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 Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:11 am
"Just because people die from illegal things doesn't mean we should make them legal"
Abortion isn't Illegal though. It is perfectly legal to get an unwanted clump of cells removed from your body before it grows into anything close to resembling the human being it may or may not develop into.
By your same argument
Just because clumps of cells die from legal things doesn't mean we should make them illegal...
If death isn't a reason to change the law, as you put it...then why change the existing one?
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:12 am
lymelady black market abortion would be just like it was before...done in doctor's offices by the same people who do legal abortions now. Those abortionists didn't disappear after they were allowed to practice abortion, they just had government sanction. ...I have yet to hear of a clinical abortion being carried out by anyone with a coat hanger...
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:07 am
Eeowynn I.Am Eeowynn I have to say I disagree with the quote; ""May the Fetus You Save From Being Dismembered Thanks to People Like Me Who Advocate Unrestricted Abortion be Gay"." It seems to assume that pro-choice people *all* think abortion should be unrestricted, simply because they don't want it to become illegal and have many women and fetuses die horribly in black market abortion operating theatres..? Generally, however, ya'll do support abortion being restricted as little as possible; After all, ya'll are always saying that the fetus is not a human being, so ya'll should support unrestricted abortion up until the point that it becomes a human being.Also, just because people die from illegal things doesn't mean we should make them legal. And ya'll don't really seem to care that much about the "fetuses dying horribly" in white-market abortion clinics.
That child is ALWAYS alive, and is simply growing, through the pregnancy. A fetus fits the definition of a human organism, in spades.
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:00 am
Eeowynn "Just because people die from illegal things doesn't mean we should make them legal" Abortion isn't Illegal though. It is perfectly legal to get an unwanted clump of cells removed from your body before it grows into anything close to resembling the human being it may or may not develop into. By your same argument Just because clumps of cells die from legal things doesn't mean we should make them illegal... If death isn't a reason to change the law, as you put it...then why change the existing one? The vast majority of woman don't even knwo they are pregnant untill after its no longer "A clump of cells."
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:10 am
Eeowynn lymelady black market abortion would be just like it was before...done in doctor's offices by the same people who do legal abortions now. Those abortionists didn't disappear after they were allowed to practice abortion, they just had government sanction. ...I have yet to hear of a clinical abortion being carried out by anyone with a coat hanger... I have yet to hear of illegal coat hanger abortions being stopped by the legalization of abortion. Perhaps the group of women who still perform abortions on themselves just doesn't know about the legalization of abortion? Coathanger abortions weren't as widely spread as you'd like to think, and the number of deaths from illegal abortions wasn't any higher before RvW than it was afterwards.
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:35 am
Eeowynn I.Am Generally, however, ya'll do support abortion being restricted as little as possible; After all, ya'll are always saying that the fetus is not a human being, so ya'll should support unrestricted abortion up until the point that it becomes a human being.Also, just because people die from illegal things doesn't mean we should make them legal. And ya'll don't really seem to care that much about the "fetuses dying horribly" in white-market abortion clinics.That doesn't make any sense. You say that it becomes a person when the woman decides it's a person. So why don't you support unrestricted abortion? If abortion were completely unrestricted, the woman could decide for herself whether it's a person, and not kill it after it becomes a person in her eyes. The placenta and umbilical cord are, I believe, a part of the mother or a part of the child. I'm not sure which. But they do not have full and unique DNA. Quote: See above. As I only believe in abortion to the point where I would consider that ball of cells a person, then I wouldn't consider abortion "killing" anymore than say...having a mole removed as "killing." You can't "kill" what isn't "alive" ... A mole is not scientifically and individually alive, a fetus is. A mole is part of your body, a fetus is not.
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:37 am
Eeowynn "Just because people die from illegal things doesn't mean we should make them legal" Abortion isn't Illegal though. It is perfectly legal to get an unwanted clump of cells removed from your body before it grows into anything close to resembling the human being it may or may not develop into. You seem to be forgetting that your argument was that there were "Horrible black market deaths" before abortion was made legal. So my argument was, "How is that a good reason to make it legal?" Quote: By your same argument Just because clumps of cells die from legal things doesn't mean we should make them illegal... If death isn't a reason to change the law, as you put it...then why change the existing one? We are speaking retroactively; "Why was abortion made legal in the first place", not "why should abortion be made illegal now?" "Why should abortion be made illegal now?" Is a whole other can of worms.
