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 Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:47 pm
Chieftain Twilight Renkon Root This pickled vegetable...May I ask what does it matter their reasons? As long as they're doing good (and the rest of society agrees that it is good) they why should their reasons for doing it matter?
A homeless man on the street who is given a sandwich doesn't care whether or not the person who gave it to them did it because it was "the Christian thing to do" or because they wanted to do a good deed. No, all the our hypothetical homeless man cares about is that he has something to eat. ... could kick your a** !! intent matters, because the intent behind something represents that person's Heart, and their Habbits. of course, i am not a materialist, i believe in Spirit and Karma and Energy flowing into, through and around all things. even Thoughts and Feelings are Energy, and so to think or feel a certain way sends those waves of energy out, and attracts Energy that is like it. what you put into the Universe is what you get out of it. that is why it matters the Why. Well spoken
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Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:45 pm
Us Christians also do kind deeds because we enjoy doing it. The motivation is the same. While there are Christians who only give because they feel morally obligated, people who are truly enlightened and filled with the holy spirit get pleasure out of helping others.
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Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:12 pm
Chieftain Twilight Renkon Root This pickled vegetable...May I ask what does it matter their reasons? As long as they're doing good (and the rest of society agrees that it is good) they why should their reasons for doing it matter?
A homeless man on the street who is given a sandwich doesn't care whether or not the person who gave it to them did it because it was "the Christian thing to do" or because they wanted to do a good deed. No, all the our hypothetical homeless man cares about is that he has something to eat. ... could kick your a** !! intent matters, because the intent behind something represents that person's Heart, and their Habbits. of course, i am not a materialist, i believe in Spirit and Karma and Energy flowing into, through and around all things. even Thoughts and Feelings are Energy, and so to think or feel a certain way sends those waves of energy out, and attracts Energy that is like it. what you put into the Universe is what you get out of it. that is why it matters the Why. However, their motive only effects them. It doesn't change their deed or the people it helped. Their reasons for doing good deeds don't matter in this world because their reasons don't effect anything in this world outside of the person themselves. ... could kick your a** !!
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Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:12 pm
G0TH1C G33K Why is it that Christians will do good because they think it's the Christian thing to do when normal people like myself will do a good deed because we want to? This in no way is meant to be mean, I merely noticed that most Christians do nice because they feel they need to. Are you implying Christians aren't 'normal'? >.>...XD Onto the real question: Maybe because when a Christian does good, they're doing it for a reason? I mean, people have a drive in them to do good. Non-theists do good to fulfill that drive, to feel good themselves (I probably got something wrong with that last statement, so apologies to anyone offended and feel free to correct me). Nothing wrong with that; it's a God given drive. A Christian is supposed to go beyond that, and give more then they feel like they're supposed, because of a love for Christ and their fellow man; not to earn brownie points with God. There's tons of people who do it for the brownie points anyways (including me sometimes), but that doesn't mean it's the way it's supposed to be done.
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Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:52 pm
Renkon Root This pickled vegetable...May I ask what does it matter their reasons? As long as they're doing good (and the rest of society agrees that it is good) they why should their reasons for doing it matter?
A homeless man on the street who is given a sandwich doesn't care whether or not the person who gave it to them did it because it was "the Christian thing to do" or because they wanted to do a good deed. No, all the our hypothetical homeless man cares about is that he has something to eat. ... could kick your a** !! I don't see how you can say what matters or what does not. Since people put emphasis on different things, what matters will vary and depend on the individual. Of course the homeless man would probably appreciate the sandwhich. But there's no reason to believe that the only thing he thinks about when he recieves the sandwhich is that he can eat. In fact, I think to say that is to ignore the common complex curiousness of human nature and compare him to a simple minded animal. Not to mention you're just making assertions into what the subjective experience of a homeless man recieving a sandwhich is. Care to prove how you know what this homeless man is thinking? I don't mean what you may or may not reasonably believe what he's thinking, but what you know he's thinking? And apparently only thinking.
