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God Emperor Akhenaton

PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:34 pm


Why gold? That seems like less of a commodity than paper money.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:36 pm


TrutherMei
If I had extra money I'd probably invest a bit in Gold coins too. But as of right now, I can't eat money/gold, so I'd rely more on things I can barter.


Toooo many others are in the same situation. :/


BTW
Gold is at $1414 now.
It's rising pretty much every day.

ammaea
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:42 pm


Paper money never was worth a thing, it going that route later only sets things right.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:43 pm


Ledon Kester
Paper money never was worth a thing, it going that route later only sets things right.

Neither was gold. Do I have to repeat myself 7 ******** times to get you guys to listen?

The rose in spring


ammaea
Crew

PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:01 pm


The rose in spring
Ledon Kester
Paper money never was worth a thing, it going that route later only sets things right.

Neither was gold. Do I have to repeat myself 7 ******** times to get you guys to listen?



How can you say gold has never been worth anything????? Give reasons please.
And why are you swearing?? O_O;


"In fact, the properties required of money were first described by Aristotle in the fourth century BCE.

1. It is durable. It won't evaporate, mildew, rust, crumble, break, or rot. Gold, more than any other solid element, is chemically inert. This is why foodstuffs, oil or artwork can't be used as money.


2. It is divisible. One ounce of gold-whether bullion, coin, or dust-is worth exactly 1/100th of one hundred ounces. When a diamond is split, its value may be destroyed. You can't make change for a piece of land.


3. It is convenient. Gold allows its owner physically to carry the wealth of a lifetime with him. Real estate stays where it is. An equivalent value of copper, lead, zinc, silver, and most other metals would be too heavy.


4. It is consistent. Only one grade exists for 24-carat gold, so there is no danger of owning 24-carat gold varying in quality. Twenty-four-carat gold (pure gold) is the same in every time and place since gold is a natural element, unlike gems, artwork, land, grain, or other commodities.


5. It has intrinsic value. Gold finds new industrial uses each year. Of all the metals, it is the most malleable (able to be hammered into sheets less than 5-millionths of an inch thick), most ductile (a single ounce can be drawn into a wire 35 miles long), and the least reactive (it can stand indefinite immersion in seawater, does not tarnish in air, and can withstand almost any acid). Next to silver, it's the most conductive of heat and electricity and the most reflective of light.


These superlatives make gold uniquely well suited as a medium of exchange and a store of value. Arguments that gold's value is "mystical" are silly; it is simply one of the 92 natural elements.

One important last point was not listed by Aristotle, probably only because he lived before the creation of paper and banking.
6. Gold cannot be created by government. Gold can, of course, be debased with impurities or falsified in weight, and governments strapped for revenue have tried those tricks. But a trader can protect himself with a pair of scales or a vial of acid, although a familiar and trustworthy hallmark of a coin saves him that trouble. Unlike currency, gold cannot lose value because of government mismanagement. On the contrary, it tends to gain value because of government mismanagement."


Here is a history of gold:
http://www.onlygold.com/tutorialpages/historyfs.htm
http://www.talewins.com/money/goldmoney.htm



"The Case For Gold

It will come as no surprise to you for us to state that Gold is money. Why? because it fulfills, to an extent unmatched by any other physical commodity (Silver comes closest), all the pre-requisites of a money. It was rare and prized long before the concept of "money" was ever discovered. It has many other unique uses, and always has had. But for nearly three thousand years (since the first Gold coins were struck in Lydia in 700 BC) Gold's primary utility has been recognized as a MEDIUM OF EXCHANGE.

The history of Gold as money in modern coin form spans 2630 years, from 700 BC to about 1930 AD. The history of nothing but paper and base metal and silver coin in circulation spans about 40 years from 1930 to 1970. And the history of paper and base metal coin as "money", with no connection to Gold (or silver) anywhere on earth also spans a period now approaching 40 years - from 1970 to date.

To be more precise, silver coinage in circulation as money vanished from the world between 1963 and 1965. And on August 15, 1971, the world entered the first era in its history in which no circulating paper anywhere was redeemable in Gold by anyone. On that date, U.S. President Richard Nixon "closed the Gold window". This broke the last official tie between Gold and a circulating currency - which also happened to be the world's "Reserve Currency" - the currency held by all other nations as the reserve behind their own currencies.

The result has been the world financial system of our "modern" era - the "floating currency" system.

Gold And Freedom

The founder of Communist China, Mao Tse Tung, is quoted as having said that: "Power grows out of the barrel of a gun". Actually, it doesn't. Political power grows out of the ability to interfere in the voluntary interaction between individuals. In a society in any stage of advanced development, the way to do that has always been to gain control of what the society or nation uses as its money.