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:27 pm
Pyrotechnic Oracle Eeowynn "Just because people die from illegal things doesn't mean we should make them legal" Abortion isn't Illegal though. It is perfectly legal to get an unwanted clump of cells removed from your body before it grows into anything close to resembling the human being it may or may not develop into. By your same argument Just because clumps of cells die from legal things doesn't mean we should make them illegal... If death isn't a reason to change the law, as you put it...then why change the existing one? The vast majority of woman don't even knwo they are pregnant untill after its no longer "A clump of cells." What majority? What percentage and from which source did you get that information? If you have had unprotected sex or the condom split (most common reasons for unwanted pregnancies) then you know there is a chance, and find out asap, even if you took the morning after pill.
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:37 pm
Eeowynn Pyrotechnic Oracle Eeowynn "Just because people die from illegal things doesn't mean we should make them legal" Abortion isn't Illegal though. It is perfectly legal to get an unwanted clump of cells removed from your body before it grows into anything close to resembling the human being it may or may not develop into. By your same argument Just because clumps of cells die from legal things doesn't mean we should make them illegal... If death isn't a reason to change the law, as you put it...then why change the existing one? The vast majority of woman don't even knwo they are pregnant untill after its no longer "A clump of cells." What majority? What percentage and from which source did you get that information? If you have had unprotected sex or the condom split (most common reasons for unwanted pregnancies) then you know there is a chance, and find out asap, even if you took the morning after pill. What source tells you all that? It's true that those are the most common reasons for unwanted pregnancies. But, given the fact that one of them is -unprotected sex- in the first place, you show that part of the reason for many unwanted pregnancies is a sense of invincibility; So they probably wouldn't get a pregnancy test until they have a reason to suspect that they are pregnant. Also, I believe he means biologically; Without any pregnancy tests. And why do you only reply to the simplest posts?
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:10 pm
I.Am Eeowynn Pyrotechnic Oracle Eeowynn "Just because people die from illegal things doesn't mean we should make them legal" Abortion isn't Illegal though. It is perfectly legal to get an unwanted clump of cells removed from your body before it grows into anything close to resembling the human being it may or may not develop into. By your same argument Just because clumps of cells die from legal things doesn't mean we should make them illegal... If death isn't a reason to change the law, as you put it...then why change the existing one? The vast majority of woman don't even knwo they are pregnant untill after its no longer "A clump of cells." What majority? What percentage and from which source did you get that information? If you have had unprotected sex or the condom split (most common reasons for unwanted pregnancies) then you know there is a chance, and find out asap, even if you took the morning after pill. What source tells you all that? It's true that those are the most common reasons for unwanted pregnancies. But, given the fact that one of them is -unprotected sex- in the first place, you show that part of the reason for many unwanted pregnancies is a sense of invincibility; So they probably wouldn't get a pregnancy test until they have a reason to suspect that they are pregnant. Also, I believe he means biologically; Without any pregnancy tests. And why do you only reply to the simplest posts? I got my information from teaching sex education. We had to be prepared to answer questions. Some people may have unprotected sex because they haven't been educated enough to realise that all the myths they hear arent true. Which is precisley why I trained to teach it, to prevent that. I actually tried to do somthing about what I thought was wrong. And I only reply to certain posts because I'm not here to persuade you all or convert you in some way, Im just here to state my opinion and get some feedback on it, so that If I had somthing wrong or weak in my argument I can alter it. If it seems that a point has reached a stalemate, i.e when the critique recieved does not influence my belief in anyway shape or form I see no need for me to reply, and simply let that person have their say.
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:20 pm
Eeowynn I got my information from teaching sex education. We had to be prepared to answer questions. Some people may have unprotected sex because they haven't been educated enough to realise that all the myths they hear arent true. Which is precisley why I trained to teach it, to prevent that. I actually tried to do somthing about what I thought was wrong. Nonetheless, if they have unprotected sex, that means that they probably believe that they are safe from pregnancy. So why would they check it? Quote: And I only reply to certain posts because I'm not here to persuade you all or convert you in some way, Im just here to state my opinion and get some feedback on it, so that If I had somthing wrong or weak in my argument I can alter it. If it seems that a point has reached a stalemate, i.e when the critique recieved does not influence my belief in anyway shape or form I see no need for me to reply, and simply let that person have their say. Well that seems quite rude. So just because the critique doesn't change what you think, you don't reply to it? Maybe I want to improve my arguments as well, hmm?
