critical mass easier and you're actually able to cancel the attack cooldown into a movement and into an attack again. so realistically speaking, the Marine unit itself is fine. the true problem and complaints of imbalance stem from the ability to micro them super-effectively.
if we really wanted to nerf Marines, I would probably say to increase the cancellable time on the attack cooldown, or to increase the attack cooldown itself. only slightly, though.
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Primity Aurora Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:00 pm
Put like that, I can get behind it. 3nodding
I can't just concede a position cuz you don't agree with it. xp
Tell me why my position is untenable. That's how we figure out how to properly fix this thing. 
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Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:58 pm
marines have a 15 hp increase and way larger dps.
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Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:56 pm
The reason why Warpgates and Reactors are in place is so that Protoss AND Terran can keep up with Zerg. Zerg is able to amass a large army in a matter of seconds cause zerg units have amazingly fast build times for all their units.
Why do Protoss need Warpgate technology?
Zerg has a lot of options in the beginning. Zerg can create 5 units all at once in order to defend or attack. Warpgates are essential to any protoss. Warpgates allow protoss to keep head to head with Zerg food count. The reason I say it is needed is cause of many zergs putting early pressure in the beginning. Protoss production of units are very slow, however it is compensated for that fact they have shields and hit much harder than other units. However, the large amount of units zerg can amass in a short time obviously surpasses our UpM( Made it up,Units per Minute). The only way we can keep up with Zerg food count is through warpgates, or having 20 gateways (exaggerating) producing units with no warpgate technologies.
I believe the word "Swarm" is the fact that zerg can create units faster than terran and protoss. Even with Terran's Reactor, zerg still surpasses UpM(Units per Minute)
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Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:10 pm
i can often work fine without the warpgates, and still keep up with zerg, it all just depends on the strategy you pick. I can either 2 gate at the begining and have 2 zealots by the time a 6-8 rush gets to my base, or i can just cannon off my entrance. And normal gateways allow my resources to maintain at a steady rate with my unit production and allow me to get out upgrades and research with a more efficient and steady production. Its more about being proficient in prediciting and producing strategies based on what you know about the map, and the mix of races you opponents chose, and your opponents themselves.
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Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:37 pm
realmcutter i can often work fine without the warpgates, and still keep up with zerg, it all just depends on the strategy you pick. I can either 2 gate at the begining and have 2 zealots by the time a 6-8 rush gets to my base, or i can just cannon off my entrance. And normal gateways allow my resources to maintain at a steady rate with my unit production and allow me to get out upgrades and research with a more efficient and steady production. Its more about being proficient in prediciting and producing strategies based on what you know about the map, and the mix of races you opponents chose, and your opponents themselves. That is true, at the beginning. However when the game goes into mid game, and nearing the end. The zerg can mass units fast! Ever heard of the 300 food defence? Well, zerg can mass 100 more units after their army is dead in a matter of seconds. Once protoss loses their army, it is nearly impossible to keep up with zerg unit production.
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Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:46 am
Drag0n Claw realmcutter i can often work fine without the warpgates, and still keep up with zerg, it all just depends on the strategy you pick. I can either 2 gate at the begining and have 2 zealots by the time a 6-8 rush gets to my base, or i can just cannon off my entrance. And normal gateways allow my resources to maintain at a steady rate with my unit production and allow me to get out upgrades and research with a more efficient and steady production. Its more about being proficient in prediciting and producing strategies based on what you know about the map, and the mix of races you opponents chose, and your opponents themselves. That is true, at the beginning. However when the game goes into mid game, and nearing the end. The zerg can mass units fast! Ever heard of the 300 food defence? Well, zerg can mass 100 more units after their army is dead in a matter of seconds. Once protoss loses their army, it is nearly impossible to keep up with zerg unit production. That's one of the things the zerg used to always have, instant reinforcement, and swarming. It just seems the overall, "Swarm" factor isn't there anymore, just the instant reinforcement which in turn feels like a swarm, but in fact you have just as many units as they do, you can just remake them faster.