"There is no subtler, no surer means of overturning the existing basis of society than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose."

John Maynard Keynes - The Economic Consequences of the Peace (1919)

Keynes was obviously a much more subtle thinker than Mao. A gun is not a simple product. The ability to produce guns only comes in the later stages of the development of an advanced economy. But money is a pre-requisite of that development starting at all. As has already been stated on these pages, without a functioning money, progress towards an advanced economy is impossible.

Now, it is impossible to "debauch" Gold itself. But debauching money is not difficult at all. Both the Greeks and the Romans "clipped" their Gold and silver coinage - they began to mix more and more base metals with the Gold and Silver in their coins. Marco Polo brought to the West the first stories of paper money, introduced by Kublai Khan and made from the bark of the mulberry tree. Bankers, who were originally Goldsmiths who stored Gold for other people and charged a fee for their services, began to issue paper "receipts" for the Gold. As these receipts became more widely acceptable in exchange, the idea of "paper money" was introduced. Of course, the bankers couldn't resist. They began to issue more "receipts" than they had Gold with which to redeem them. And one of the first things that these bankers did with this "excess paper" was to lend it to Monarchs, and to early governments.

The Development Of Central Banks

The world's first major Central Bank (the Swedish Central Bank is actually older) was the Bank of England, established as a joint stock company (similar to the East India Company) in 1694. The bank was formed for the express purpose of making a loan in the amount of 1.2 million Pounds to William III, who had been running up huge bills in his Continental wars. The next major Central Bank was the Bank of France, established by Napoleon in 1800. With the exception of the short-lived "Bank of the United States", the U.S. did not have a Central Bank until the formation of the Federal Reserve in 1913.

The Central Banks actually had two purposes. In Europe, they were established to lend to Monarchs (which is one of the main reasons why they were anathema to the Founding Fathers in the U.S.). The other reason, which only evolved over time, was to bail out private bankers when they were caught out in issuing more paper than they had backing in Gold. It was the Bank of England which bailed out the Aristocracy in England after the 1720 paper adventure of the South Sea Bubble.

But the turning point for banking in general, and Central Banks in particular, came in England in 1844. This was the passage of "Peel's Bank Act", the culmination of a long debate between what was called "The Banking School" and "The Currency School". The "Banking School" held, as did the advocates of the Federal Reserve some 70 years later, that there was a need for an "elastic currency", a paper money that could be expanded to "meet the needs of business". The "Currency School", echoing Adam Smith and the U.S. Founding Fathers, abhorred this idea. They held that Banks should NOT be able to issue paper in excess of the Gold held by the banks of issue. Under Peel's Bank Act", the Currency School actually won the debate.

The problem was that there was a fatal flaw in the theory of the Currency school, which became embedded in Peel's Bank Act. The Bank Act failed to take into consideration the simple fact that not all paper circulating as money did so in the form of bank notes. There was also paper issued in the form of cheques, and this form of paper escaped the strictures of the Act. Banks in general, and Central Banks in particular, have been dining out on this mistake ever since.

The Transition - The Nineteenth Century

Up until the Napoleonic era in Europe, the major purpose of debauching the currency was to finance the adventures of the Monarch. Maintaining courts was costly, but supportable. What became unsupportable was the cost of wars. Most of the historical financial collapses prior to Napoleon can be traced home to the expenses of war. The other point to be made here is that "paper money" did not circulate amongst the mass of the people at all, and that few "ordinary people" had ever possessed a gold coin in their lives.

The Nineteenth century was a century of peace and genuine economic growth. This was the century which transformed the life of the "ordinary people". In Britain, the most advanced economy of the 19th century, the life of an ordinary person in 1800 was in many respects markedly inferior to what life had been like under the Romans 1600 years earlier. By 1900, luxuries that neither the Romans nor even the Royal Family of 1800 could have imagined were taken for granted.

All of this was the result of the world's only era of truly free international finance and trade, in which Gold progressively became the world's money. Both of these developments grew naturally out of a century of political freedom. As a corollary, there were no major wars between 1815 and 1914. The world was transformed to a degree which it never had been before, and never will be again. Why "never again"? Because the 19th century was also the end of the "frontier era". By 1900, there were no more blank spaces on the globe. Another such "frontier era" is certainly possible in future, but it will have to take place on another planet. There are no frontiers left on earth.