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Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:55 pm
xxEternallyBluexx G0TH1C G33K Why is it that Christians will do good because they think it's the Christian thing to do when normal people like myself will do a good deed because we want to? This in no way is meant to be mean, I merely noticed that most Christians do nice because they feel they need to. Are you implying Christians aren't 'normal'? >.>...XD Onto the real question: Maybe because when a Christian does good, they're doing it for a reason? I mean, people have a drive in them to do good. Non-theists do good to fulfill that drive, to feel good themselves (I probably got something wrong with that last statement, so apologies to anyone offended and feel free to correct me). Nothing wrong with that; it's a God given drive. A Christian is supposed to go beyond that, and give more then they feel like they're supposed, because of a love for Christ and their fellow man; not to earn brownie points with God. There's tons of people who do it for the brownie points anyways (including me sometimes), but that doesn't mean it's the way it's supposed to be done.
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Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:04 pm
Aakosir xxEternallyBluexx G0TH1C G33K Why is it that Christians will do good because they think it's the Christian thing to do when normal people like myself will do a good deed because we want to? This in no way is meant to be mean, I merely noticed that most Christians do nice because they feel they need to. Are you implying Christians aren't 'normal'? >.>...XD Onto the real question: Maybe because when a Christian does good, they're doing it for a reason? I mean, people have a drive in them to do good. Non-theists do good to fulfill that drive, to feel good themselves (I probably got something wrong with that last statement, so apologies to anyone offended and feel free to correct me). Nothing wrong with that; it's a God given drive. A Christian is supposed to go beyond that, and give more then they feel like they're supposed, because of a love for Christ and their fellow man; not to earn brownie points with God. There's tons of people who do it for the brownie points anyways (including me sometimes), but that doesn't mean it's the way it's supposed to be done. I'd be one of the worst people to define that, because I don't consider myself normal, but I suppose 'normal' would be whatever the majority is. I don't really like the term, which is why I wasn't really insulted; I just think it's strange Gothic considers atheists 'normal', when Christians outnumber atheists, and basically every other belief.
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Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:12 pm
xxEternallyBluexx Aakosir xxEternallyBluexx G0TH1C G33K Why is it that Christians will do good because they think it's the Christian thing to do when normal people like myself will do a good deed because we want to? This in no way is meant to be mean, I merely noticed that most Christians do nice because they feel they need to. Are you implying Christians aren't 'normal'? >.>...XD Onto the real question: Maybe because when a Christian does good, they're doing it for a reason? I mean, people have a drive in them to do good. Non-theists do good to fulfill that drive, to feel good themselves (I probably got something wrong with that last statement, so apologies to anyone offended and feel free to correct me). Nothing wrong with that; it's a God given drive. A Christian is supposed to go beyond that, and give more then they feel like they're supposed, because of a love for Christ and their fellow man; not to earn brownie points with God. There's tons of people who do it for the brownie points anyways (including me sometimes), but that doesn't mean it's the way it's supposed to be done. I'd be one of the worst people to define that, because I don't consider myself normal, but I suppose 'normal' would be whatever the majority is. I don't really like the term, which is why I wasn't really insulted; I just think it's strange Gothic considers atheists 'normal', when Christians outnumber atheists, and basically every other belief.
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Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:17 pm
Renkon Root Chieftain Twilight Renkon Root This pickled vegetable...May I ask what does it matter their reasons? As long as they're doing good (and the rest of society agrees that it is good) they why should their reasons for doing it matter?
A homeless man on the street who is given a sandwich doesn't care whether or not the person who gave it to them did it because it was "the Christian thing to do" or because they wanted to do a good deed. No, all the our hypothetical homeless man cares about is that he has something to eat. ... could kick your a** !! intent matters, because the intent behind something represents that person's Heart, and their Habbits. of course, i am not a materialist, i believe in Spirit and Karma and Energy flowing into, through and around all things. even Thoughts and Feelings are Energy, and so to think or feel a certain way sends those waves of energy out, and attracts Energy that is like it. what you put into the Universe is what you get out of it. that is why it matters the Why. However, their motive only effects them. It doesn't change their deed or the people it helped. Their reasons for doing good deeds don't matter in this world because their reasons don't effect anything in this world outside of the person themselves. ... could kick your a** !! I'd have to disagree with the statement that the motive cannot change or effect the person who is helped. A person who is helped may not be shallow or superficial about it, and because of this may take an interest in why he was helped. For example a depressed person may be helped. Maybe they become undepressed simply for the fact that somebody cares. But if this depressed person found out that this other person only helped him because doing so got him(helper) into a great club, then there's no reason to assume that the depressed person is not repulsed by this motive or feels a sense of betrayal, because there was no genuine care for him. So he regresses back into a state of depression when he believed nobody cared about him. So again what matters to somebody greatly depends on what they put emphasis on.