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Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:44 pm
Onos Drag0n Claw realmcutter i can often work fine without the warpgates, and still keep up with zerg, it all just depends on the strategy you pick. I can either 2 gate at the begining and have 2 zealots by the time a 6-8 rush gets to my base, or i can just cannon off my entrance. And normal gateways allow my resources to maintain at a steady rate with my unit production and allow me to get out upgrades and research with a more efficient and steady production. Its more about being proficient in prediciting and producing strategies based on what you know about the map, and the mix of races you opponents chose, and your opponents themselves. That is true, at the beginning. However when the game goes into mid game, and nearing the end. The zerg can mass units fast! Ever heard of the 300 food defence? Well, zerg can mass 100 more units after their army is dead in a matter of seconds. Once protoss loses their army, it is nearly impossible to keep up with zerg unit production. That's one of the things the zerg used to always have, instant reinforcement, and swarming. It just seems the overall, "Swarm" factor isn't there anymore, just the instant reinforcement which in turn feels like a swarm, but in fact you have just as many units as they do, you can just remake them faster. but thats also the point of building cannons/bunkers/etc, to stall while you make counters and reinforce your lines
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Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:34 pm
realmcutter Onos Drag0n Claw realmcutter i can often work fine without the warpgates, and still keep up with zerg, it all just depends on the strategy you pick. I can either 2 gate at the begining and have 2 zealots by the time a 6-8 rush gets to my base, or i can just cannon off my entrance. And normal gateways allow my resources to maintain at a steady rate with my unit production and allow me to get out upgrades and research with a more efficient and steady production. Its more about being proficient in prediciting and producing strategies based on what you know about the map, and the mix of races you opponents chose, and your opponents themselves. That is true, at the beginning. However when the game goes into mid game, and nearing the end. The zerg can mass units fast! Ever heard of the 300 food defence? Well, zerg can mass 100 more units after their army is dead in a matter of seconds. Once protoss loses their army, it is nearly impossible to keep up with zerg unit production. That's one of the things the zerg used to always have, instant reinforcement, and swarming. It just seems the overall, "Swarm" factor isn't there anymore, just the instant reinforcement which in turn feels like a swarm, but in fact you have just as many units as they do, you can just remake them faster. but thats also the point of building cannons/bunkers/etc, to stall while you make counters and reinforce your lines And I agree with you, but giving warpgates with lower cooldowns on spawns, and reactors makes this less needed. I'm on the side with zerg here, all their units are just as expensive food and price wise, but they get shafted in the stats. I just don't understand why they did that.
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Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:05 am
Onos realmcutter Onos Drag0n Claw realmcutter i can often work fine without the warpgates, and still keep up with zerg, it all just depends on the strategy you pick. I can either 2 gate at the begining and have 2 zealots by the time a 6-8 rush gets to my base, or i can just cannon off my entrance. And normal gateways allow my resources to maintain at a steady rate with my unit production and allow me to get out upgrades and research with a more efficient and steady production. Its more about being proficient in prediciting and producing strategies based on what you know about the map, and the mix of races you opponents chose, and your opponents themselves. That is true, at the beginning. However when the game goes into mid game, and nearing the end. The zerg can mass units fast! Ever heard of the 300 food defence? Well, zerg can mass 100 more units after their army is dead in a matter of seconds. Once protoss loses their army, it is nearly impossible to keep up with zerg unit production. That's one of the things the zerg used to always have, instant reinforcement, and swarming. It just seems the overall, "Swarm" factor isn't there anymore, just the instant reinforcement which in turn feels like a swarm, but in fact you have just as many units as they do, you can just remake them faster. but thats also the point of building cannons/bunkers/etc, to stall while you make counters and reinforce your lines And I agree with you, but giving warpgates with lower cooldowns on spawns, and reactors makes this less needed. I'm on the side with zerg here, all their units are just as expensive food and price wise, but they get shafted in the stats. I just don't understand why they did that. i just played a 4v4 last night where me and one of my teammates fended off a 18 speedling rush (triple speedling) with just two cannons and two zealots, it was amazing we won that game though.
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