This closing of physical horizons led to a shrinking of mental horizons, and the result was one of the great tragedies of human history. This statement began to be heard: "The problem of production has been solved, it is now time to work on the problem of distribution". As all ideas do, this one became a physical reality, in Germany in the 1870s, when Otto von Bismark invented the modern welfare state.

The Century Of The Welfare State


"This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against Gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the hidden confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism towards the Gold Standard."

Alan Greenspan - Gold and Economic Freedom (1966)

No nation ever goes to war relying only on its taxing power to raise the necessary means to pay for it. The cost of the war is always disguised by debauching the currency. But in times past, there have been many instances when the debt incurred to fight the war has actually been either substantially or completely paid off afterwards. The U.S. did this after their Civil War (1861-65) - the "Greenbacks" issued to fight the ware were redeemed in full - and in Gold - in 1879.

The provision of a welfare state, with cradle to grave "security" regardless of the productiveness of those made "secure", is not financed through taxation. What is, partially, financed through taxation is the gigantic bureaucracy necessary to administer such a state. The actual provision of "security" is made, in its entirety, through borrowing, facilitated through the operations of Central Banks and national Treasuries or Ministries of Finance. The original (and only valid) definition of inflation is an increase in the stock of money. Only comparatively recently has the definition come to be a rise in the general price level. The reason for the change in definition is obvious, it conceals the mechanism through which the welfare state is maintained.

It is the rise of the welfare state in the century just ended which has made politically "necessary" the complete separation of Gold and what circulates as "money" today. This is the process that has led to the total destruction of money. Money is NOT wealth, it is a medium by which wealth can be exchanged between consenting adults. If an adult does not consent, then money cannot produce an exchange. Nothing can produce an exchange if the potential parties to it do not consent. But an expropriation can be produced, by a government with sufficient power. To obtain that power, money must be controlled by government. Today, it is.

And because the money you use is totally controlled by your government, dear reader, so are you. That is the case for Gold as money."
http://www.the-privateer.com/gold1.html
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:08 pm


"Gold at the junction of monetary systems

This helps to illustrate one of the monetary roles of gold.

A previously successful credit based system will eventually collapse under the weight of its historical circumstances and the excesses of credit which it is sucked into at the time of its greatest success. As the process of collapse unfolds one monetary store after another demolishes savers. If they hold notional long term obligations like pensions the underwriters fail. If they hold institutional debt the issuers fail. If they hold bank notes and the banks fail. It takes very few failures before the population starts to see risk in every credit based construct. Their faith in their institutions evaporates, and they become acutely aware of the dangers of anything intangible, and anything whose supply can relatively easily be expanded. This is when they begin to think obsessively about things whose supply is subject to some fundamental limit.

It becomes possible to understand why gold re-materialises as the only good money in times of such great economic distress. During such a period the most valued asset is the one which is incorruptible, and because the scarcity of gold is almost uniquely beyond the power of men to change (and because it can be discreetly owned) it is gold which re-appears as the agent of wealth storage and transfer at the junctions between the much longer episodes of representative money.

At these relatively rare junction points, as the wheel of optimal monetary solutions turns through its phases, ownership of gold is what empowers a bold and contrarian few to take control of large amounts of capital. Even as gold comes back into vogue, so the seeds of the new representative fiat currency system which will subsequently replace it will start to germinate, for the simple reason that there is never enough gold to finance the opportunities for growth in a potentially successful economic state.

When the economic conditions are right for productive work and useful business development gold is an inferior form of money. Given two neighbouring currency systems, one gold based and one fiat, and with a decent variety of opportunities with underlying demand, the fiat system will comfortably outperform the gold system. Braver businessmen will back 2, 3 or 4 ventures at once, rather than the single project which gold allows, and they will usually win the race to the top of the economic pile.

So at least half the art is to appreciate that there is no permanent answer, and that ultimate success depends on being flexible enough to profit from a return to a token based monetary system.
Gold as a money of choice

But gold does not only appear at the death of an old fiat system.

In complete contrast gold also operates as money under the completely opposite circumstances, when all is well; so well that there is indeed enough to go round.

The available evidence suggests that gold will often be adopted as money by the richest trading cultures (or occasionally international plunderers) of any given era.

When the Ionians were the commercial powerhouse of the eastern Mediterranean gold became their currency - taking over from iron. The same happened for the Athenians. It occurred again for the Romans in the first millennium, for the Venetians at the start of the renaissance, for the Spanish in the 16th century, for Britain in the 19th century, and in America through until 1933. In every case, except the Spanish who simply grabbed the stuff, these societies enjoyed a substantial and prolonged trade surplus. (Though to be fair to the Spanish some of the historical rules about trade were not so very different from the Spanish style gold-grab.)