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:38 am
Aakosir xxEternallyBluexx Aakosir xxEternallyBluexx G0TH1C G33K Why is it that Christians will do good because they think it's the Christian thing to do when normal people like myself will do a good deed because we want to? This in no way is meant to be mean, I merely noticed that most Christians do nice because they feel they need to. Are you implying Christians aren't 'normal'? >.>...XD Onto the real question: Maybe because when a Christian does good, they're doing it for a reason? I mean, people have a drive in them to do good. Non-theists do good to fulfill that drive, to feel good themselves (I probably got something wrong with that last statement, so apologies to anyone offended and feel free to correct me). Nothing wrong with that; it's a God given drive. A Christian is supposed to go beyond that, and give more then they feel like they're supposed, because of a love for Christ and their fellow man; not to earn brownie points with God. There's tons of people who do it for the brownie points anyways (including me sometimes), but that doesn't mean it's the way it's supposed to be done. I'd be one of the worst people to define that, because I don't consider myself normal, but I suppose 'normal' would be whatever the majority is. I don't really like the term, which is why I wasn't really insulted; I just think it's strange Gothic considers atheists 'normal', when Christians outnumber atheists, and basically every other belief. Uh i guess 'normal' was the wrong word, i wasn't referring to any specific person or persons. I meant it as average.
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:13 am
"Christians" are not actually Christians unless they know what Jesus taught, which was:
"8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8-10)
They are "Christian" only insomuch as they follow this loving spirit.
Other people besides Christians have chosen to follow the same spirit. Why? Because it feels good. It's a peaceful way to behave.
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Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:54 am
Looks like we are getting into a faith vs. works type of argument here. Personally for me, I think both the intent and the action are necessary and complementary. If one is do the act but there is no intention behind an act then it's just thoughtlessness regardless if it's good or not. If one intends to do something but does not do it the intention is empty words.
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Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:37 am
G0TH1C G33K Aakosir xxEternallyBluexx Aakosir xxEternallyBluexx G0TH1C G33K Why is it that Christians will do good because they think it's the Christian thing to do when normal people like myself will do a good deed because we want to? This in no way is meant to be mean, I merely noticed that most Christians do nice because they feel they need to. Are you implying Christians aren't 'normal'? >.>...XD Onto the real question: Maybe because when a Christian does good, they're doing it for a reason? I mean, people have a drive in them to do good. Non-theists do good to fulfill that drive, to feel good themselves (I probably got something wrong with that last statement, so apologies to anyone offended and feel free to correct me). Nothing wrong with that; it's a God given drive. A Christian is supposed to go beyond that, and give more then they feel like they're supposed, because of a love for Christ and their fellow man; not to earn brownie points with God. There's tons of people who do it for the brownie points anyways (including me sometimes), but that doesn't mean it's the way it's supposed to be done. I'd be one of the worst people to define that, because I don't consider myself normal, but I suppose 'normal' would be whatever the majority is. I don't really like the term, which is why I wasn't really insulted; I just think it's strange Gothic considers atheists 'normal', when Christians outnumber atheists, and basically every other belief. Uh i guess 'normal' was the wrong word, i wasn't referring to any specific person or persons. I meant it as average.