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:30 pm
I.Am Eeowynn I got my information from teaching sex education. We had to be prepared to answer questions. Some people may have unprotected sex because they haven't been educated enough to realise that all the myths they hear arent true. Which is precisley why I trained to teach it, to prevent that. I actually tried to do somthing about what I thought was wrong. Nonetheless, if they have unprotected sex, that means that they probably believe that they are safe from pregnancy. So why would they check it? Quote: And I only reply to certain posts because I'm not here to persuade you all or convert you in some way, Im just here to state my opinion and get some feedback on it, so that If I had somthing wrong or weak in my argument I can alter it. If it seems that a point has reached a stalemate, i.e when the critique recieved does not influence my belief in anyway shape or form I see no need for me to reply, and simply let that person have their say. Well that seems quite rude. So just because the critique doesn't change what you think, you don't reply to it? Maybe I want to improve my arguments as well, hmm? You do make a very good point there I must say. As to the post replying, fair enough. Although one thing I refuse to do is continue discussions where I feel tension mounts to the point at which it is more of a vicious argument than a political debate. I prefer to back down and let that person have the last word than engage in such conversation.
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:33 pm
Mcphee I fail to see how the child goes from being non-alive, non-person, and non-deserving of life, into someone who is deserving of their live, and is perfectly human, within the span of nine months. That child is ALWAYS alive, and is simply growing, through the pregnancy. A fetus fits the definition of a human organism, in spades. As to your first point. The child starts out as a fertilized egg. Then ends up after 9 months of constant growth and development, an infant. Just as you fail to see how this changes. I fail to see how a ball of 8 cells all of which are unspecialised counts as a person. Simply because cells are alive doesn't make them count as people.
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:35 pm
lymelady Eeowynn lymelady black market abortion would be just like it was before...done in doctor's offices by the same people who do legal abortions now. Those abortionists didn't disappear after they were allowed to practice abortion, they just had government sanction. ...I have yet to hear of a clinical abortion being carried out by anyone with a coat hanger... I have yet to hear of illegal coat hanger abortions being stopped by the legalization of abortion. Perhaps the group of women who still perform abortions on themselves just doesn't know about the legalization of abortion? Coathanger abortions weren't as widely spread as you'd like to think, and the number of deaths from illegal abortions wasn't any higher before RvW than it was afterwards. In Ireland, Abortion is illegal. Every day many women get on a boat to England to have an abortion. Women will go to great lengths to have an abortion legally and clinically if that is an option. If it is no longer an option the women determined to terminate their pregnancy will still do so. Thus I believe the number of non clinical abortions will rise accordingly.
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Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:41 pm
I.Am Eeowynn I.Am Generally, however, ya'll do support abortion being restricted as little as possible; After all, ya'll are always saying that the fetus is not a human being, so ya'll should support unrestricted abortion up until the point that it becomes a human being.Also, just because people die from illegal things doesn't mean we should make them legal. And ya'll don't really seem to care that much about the "fetuses dying horribly" in white-market abortion clinics.That doesn't make any sense. You say that it becomes a person when the woman decides it's a person. So why don't you support unrestricted abortion? If abortion were completely unrestricted, the woman could decide for herself whether it's a person, and not kill it after it becomes a person in her eyes. I personally believe it becomes a person after the first timester.
Anyways, I dont support unrestricted abortion because as I explained before I dont agree with the principle of it except for where the fetus is little more than a clump of cells The placenta and umbilical cord are, I believe, a part of the mother or a part of the child. I'm not sure which. But they do not have full and unique DNA. Quote: See above. As I only believe in abortion to the point where I would consider that ball of cells a person, then I wouldn't consider abortion "killing" anymore than say...having a mole removed as "killing." You can't "kill" what isn't "alive" ... A mole is not scientifically and individually alive, a fetus is. A mole is part of your body, a fetus is not. herein lies the problem - our differing definitions. I would say that the fetus does not count as its own person whilst it is still a ball of cells with no brain function
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