Gold was how they balanced the books. It was simply the easiest thing to acquire and bring home from their foreign adventures - whether military or commercial - and it was a convenient way of avoiding a risky accumulation of foreign wealth.

This is not mandated by some monetary rulebook which says that gold shall balance the books, it just happens to be very convenient because gold is compact, scarce, easily recognised, not subject to variations in composition in different countries, consistently retains international purchasing power, and once refined has no technological, legal/administrative, or labour component as part of its value. It is an ideal medium for repatriating foreign earnings.

Traders and adventurers bringing home gold start shopping with bullion. They may even coin gold themselves, and the associated prestige has often been sought by whomever controls the state's money. Where gold is the unit of money in use by the rich - and it is in sufficient supply - there is no obvious reason why a central bank should not take to issuing gold coinage or gold backed notes itself. And that is precisely what has frequently happened.

But it is never a phenomenon which is available everywhere at once, only, in fact, to one or two strong trading countries in the world at any given time, and then temporarily. The accumulated wealth undermines the productive energies of its creators. Their domestic producers start to concentrate on supplying things which poorer countries neither want nor can afford, and the bullion inflow stalls. As that trading strength diminishes over time the power of Gresham's law dominates, and gold circulation diminishes irreversibly - as the great Winston Churchill found out when he tried to return Britain to the gold standard in 1925.

Gold based money - even for economic superpowers - is temporary. It disappears from circulation and seeks out the next great producers - to whom it will generally gravitate in settlement of new international trading debts.

Curiously the strongest industrial exporting nations of the last 50 years (notably Japan and Germany) have chosen to accumulate US dollars rather than gold, and now, instead of possessing bullion within their own borders these great exporters now own substantial slices - apparently some 40% - of the capital stock of foreign countries (particularly the United States) which buy their exports.

This is a break with ordinary patterns of international trade. It indicates that Germany and Japan are trusting the people of the USA to defend foreigners' property rights over American self-interest.

Meanwhile it explains - in part - the relative availability of gold and its low price by previous standards. It also raises the question of the attitude towards dollars (and gold) by the next generation of exporting powerhouses.

There is evidence that the Arabian oil exporters show a growing appetite for gold, with Dubai having comfortably the largest per capita gold inventory in the world, and Saudi Arabia having a reducing tolerance for dollars. Equally interesting is a growing Chinese demand. After a prolonged abolition of private gold ownership, and co-incident with its growing status as a world exporter, China has recently created its Shanghai Gold Exchange and is extending the right to private gold ownership to individuals. It would be wrong to assume that this presages a common use of gold as money within China, but its use within the trading elite of Chinese society is certainly consistent with previous episodes."
http://www.galmarley.com/framesets/fs_monetary_history_faqs.htm

ammaea
Crew


ammaea
Crew

PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:18 pm


Keeping to the topic of Gold and Silver -> I've heard reports of silver possibly gaining in value incredibly fast soon enough to possibly out-value that of gold. Simply because of its increase of uses - therefore making it more valuable.

Silver at the moment though is good for smaller currency as gold is worth just too much for such small amounts. (a piece of gold the size of a grain of sugar is supposedly worth around 10 cents)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:02 pm


So what happens when the precious metal bubble bursts like the housing bubble did?

I'm also not confident how valuable gold will remain when there's nothing to compare it against. Again, when food is scarce no one is going to trade their food for something as useless as gold. It all depends on how dire the circumstances are. At the moment gold is probably a good investment. Eventually the bottom is going to fall out though.

I just don't see it as any kind of security against a particularly dire future. Non-perishable food is probably a better investment for that kind of thing.

Obscurus
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:07 pm


Think of it this way.
A lump of gold or silver is just a lump of gold or silver. The reason it has value is because it's price is determined by the spending power of the dollar.
The value is still that of a lump of gold or silver. Its the purchasing power of the dollar dropping further and further.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:14 pm


and here's where I bring you back to my previous post:


"maybe during the initial panic no one will be thinking in terms of money/value, but for long term stealing and rioting and expecting to survive doesn't seem likely.."


having gold AND food would be best.
there will be a form of money established again, therefore sitting on some gold wouldn't be bad.. sitting in a house full of dvds and electronics and useless stuff is however not useful.

ALL I'm saying is that gold is one of THE most worthwhile items to have as it is proven time and time again to be easily bartered with.

ammaea
Crew


ammaea
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:23 pm


and going back to the initial topic:

I am watching the gold market.
also inflation.

also our ability to grow food and ability to survive - or lack of..