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Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:54 pm
G0TH1C G33K You all make good points. Like I said, it doesn't mean all Christians do good cuz they feel they have too. It's just that to many times i've seen Christians go "I don't want to but Jesus would so i have to also" And i'm in no way saying Christians are the only people who don't do good cuz they want to. I think that the response you mentioned here has quite a lot of validity. Ultimately, Christians choose to be Christian because they want to. The reasons why are different from person to person, but if they don't want to follow a religion, then A. they likely won't model their lives around it too much, or B. they'll find a new (or no) religion. Now, once you choose to be Christian, you can either be a bit wishy washy about things, not giving to charities, going to Church, praying, etc. because you just don't feel like it at the time, or you can commit yourself to following through completely with the religion you've chosen. I don't always want to do good things. I don't always want to donate money I could use to by stuff for myself to charities. I don't always want to sit in a hot room because I won't buy an air conditioner in an attempt to use less energy. I don't always want to go to mass on Sundays. But I do want to please God. Some people may see not wanting to always do good things as being unchristian, but to the contrary, it's actually very Christ-like. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Christ did not want to die. In fact, he prayed to God to get him out of it at first, but eventually told his father, "Your will, and not mine be done." As Christians, we recognize that God's plan is good, and that we must make the choice to participate in that plan, sometimes in big ways, and sometimes in small ways. This sometimes means forgoing what we want for the greater good. In my mind, this is something that separates dedicated Christians from Atheists. It's not that atheists can't or don't do as much good individually as Christians do. It's that they don't have one common belief to drive them to do good even when they don't necessarily feel like doing so. Some individuals have personal beliefs and philosophies that drive them to do good even when they don't necessarily feel like it anyway, but the nature of atheism makes these personal reasons just that: personal. (note that I did not include undedicated Christians, as they tend to let their own wants override the desire to do God's will from time to time. Also note that Christians may waver throughout their lives between dedicated and undedicated. Sometimes we loose sight of what's really important to us, and the drive to do good somehow becomes more . . . flexible.)
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Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:06 pm
Mythsysizer Renkon Root Chieftain Twilight Renkon Root This pickled vegetable...May I ask what does it matter their reasons? As long as they're doing good (and the rest of society agrees that it is good) they why should their reasons for doing it matter?
A homeless man on the street who is given a sandwich doesn't care whether or not the person who gave it to them did it because it was "the Christian thing to do" or because they wanted to do a good deed. No, all the our hypothetical homeless man cares about is that he has something to eat. ... could kick your a** !! intent matters, because the intent behind something represents that person's Heart, and their Habbits. of course, i am not a materialist, i believe in Spirit and Karma and Energy flowing into, through and around all things. even Thoughts and Feelings are Energy, and so to think or feel a certain way sends those waves of energy out, and attracts Energy that is like it. what you put into the Universe is what you get out of it. that is why it matters the Why. However, their motive only effects them. It doesn't change their deed or the people it helped. Their reasons for doing good deeds don't matter in this world because their reasons don't effect anything in this world outside of the person themselves. ... could kick your a** !! I'd have to disagree with the statement that the motive cannot change or effect the person who is helped. A person who is helped may not be shallow or superficial about it, and because of this may take an interest in why he was helped. For example a depressed person may be helped. Maybe they become undepressed simply for the fact that somebody cares. But if this depressed person found out that this other person only helped him because doing so got him(helper) into a great club, then there's no reason to assume that the depressed person is not repulsed by this motive or feels a sense of betrayal, because there was no genuine care for him. So he regresses back into a state of depression when he believed nobody cared about him. So again what matters to somebody greatly depends on what they put emphasis on. Well said. I think you and Renkon both have good points. As Renkon suggests, there are some instances where motive doesn't really matter to anyone other than the person doing the act itself, or at the very least, it doesn't matter much. However, as you pointed out, society and human interactions actually makes the issue much more complex. Example: I see my neighbor outside one day putting some items in the recycling bins. Do I care why my neighbors recycle? My first thought would be no. I'm just happy they're doing it. But in thinking harder about it, I realize that my answer is actually yes. Are they recycling because their mother is visiting for the weekend and insists on it? Or are they recycling because they want to do their part to cut down on energy use and all that jazz? I care why they're recycling because I care whether this is just a one time occurrence or whether it indicates habitual actions. In this instance, the only reason I would care about motive is in order to determine future actions from the person, but there are more complicated cases than this, which you touched on with the depression example. It's important to remember that, as isolated as we can sometimes feel our actions are, a lot of times they aren't.
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