*shrug*

smarter than wasting hours watching movies and playing video games?



and sure it could bottom out, but it'd still be worth something. Gold is USEFUL. it is conductive, and malleable, and shiny~ annnnd it could go up in value again. Also, as I said in previous post - Silver is on the rise too.

I'd rather own some of that than waste my money on consumables I don't need, or random crap I don't need. When I buy something - I think to myself 'how much do I actually need this'. Unfortunately, like most, I have a budget... annnnd also a husband who get's say in where money goes~ :/
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:46 am


I'm not doubting the value of gold currently. I just don't think that in an "end of civilization" scenario it would be very useful. Sure, gold is conductive, doesn't corrode, and it's malleable, but if you aren't making electronics then why do you care about it's practical applications?

I'm an alchemist; I understand the value and symbolism of gold. I just don't think people are going to be bartering food for gold if food is so scarce. Ideally you would have food and gold, as you said. I would put food as the priority though as gold will give you no nutrition if you eat it.

As to whether it's smarter to monitor all of that stuff than watch movies and play video games: I think that depends on the perspective. I'd much rather watch a movie or play a game than worry all day about things I have no control over. I'm confident in my ability to survive so I just don't worry about it. I don't have the money to invest in a hunk of gold that will just lie around in my safe so I don't worry about the price of it. I think that if I was going to invest in gold I'd be better off in investing in a company that mines gold or other precious minerals.

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ammaea
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:00 am


Obscurus
I'm not doubting the value of gold currently. I just don't think that in an "end of civilization" scenario it would be very useful. Sure, gold is conductive, doesn't corrode, and it's malleable, but if you aren't making electronics then why do you care about it's practical applications?

I'm an alchemist; I understand the value and symbolism of gold. I just don't think people are going to be bartering food for gold if food is so scarce. Ideally you would have food and gold, as you said. I would put food as the priority though as gold will give you no nutrition if you eat it.

As to whether it's smarter to monitor all of that stuff than watch movies and play video games: I think that depends on the perspective. I'd much rather watch a movie or play a game than worry all day about things I have no control over. I'm confident in my ability to survive so I just don't worry about it. I don't have the money to invest in a hunk of gold that will just lie around in my safe so I don't worry about the price of it. I think that if I was going to invest in gold I'd be better off in investing in a company that mines gold or other precious minerals.



And I hope that by studying how to survive and eventually getting my own home and being able to learn to garden will help me in the end to get past the inital 'craze'. The Great Panic if you will~ I know that, yes, a collapse of the world could begin as early as tomorrow - but it may not happen for 5 years, 10 years, maybe not even for 50 years until I've taught my family how to survive. Anyway - I don't let it overwhelm me. I'm not saying i Don't play ANY games - obviously I play a lot~ I build forts all day and go tromping around outside with my daughter too~ razz Time is what you make of it.
And if I can set aside money to buy gold and food and enough to get a house and water generator - then I sure as hell am going to try. I know there is A LOT about me that needs a good kick in the butt, however, I think a lot of me is on the right track to a better life - rather than sittin like a bump on a log watching tv all day. Know what I mean? o_o

and ofcourse this topic was supposed to peak interest in others and gain discussion - for my benefit as well. Job done, right? ^^ It really does suck that I don't know many people who would even begin to ask questions... I dunno. maybe I ask too many questions and should just go veg somewhere~
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:26 pm


I'm going to ignore all of that except for #5 because of practicality. Gold as a metal is very useless. It is soft so it can't be used in machines. It is heavy so it can't be used in vehicles, but it's not as heavy as lead so it's useless for ammunition. The only 2 things it does have is that it won't rust and it is a good conductor. So when a depression does hit, gold won't feed your family, you won't be able to make it into a tool and electronics would be the least of your worries. You don't seem to quite get it that gold is faith-based. It had no use until electronics came to play and by then, we stopped using gold. So the entire time we had gold, it was based off of faith. So am I getting to you at all or are you just plugging your ears and denying all of it?

The rose in spring


ammaea
Crew

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:41 pm


it's not Just based on faith though. Gold has been used for MANY centuries - even without being easily traded as a form money.

It is easily recognizable.. etc etc etc I've already been over the uses, there are ones I haven't covered I don't think - being flattened into thin stuff, it holds heat, it can be formed into thin wire.. *shrug*

Civilizations have crumbled before, and yet, up from the rubble people came~

and eventually needed to have things they could trade for other things.

I for one wish I had of bought a bunch like 5 years ago when I first started to learn of it's increase.. back when the 'amero' was first being conjured.. etc..
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